Engineer business etiquette/protocol

[4 the Max]

1. I hired an engineer on an hourly rate to track a 2 hour performance by a musician. He has a non-competition agreement not to work with clients he has tracked in my studio.

2. My contract with the musician says that the engineer has non-competition a agreement with me.

3. The musician subsequently became friends with the engineer, or vice versa. I think that my engineer pursued a relationship with the musician after meeting him in my studio.

4. Subsequently, the engineer phoned me and told me EVERYTHING that is wrong about my studio and business with the intentions of "helping me" and asked to borrow some of my equipment for a live sound job with this musician.

I don't know what transpired between this engineer and musician outside of my studio.

5. Now the musician wants to make his next album with this engineer who tracked his album.

6. He also wants to use this engineer to mix the project that he was paid to track in my studio.

7. I feel that this engineer has bad business etiquette, is mixing (no pun intended) into my business affairs, and going beyond the line of being the hired help.

8. Other engineers that I have used have not gotten involved with my clients outside of projects done in my studio.

What do you think about this situation?

How do other studios handle competition/non-competition with just hired help?

[fossaree]

delicated situation ...

[davedarling]

Originally Posted by 4 the Max

1. I hired an engineer on an hourly rate to track a 2 hour performance by a musician.

2. My contract with the musician says that the engineer has non-competition a agreement with me in order to prevent the engineer from stealing my clients for future projects and that I get first dibs on the project before any engineer that I use.

this is where you lost me. If your contract with the musician says that he can't work with another engineer, A- the contract can't be enforced, and B- your contract is NOT with the other engineer so he can do what ever he wants.
It is a competitive business.
I don't want to sound harsh here, but the best way to make sure your clients don't
go elsewhere is to be really good.
If you're not good enough to keep your clients, get better.

good luck dd

[narcoman]

it really is tough luck.


that and live engineers masquerading as studio engineers masquerading as live engineers doesn't compute with me.

I know a few who do it.

The studio side of what they do.....

Wait until you've been the one responsible for developing an act, putting about £40k into it , get the act a large deal. Get paid off and then get nothing further from it..... heart breaking stuff - but it's how it is.

[joelpatterson]

I also don't see how you can "contractually" force people not to choose who they work with?

Outside of arranged marriages?

[crank1000]

Welcome to the music industry

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I also don't see how you can "contractually" force people not to choose who they work with?

Outside of arranged marriages?

make my breakfast bi... oh wait a minute..... {something about shoes here...}

[The Byre]

What you have there my friend, is a Parasitic Control Freak

The music business is not unique in attracting this type of person, but they do seem to be attracted to the music business more than any other industry I can think of. At first sight, he (and again, it nearly always is a he) appears to be just another control freak. But in reality he is a useless and untalented person that only seeks to hang onto the ability and talent of others. He is a parasite.

We are all control freaks to some extent. We all think we know what is best for our fellows a society in general. Politicians are the biggest control freaks, because they combine this 'I know what is best.' attitude with an overwhelming desire for power. But for some reason, the music business draws a particular type of parasitic control freak that seeks to control every part of a project down to the most absurd detail, from the type of guitar used to which type of lettering goes on the CD cover.

He will want to use a certain microphone - and it is always one you do not have. He will find a bass anomaly in your monitoring system, but he refuses to use 'those' subs. The control freak will always insist on doing things his way.

In other words, by laying down arbitrary conditions of his own invention, he draws the threads of control in towards himself. He, as producer, engineer, artist or whatever, can only work under certain conditions.

And he always shifts the goal posts. After agreeing to a set of conditions in a contract, he will ask for new conditions to be added before signing. If he books the studio for a week, he will ask to come in a day early to 'just set up.' The set up then becomes a complete jam session that lasts until midnight. At the other end of the gig, the mixdown will overrun, but it is never his fault. The monitoring system is wrong, or the mics (that he has been complaining about all week) have lead to other, new problems, or something. Whatever it is, you are going to have to give him something or take less money than agreed, just to keep him quiet.

This parasite has a very short and a very selective memory, so you have to write everything down. But also something you said as a joke two years ago will be taken at face value if it is to his advantage.

If he is playing producer, every studio is fantastic and every band is just the best ever. But there will always be one little problem that only he can fix. And you know by the way he says 'little' that it is the mother of all problems! But, as only he can spot the problem, only he can fix it.

The game the parasitic control freak plays is to make himself indispensable by being the person that controls as many factors of a project as possible. The truth is, he is often a complete waste of space, is probably totally incompetent and is dragging everything down with his foolish games.

The give-away in your case is the 'borrowing' of equipment. He is coming to you because he does not have his own gear, so he is trying to get yours.

As a producer friend of mine once said "When a man has no money, I loose all sympathy for him!"

Just never deal with the man ever again and move on. If the musician comes to you, smile sweetly and tell him that he is only too welcome, but that this engineer is not allowed anywhere near your studio, on the grounds of being a liar, a cheat and for breaching his contract.

[narcoman]

all good Byre, all good - BUT a contract of such like that the OP tried to enforce is not legal. The closest is an NDA - but you cannot stop people working with other people legally. You can decide to not give them a job if they choose to work with others..

but yes - as Byre says - steer away from chaps like that. They're easy to spot.

[Musiclab]

I think it's absurd for you to have such an agreement, it wreaks of insecurity and paranoia, but at the same time the right thing would be for the engineer to use your studio for all of the studio work. What if you're client brought in a musician to play on the track and the musician and engineer hit it off, would you expect the engineer to not work with the musician also?

[Pana]

Originally Posted by 4 the Max

1. I hired an engineer on an hourly rate to track a 2 hour performance by a musician. He has a non-competition agreement not to work with clients he has tracked in my studio.

2. My contract with the musician says that the engineer has non-competition a agreement with me.

3. The musician subsequently became friends with the engineer.

4. Subsequently, the engineer phoned me and told me EVERYTHING that is wrong about my studio and business with the intentions of "helping me" and asked to borrow some of my equipment for a live sound job with this musician.

I don't know what transpired between this engineer and musician outside of my studio.

5. Now the musician wants to make his next album with this engineer who tracked his album.

6. He also wants to use this engineer to mix the project that he was paid to track in my studio.

7. I feel that this engineer has bad business etiquette, is mixing (no pun intended) into my business affairs, and going beyond the line of being the hired help.

8. Other engineers that I have used have not gotten involved with my clients outside of projects done in my studio.

What do you think about this situation?

How do other studios handle competition/non-competition with just hired help?

True, this is the music industry for you! Now what type of issues did the engineer say you had with your studio (maybe you should take them into consideration)? I have been to plenty of studios where I have told the studio owners what they could do to improve their studios (keep in mind I am giving my opinion based on experience). I also share these same ideas with the musicians/artists to give them more perspective on how their music could sound as oppose to how their music sounds at that particular studio (acoustics, equipment, etc). In my opinion, when an engineer/mixer takes time to go over these issues with the musicians/artists, then a closer bond is formed and the musicians/artists may favor that engineer/mixer (not only because the engineer/mixer took to explain these issue on sound quality, but the sound that they generate as well: tracking, mixing, work flow, etc...). I've had plenty of musicians/artists take me with them to other studios they record at because of what I have explained above. So don't get too clingy, or feel you are getting screwed. Then again I could be wrong, and please take into consideration that I am not picking sides or being bias. ---feedback/criticism would be much appreciated.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by narcoman

all good Byre, all good - BUT a contract of such like that the OP tried to enforce is not legal. The closest is an NDA - but you cannot stop people working with other people legally. You can decide to not give them a job if they choose to work with others..

but yes - as Byre says - steer away from chaps like that. They're easy to spot.

I have dealt with many such creatures and in the end, the ONLY way to deal with them is to just kick them out and put a ban on them ever darkening your door again. Don't talk to him, don't send him messages via third parties, don't sit down at a table and have a beer with him to thrash out any difficulties, don't even send him any emails.

Yes, Narcoman, a contract such as this one would be unenforceable, no matter what nature the parties took (persons, limited companies, freelancers, etc.) as it would contravene US employment law and competition law.

But it does give you a magnificent reason to keep this scrounger at a distance. And that is the only thing you can do and the one thing that you must do!

[4 the Max]

What this engineer said was wrong with my studio was that I shouldn't have traded in some Avalon gear for a ProTools HD system and then buy a couple of new mic pres (Neve 1073dpd, Pendulum) for the 96 i/o because it doesn't have any as I was using a PT LE system which did.

Instead, I should have paid him (this engineer) to mix each project that comes into my studio to speed up the turnaround time.

As far as having this kind of clause, it's something that's done in the corporate contract world which is where I got the idea. It was also in the book on music law that I've been using to write my contracts, and included with the enclosed templates for contracts with independent contractors (viz. this per diem engineers.)

The only binding limitation that I placed on the engineer and musician is that I had "first dibs" to make my offer on the musician's next project. It didn't obligate the musician to use me though, just that he included me in the path to his next project. I'm not trying to control or own the musician, just provide myself the possibility for a future project. I also didn't bind the musician from using any other studio, nor the engineer from working with any musician, including the one that he worked with in my studio.

However, I thought that making back-door deals with the musician who is a client of one's employee to get them into his (the employee's studio) is bad ettiquete, at the least. For example, you're an employee of a building contractor. While on the job as an employee for this building contractor, you tell the customer that you'll give him a better deal than your boss on the next job that he needs. So the customer hires the employee for his next job instead of the building contractor (boss) although the customer was satisfied with boss' work. The boss later finds out that his employee undercut him. This employee further had access to make contact with and negotiate with the potential customer because he worked for the boss. I believe that this is the spirit of the CNC and the crux of my posting here in gearslutz:

This engineer had access to get this musician into his own studio because he met MY customer (the musician) while being paid to work on MY project in MY studio.

As far as it being legal, it is: (I don't do business in California)

Non-compete clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A non-compete clause or covenant not to compete (CNC), is a term used in contract law under which one party (usually an employee) agrees to not pursue a similar profession or trade in competition against another party (usually the employer). As a contract provision, a CNC is bound by traditional contract requirements including the consideration doctrine. The use of such clauses is premised on the possibility that upon their termination or resignation, an employee might begin working for a competitor or starting a business, and gain competitive advantage by abusing confidential information about their former employer's operations or trade secrets, or sensitive information such as customer/client lists, business practices, upcoming products, and marketing plans.

Conversely, a business might abuse a non-compete covenant to prevent an employee from working elsewhere at all. Most jurisdictions in which such contracts have been examined by the courts have deemed CNCs to be legally binding so long as the clause contains reasonable limitations as to the geographical area and time period in which an employee of a company may not compete. Courts have held that, as a matter of public policy, an individual cannot be barred from carrying out a trade in which (s)he has been trained except to the extent that is necessary to protect the employer.[citation needed]

The extent to which non-compete clauses are legally allowed varies per jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions, such as the state of California in the US, invalidate non-compete-clauses for all but equity stakeholders in businesses.[1]"
"

Unlike some other professions, it appears that some of the responders have little regard for professionalism and ethics; ruthless monetary gain is the name of the game -- anything goes as long you get the gig.

So as far as being paranoid or insecure, if you can't trust your employees, then you have to take pre-emptive action (a CNC), if as some responders say, "We're all sharks here, so be the biggest, baddest, shark in the waters. Even if I'm helping you get your present meal, I'll be eating your dinner ahead of you the next time." These responders take it for granted that there's no ethics, courtesy, professionalism, etc. in the studio biz world.

Perhaps other professions requiring a license, trade guild, or union, enforces some type of professionalism within the ranks.

[narcoman]

that's for EMPLOYERS or corporate development. Not freelance tradesmen. You can't enforce it at all - he's not your employee. At all.

there is normally a time limit on the corporate ones. Also try enforcing them.

[Musiclab]

The bottom line is this engineer should have used your studio to continue with the project. I agree with the Byre in that I wouldn't use this guy again. However you have to be careful with WHO you hire, getting someone who has his own place is always going to be a bad idea. While I don't believe that having a non compete agreement is a good idea,
there is wrong and right way to do business, and the engineer is wrong

[4 the Max]

Thank you all for giving me some feedback.

I'm not looking for enforcement.

I'm just trying to get a perspective outside of my own feelings about what other studio owners think.


Just keep in mind, if some guy that you paid, employee or free-lance, could be handling his situations without only his own self-interest in mind. He'd also be getting more work in my studio or referrals to his. Now, where has this gotten him?

The adage still holds true, "honesty is the best policy."

[narcoman]

everyone i've ever hired or worked for has only ever looked out for their own self interest. I've worked with people for 20 years and then - in a second - they've turned and done something "unfair". Life works that way - doubly so in this business.

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by narcoman

everyone i've ever hired or worked for has only ever looked out for their own self interest. I've worked with people for 20 years and then - in a second - they've turned and done something "unfair". Life works that way - doubly so in this business.

Well, yeah, that happens alot.

But its funny... When someone has an opportunity to do that, and they don't, you will remember it forever!

Be careful how you treat people on your way up; you will meet them again on your way down!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by narcoman

... Life works that way ...

No, really? I wanna cry.

[glissando]

Although I think that having an agreement like that is ridiculous...there is a real shitty side to this business and that is when little shitheads badmouth you in order to promote themselves to a client...although some will view that as par for the course, I think it is horrible..and we all fall victim...the upside however is that if you do good work that will speak for itself...the problem is that half of the work out there is fickle clients with money who are suseptable to this kind of thing (not their fault... they really don't know)...if the industry was in better shape it really wouldn't matter...unfortunately it knida matters right now and that sucks. I sympathize with your postion but forget the agreement...and anyone that would sign an agreement like that is probably dishonest as honest people could never commit to that. Cheers.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

No, really? I wanna cry.

yeah? 'member what I said about your shoes......

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by narcoman

yeah? 'member what I said about your shoes......

I don't, but the mods have an extensive file on it...

[narcoman]

why i oughta.....

[joelpatterson]

*ducks*

[12ax7]

Why can't you Teeth & Nails just get along?

[emdub123]

Since you've taken the time to utilize non-competes in your studio biz, you might also think about the term "value proposition".

What's your value proposition? If a contractor comes in and does some work for a client that you secured on your own, then "steals" said client from you, it would seem that your value proposition was inadequate in this transaction.

In other words, the real problem is that your contractor and client don't need you. You should only be hiring contractors who need you. If he can provide the service directly to your client at a quality/price that is comparable to yours, then you are effectively a "middle man". If the middle man doesn't provide value to the transaction, he will quickly be cut out.

In my view, you got cut out because your value proposition was not there.

[gnjpowell]

NDA and non-compete contracts, etc., are effectively unenforceable, unless your day job is an attorney and prolly not even then...

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by gnjpowell

NDA and non-compete contracts, etc., are effectively unenforceable, unless your day job is an attorney and prolly not even then...

Then again, a good engineer does Law a LOT better than most lawyers do Engineering!

(Just a thought.)

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by gnjpowell

NDA and non-compete contracts, etc., are effectively unenforceable, unless your day job is an attorney and prolly not even then...

exactly. All you can use them for is a threat to not pay. If you break NDA you can be kicked off the project and/or not paid. Certainly can't stop someone "post" project from doing anything.

Lucas tried it with Dave Prowse. All he could do was not bring Prowse back for much Vader work after Empire.... which is exactly what he did.

[joelpatterson]

You mean "exactly what he didn't."?