Should an internship be a humiliating experience ?

[Washington]

Having stumbled over a few threads on the subject of internship recently (particularly one entitled "The Angry Intern"), I'm quite perplexed by some comments and would appreciate your opinion.

Before I start, let me stress out that I have never applied for internship anywhere, nor intend to do so. This is out of sheer curiosity.

Here is what bugs me : there seems to be a tendency - at least among some ingeneers on this board - to consider internship a "boot camp" to engineering, and to portray both parties more or less like a drill sargeant training a recruit. This is an image of course, I haven't heard anybody wording things in such terms. In other words, internship often seems to be a necessarily horrible experience, intended only to challenge a guy's willingness to work in a studio. I'd rather see interning as the first step in a long and proper engineering studies course. In my book, learning does not imply force. Is this naive?

I understand some of what can lead to that, particularly the fact that an appropriate behavior is an absolute necessity which must be fully integrated before dealing directly with clients in a studio. What perplexes me is the sometimes apparent necessity for this appropriate behavior to be taught through, for example, constant threat of terminating internship or any kind of humiliation.

I don't live in a Mary Poppins world, and I'm no hippie. I know perfectly how much sweat, hard work and abnegation it takes to reach one's goal, and I've pissed my share of blood along the way. I do NOT mean or even suppose interns should not make coffee, run errands or go buy candy bars. All that is perfectly legitimate : some guy is there to absorb the "life and knowledge" in a recording facility, he might as well do something in return and be useful. Working in this business is not a job for whiny boys, so much is clear, and interns clean toilets for free. Fine with me if they willingly do so, long as the reason for it is to have a clean bathroom. If it rather means to teach some kid a lesson in life because "it builds character", I don't get it. it seems to me that this kind of job belongs to the kids parents, not to an audio engineer however experienced he may be.

[The Byre]

I have never asked an intern to clean a lavatory, though I have asked them to hoover the floors now and then. Mostly, I expect them to learn the job and help out during recordings and learn stuff like wiring and maintenance.

The intern of today may be the visiting engineer (and therefore possibly a customer) of tomorrow.

[Stuartd]

I've never interned in a studio because, although I like the thought of working in a studio from time to time - I've never wanted to make a career out of it.

Nothing wrong with making coffee and cleaning toilets. If you owned your own studio you'd need to do those things yourself anyway. It's not demeaning work at all as long as it's handled correctly.

The treatment of one person by another person, or persons, can be demeaning, and I can see a music studio envrionment being just that sort of environment (seems like a whole lot of people will do most anything to work in a fully-equipped studio). But it doesn't have to be (and shouldn't). As long as mutual respect is in play I see nothing wrong with it.

"If it rather means to teach some kid a lesson in life because "it builds character", I don't get it. it seems to me that this kind of job belongs to the kids parents, not to an audio engineer however experienced he may be."

I agree. If the person doesn't have sufficient character s/he should'nt be allowed anywhere near a studio environment. A Studio intern should be learning studio work - not character building, IMHO.

Stu

[Toro]

For me it comes down to who you're working for, here in NY its very demanding and competitive If you respect or better yet admire the people you work for than its all good. The real problem its mediocre interns from "school" working at top class studios or highly advance interns working in mediocre studios

[Musiclab]

No it shouldn't be a humiliating experience, I think I'm fairly generous about teaching.
I'm a one man shop so here the intern gets to be more of an assistant. I have a fair amount of unattended work and on those session the intern gets some hands on, usually recording me. I do expect them to clean up but I never got the intern as unpaid slave thing

[narcoman]

our interns, as far as bein gteat boy and toilet cleaner go, only do it as often as anyone else working here.

Toilet cleaning? Well - actually our cleaner does all that.

Tea making? take it in turns but my asst does it for me more than I for him.....e

[six_wax]

Only if you have an ego.

(And I mean that in the most philosophical sense.)

[ejbragg]

Originally Posted by Washington

Having stumbled over a few threads on the subject of internship recently (particularly one entitled "The Angry Intern"), I'm quite perplexed by some comments and would appreciate your opinion.
....
Here is what bugs me : there seems to be a tendency - at least among some ingeneers on this board - to consider internship a "boot camp" to engineering, and to portray both parties more or less like a drill sargeant training a recruit.

I find this a VERY interesting question, ESPECIALLY in this particular industry. I am not aware of any other industry where an intern is expected to lend a hand for free, yet in recording studios, this apparently happens all the time.

As an example, back in 1994, I was an intern for Motorola, Inc., working in the cellular and paging industry. As a first term intern, I made $500 / week, plus bonuses, if our department did well. And it always did! Over the years, I side-stepped electronics to get myself into the audio industry and eventually landed a job in a small commercial studio as the studio manager / 1st engineer. My first day on the job, I was introduced to a young man who I was told was my "new intern"! I really had no idea what to do with him - I didn't even really know how this particular studio ran their business.

Over the next year, I took over the internship program... in fact, there really was no "program"! So I created one. With approval from the studio staff, I created a 3-phase internship based on a college semester time line, about 550 hours per "phase". It went something like this...

Phase I:
--------
Every week, I held a 2-hour classroom session where I taught things such as basic electron flow, conductor types & theories (why XLR or TRS is superior to simple 1/4" cable, etc), and basic mixer use, microphone placement, audio (hearing) tests, and basic ProTools use. The first phase intern never worked on a client project, but near the end, they were assigned a final project of their own - to record their own (or a friend's) project with a loose time line, and with a lot of guidance to get it right - if needed. NO INTERN WAS EXPECTED TO MAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S COFFEE OR RUN ERRANDS. However, because we were a small commercial studio, EVERYONE cleaned house, including toilets, dusting, vacuuming, and so on. This position was considered no-pay, volunteered position only, and satisfactory completion meant they would be invited back for Phase 2, to start making some money.

Phase II:
--------
Classroom teaching on more advanced subjects, such as an in-depth look at compression, acoustics in the control and tracking rooms (reflection, absorption, & diffusion, & related subjects), recording and mixing styles for different genres, etc. These interns would be in charge of small customer projects and the level of supervision would shift from high to low over the period. These interns would make a percentage of the projects they successfully completed. They would also assist in coordinating and set-up of the larger projects, and were exposed to planning discussions w/ the clients. Their final project consisted of their own 3-song demo project with strict goals and deadlines. The project was carried out under silent but close supervision (grading!)... this was really meant to ensure the intern would enter the project with a serious attitude and is meant to challenge him/her with all the responsibilities they earlier perceived as a "stand-by". As usual, studio cleaning was required and carried out by everyone weekly.

Phase III:
----------
Classroom teaching on advanced topics, but generally, the intern begins to choose the areas of interest. By nature, this could lead to some assigned time for self-motivated research on the intern's part and a report written on findings, bi-weekly, to the audio or media staff. This position paid a higher percentage of the projects, and the level & responsibility of the projects is expected to shift from intermediate to high (as in practically no supervision, except before client is called to pick up final project). Final project is the complete coordination of full CD project - tabulating the music, assessing the instruments needed-that is - if no outside producer is called in, setting up the musicians / tracking time, managing the recording process, mixing the project, adding final touches, sending the final mix to the mastering studio, assisting (with primary responsibility) the graphic department with text and artwork for the CD, sending the project to the CD house, and inspecting the samples before giving the thumbs up; the whole time, working very closely with the customer every step of the way. This is a very strictly monitored and graded project. If all goes well, upon "graduation", they are hired back as an assistant engineer.

Note that as managers / leaders / primary engineers, we all speak very loudly without opening our mouths. In other words what we do as a supervisor is what our interns will strive to do. If you're too good to clean the toilet, don't expect your assistant to appreciate having to do it. You will only eventually become resented.

I don't see anything wrong with pushing your intern to teach them what they need to know. But it should be done in a positive way. Let them be the ones to decide if they're cut out for the work, because WORK is what it IS!

[DJamesGoody]

This is one of those questions that lives in that big 'ole grey area, and frankly has no real answer. My personal feeling is that while my internship was on balance, horrible and humiliating, it also taught me certain things that have proven a million times over, to be invaluable and priceless. I would never take it back, nor do I wish it was different from what it actually was.

For starters, cleaning toilets, etc...... shows you what is required to make a studio a comfortable and seamless facility. It keeps you humble, which honestly, is an absolute necessity in my opinion. Most importantly, it teaches you (by default) about comfort for the people working in the studio - which someday you yourself will appreciate when you're on the other side of it. Comfort is something that crosses over into every facet of record making, not the least of which is the nuts and bolts of studio operations.

As for the issue of non-pay, I have struggled with this, and have to admit that as of 7:35 PM tonight, I feel as though it would be a detriment to the intern to be paid. I say this for a specific reason...... that reason is palpable and concrete: I believe that if one has a true inner passion for doing this line of work, they will learn more thoroughly if they do so voluntarily, and without the cloud of monetary incentive.

I think that in most cases that I've witnessed, a paid internship cheapens the learning process, and it also fails to weed out those who aren't deeply passionate about the craft of recording. These days especially, while it may be hard to swallow, that sense of pride in learning, and that pure education is ever more important. Being paid to do something always has the inevitable consequence of becoming eventually about money itself, and it is up to the individual to keep those sensations in check. The pragmatic reality is that most people can't keep it in check.

In addition, a lot of young interns today have a built in sense of entitlement, something I see as a major fault, and a trait that will be further bolstered by a paid position. By volunteering, or apprenticing (as I prefer to call it), there is no entitlement, and your decisions are made based mostly on how much you genuinely want or love your work.

Again, I can't overstate that this is through my own personal filter. All I can say is that if I had been taught how to use the patchbay and setting up mics on that first day, instead of making coffee and cleaning toilets, I would not be the professional I am now, or I'd at least be very different, and frankly, I am quite happy where and who I am, so take it for what its worth.

[jpupo74]

No.

[superburtm]

it was for me....hello toilet bowl

[Washington]

Originally Posted by ejbragg

Over the next year, I took over the internship program... in fact, there really was no "program"! So I created one. With approval from the studio staff, I created a 3-phase internship based on a college semester time line, about 550 hours per "phase". It went something like this...

An absolutely intelligent, generous and adult approach IMO. Would I plan to be an intern, that would be an opportunity I'd look at with respect and gratitude, and that would give me a honorable reason to meet the expectations with all my might. Just me, though.

However, because we were a small commercial studio, EVERYONE cleaned house, including toilets, dusting, vacuuming, and so on. This position was considered no-pay, volunteered position only, and satisfactory completion meant they would be invited back for Phase 2, to start making some money.

Toilets got to be clean, right ? And far as I'm concerned, interns may have to take care of it, it's accpetable even if they'd be alone on this. Again, if it's for the sake of a neat place to work at, fine.

I don't see anything wrong with pushing your intern to teach them what they need to know. But it should be done in a positive way. Let them be the ones to decide if they're cut out for the work, because WORK is what it IS!

To make things clear, I don't believe that learning such a demanding craft as audio engineering can be a picnic. My concerns is all about the way (and the reason) one should sweat for.


DJGoody :

For starters, cleaning toilets, etc...... shows you what is required to make a studio a comfortable and seamless facility. It keeps you humble, which honestly, is an absolute necessity in my opinion. Most importantly, it teaches you (by default) about comfort for the people working in the studio - which someday you yourself will appreciate when you're on the other side of it. Comfort is something that crosses over into every facet of record making, not the least of which is the nuts and bolts of studio operations.

I absolutely agree about the humility required for the job. On a personal note, I would just ponder the way it should be taught. I think I could gather the concept without necessarily being humiliated, but again - I haven't interned.

[drBill]

Humiliating? No.

Humbleness? Yes.

Being an engineer is a service business - and a lot of the younger guys seem to think it's ALL about them as opposed to being about the client. For some, it takes a long time to learn.

And in the learning process, depending on one's attitude, I could see it as being labeled "humiliating". But I think that's mis-labeled IMO. We all have to pay dues, and many just out of school think they're ready for the big time.

Personally, I take a lot of one on one hand holding and personal effort for anyone that comes to work with me. I consider it an honor to give back.....BUT unless they show that they are worth my effort, they'll get dropped faster than fast. No need for humiliation, just an unearthly sense of dedication and drive. If they show that, I'll make THEIR cofffee. thumbsup

[oradii]

It definitely should not be a humiliating experience. I also do not necessarily feel that it needs to be a paid position either, especially if it is not a 'humiliating' experience.

When I made the decision to try and begin an internship it was to increase my knowledge by watching and working with someone with experience. The internship requires maturity and strong work ethic on my part, and in exchange I gain the knowledge that I seek.

Outside of just learning there are many opportunities to make contacts with other people in the industry. If you have the respect of the person you are working under, you will almost always gain the respect from people they introduce you too.

An internship should be about building up your skill sets for use in the future, not for hazing someone like they are joining a frat or gang.

[DJBlueDrink]

Just putting this out there.

If anyone in the NYC area is in need of an intern who is familiar with the studio environment, knows how to conduct themselves during a session, and has no problem cleaning(was a custodian from 16-18), send me a PM. I can produce recommendations if required as well.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by oradii

It definitely should not be a humiliating experience. I also do not necessarily feel that it needs to be a paid position either, especially if it is not a 'humiliating' experience.

When I made the decision to try and begin an internship it was to increase my knowledge by watching and working with someone with experience. The internship requires maturity and strong work ethic on my part, and in exchange I gain the knowledge that I seek.

Outside of just learning there are many opportunities to make contacts with other people in the industry. If you have the respect of the person you are working under, you will almost always gain the respect from people they introduce you too.

An internship should be about building up your skill sets for use in the future, not for hazing someone like they are joining a frat or gang.

Absolutely true, im never mean with an intern, nor do i ask them to clean the bathrooms and stuff like that, as long as they know how to behave and as long as they dont make comments such as "dont you think the bass is too high?" or " why dont you play it like this..." then everything is ok,

Also if they understand theres a time for education and a time for work, then everything should be ok

I remember a guy who when i was in the middle of a recording asking the drummer to hit the kick, eq'ing, whatever, he suddenly said :

"man, i want to ask you something.." and i was like "ok, what?", he replied "can you explain me what impedance is?", and i was like "hmmm not right now.."

Im pollite with them and i understand that they want to learn, but the timing couldnt be worse....

[oradii]

I am confident that most 'professionals' that take on a intern expect their intern to act professionally as well.

It is just really hard for me to imagine a scenario where someone would want to belittle their student.

[ejbragg]

Originally Posted by drBill

No need for humiliation, just an unearthly sense of dedication and drive. If they show that, I'll make THEIR coffee. thumbsup

I appreciate and agree with that comment!!

Originally Posted by dualflip

Absolutely true, im never mean with an intern, nor do i ask them to clean the bathrooms and stuff like that, as long as they know how to behave and as long as they dont make comments such as "dont you think the bass is too high?" or " why dont you play it like this..." then everything is ok,

Got to be careful with this. I think one should allow a learning intern to ask just such questions, as long as they have a respectful attitude. No two people hear or mix alike, & it would be a mistake to expect ANYONE to agree with everything you do. People having different opinions is, after all, the basis for free countries. And allowing such questions without ridicule will encourage them to be able to begin to form their own opinions and grow in competence & confidence.

One example: One intern asked me about a guitar part they thought was too buried. I asked them how they would set it and in fact the project was split: I made a copy of my work and allowed them their own mix version. After some discussion - and even a bit of argument!, I decided to allow them to do with it what they thought best. When the customer arrived, we set them down and told them we had one version mixed by the intern, who wanted their mix to be heard, but we didn't explain which (it was a very easy-going client who had some time anyway). They chose my mix (whew!!) for the same reasons I had earlier argued. The intern decided that maybe he was wrong after all and was more careful to listen to suggestions afterward.

I believe you can teach lessons without "teaching them a LESSON"! This intern became a very good and usable engineer whom we later paid for their work. Although I may have internally felt some frustration, my own work insight spoke for itself. And the whole situation turned out for the better, as this person respected me for allowing them a "shot" & realized they weren't as ready as they had thought, after all.

By the way, if an intern starts cranking out work that the customers prefer more than yours, 50% of the time or more, time to HIRE THEM! And quickly, before they leave and become your competitor!!

[initialsBB]

As someone outside of the industry who has never worked in the studio, I find it a bit odd how engineers seem at times to struggle with respect for their field. Everyone thinks they can do it themselves now at home and sometimes people tend to devalue the contributions and expertise of pro engineers. Yet at the same time they start their careers by cleaning toilets and getting coffee. There seems to be a gap there to me but I could be wrong.

As a designer I work in a vaguely similar field: partly technical, mostly creative, but with the creativity always directed toward a client's needs and goals. Basically another creative service industry. And nobody that I've ever met or heard of has had to start out cleaning toilets.

Obviously interns should have to do a lot of the boring grunt work that nobody else wants to do and that can help teach them a good work ethic and attention to detail. But it seems to me that should be stuff like soldering, gear cleaning and maintenance, organizing files, etc. rather than custodial work. But what do I know.

I've seen a lot of posts where people are lamenting the death of the big studios because it's killing the incredibly valuable apprenticeship route that has existed for decades. But if a kid just out of high school has the choice between cleaning toilets and buying a few pieces of cheap gear and figuring it out himself, who's to blame him for choosing the latter?

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by ejbragg

Got to be careful with this. I think one should allow a learning intern to ask just such questions, as long as they have a respectful attitude. No two people hear or mix alike, & it would be a mistake to expect ANYONE to agree with everything you do. People having different opinions is, after all, the basis for free countries. And allowing such questions without ridicule will encourage them to be able to begin to form their own opinions and grow in competence & confidence.

Yeah, but i actually meant not in front of the clients....

[teo]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Yeah, but i actually meant not in front of the clients....

Yep...
Even as a long time assistant with the same boss/engineer, and even if in that studio the atmosphere was quite relaxed, I would either shut up in front of clients, or more often get near the engineer and whisper whatever I wanted to communicate...

[drBill]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

As someone outside of the industry who has never worked in the studio,

OK, well that explains some things. Thanks for the info. thumbsup

Originally Posted by initialsBB

But if a kid just out of high school has the choice between cleaning toilets and buying a few pieces of cheap gear and figuring it out himself, who's to blame him for choosing the latter?

I wouldn't BLAME him for an instant. But I think it's short sighted and probably the wrong career choice if he wants to engineer full time for real clients. The traditional path is still the way to go IMO. That's predicated on a big IF though. The people you are interning for MUST be dedicated to helping you with your knowledge and learning, not just lookiing for a free toilet cleaner. Those types are still out there, but they are very frustrated at sifting thru the riff-raff that don't have the dedication that it takes.

[Synonym Music]

Originally Posted by drBill

I wouldn't BLAME him for an instant. But I think it's short sighted and probably the wrong career choice if he wants to engineer full time for real clients. The traditional path is still the way to go IMO. That's predicated on a big IF though. The people you are interning for MUST be dedicated to helping you with your knowledge and learning, not just lookiing for a free toilet cleaner. Those types are still out there, but they are very frustrated at sifting thru the riff-raff that don't have the dedication that it takes.

True.

I wouldn't mind cleaning toilets or anything because... Hmm.. I've done it my entire lifetime so far, nothing would really change. That's certainly not the only thing I'm there for, though.

[teo]

Originally Posted by drBill

I wouldn't BLAME him for an instant. But I think it's short sighted and probably the wrong career choice if he wants to engineer full time for real clients. The traditional path is still the way to go IMO. That's predicated on a big IF though. The people you are interning for MUST be dedicated to helping you with your knowledge and learning, not just lookiing for a free toilet cleaner. Those types are still out there, but they are very frustrated at sifting thru the riff-raff that don't have the dedication that it takes.

Very true.
Still, I'm happy that I was never asked to clean a toilet. I got through everything else:

Picking hard drives up from the clients houses: check
Doing non-studio related errands for my boss some 20 miles away: check
Doing renovation and maintenance (drilling, installing a security system, running power cables): check
Moving and getting in place some half a ton of gravel for the studio entrance: check

But I never cleaned a toilet. Would I have done it? Yes. But still, every major studio has one or more hired janitors, so why the f##k should the assistant clean the toilet.
Here in Italy when you get out of law school, and before you become a practicing lawyer, you have to go through two years of (mostly unpaid) apprenticeship, where you put in 20 hours a day and get treated like shit. But nobody is ever asked to clean a toilet. Just saying...

Nothing wrong with cleaning toilets, it's just a different line of work, that's all.

[RTR]

Originally Posted by teo

Very true.
Still, I'm happy that I was never asked to clean a toilet. I got through everything else:

Picking hard drives up from the clients houses: check
Doing non-studio related errands for my boss some 20 miles away: check
Doing renovation and maintenance (drilling, installing a security system, running power cables): check
Moving and getting in place some half a ton of gravel for the studio entrance: check

But I never cleaned a toilet. Would I have done it? Yes. But still, every major studio has one or more hired janitors, so why the f##k should the assistant clean the toilet.
Here in Italy when you get out of law school, and before you become a practicing lawyer, you have to go through two years of (mostly unpaid) apprenticeship, where you put in 20 hours a day and get treated like shit. But nobody is ever asked to clean a toilet. Just saying...

Nothing wrong with cleaning toilets, it's just a different line of work, that's all.

I would rather clean toilets than spread the gravel, seems like a no brainer. I know you did not have a choice but, whats so damn bad about cleaning toilets..I wounder what some of these guy's bathrooms at home look like..yuk!!

I would clean toilets all day and smile while I was doing it to be able to do what I love to do and learn from a PRO!!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by teo

Nothing wrong with cleaning toilets, it's just a different line of work, that's all.

I think people refer to "cleaning toilets" metaphorically. You know, doing the kind of low end, non-music or studio related jobs like you were asked to do.

[teo]

Originally Posted by RTR

I would rather clean toilets than spread the gravel, seems like a no brainer. I know you did not have a choice but, whats so damn bad about cleaning toilets..I wounder what some of these guy's bathrooms at home look like..yuk!!

I would clean toilets all day and smile while I was doing it to be able to do what I love to do and learn from a PRO!!

Again, nothing wrong with cleaning toilets. I do it regularly in MY studio now.
I just wonder why, since all these big studios already have people coming in regularly to clean up the place, they make a point of making interns cleaning the toilet.
When I was hired, I was not told I would have to spread the gravel, but when it had to be done, the boss asked me if I could do it. Not that I had a choice really, but it was not an every day (or week) occurrence. If he called me in the morning saying "Look, the cleaning up guy called in sick and we have a client coming in at 12, could you clean the toilet, I would have done it, no problem. But I question why people are hired with the specific chore of (on top of assisting, doing backups, soldering, troubleshooting, setting up and tearing down for sessions) cleaning the toilets! Makes no sense to me really...
I have to say that I was the assistant, here in Italy only a couple of studios hire interns, most places (even major studios) are single room studios. Therefore, I kind of jumped on the assistant seat right away, not without having my ass handed to me on a plate on more than one occasion!

It's only my opinion anyway, I don't really want to make such a big issue about cleaning toilets. I just wanted to say that, like somebody said before, interning and assisting should be an humbling and revealing experience, but not an humiliating one. Cleaning toilets for free just to show that you are committed to the job is a bit humiliating for me.
YMMV

[soundbarnfool]

Originally Posted by DJBlueDrink

Just putting this out there.

If anyone in the NYC area is in need of an intern who is familiar with the studio environment, knows how to conduct themselves during a session, and has no problem cleaning(was a custodian from 16-18), send me a PM. I can produce recommendations if required as well.

There's a good attitude. Too bad I'm in Nashville.

Inglewood SoundBarn

[teo]

Originally Posted by drBill

I think people refer to "cleaning toilets" metaphorically. You know, doing the kind of low end, non-music or studio related jobs like you were asked to do.

Uh, ok...
I guess this is just me being thick then...

[conquer12]

Generally I think the smaller the studio, the more respect you will get. Most of my peers who did their internship at a bigger studio were cleaning toilets for a good couple months. the ones who went to a mid size studio got to make coffee and make runs across town. I went to a smaller studio owned by an independent engineer, and he would always let me handle the tracking while he went to use the bathroom, or was in the studio proper, producing the artists.

Can't say I ever had to clean any toilets, the owner of our building took care of that. I took out the garbage a few times. But mostly I made edits for mix sessions and set up microphones, even while still in audio school. Of course going to the bigger studio is going to look slightly better on your resume, but in this day and age the quality of the musicians coming in are about the same.