perhaps if you got on with some work you might earn some money?

[7161]

i mean ffs talk about a load of hot air

go and get some work done.

[bleepbleep]

my torrent tracker is making me a tonne of money as i write this -
- thanks to all the sponging cheapskates and a host of banner adds for local girls


i dont need to make money out of my music when i can make it out of yours -

[7161]

yeah yeah blah blah blah-dy blah...


file sharing isnt effecting typical studios, it's property prices, insurance premium hikes and a general lack of revenue in society

now go and get some work done and stop dreaming

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by 7161

file sharing isnt effecting typical studios,

I've had a number of records cancelled, budgets cut, and days reduced on both independent label and unsigned projects because it occurred to whoever was paying that there's no way they can recoup the recording cost when everyone is going to just download the files.

[claend]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I've had a number of records cancelled, budgets cut, and days reduced on both independent label and unsigned projects because it occurred to whoever was paying that there's no way they can recoup the recording cost when everyone is going to just download the files.

Isn't the global situation affecting you also?? Just the baaaad pirates?? A friend of me describes the same than you, he's a translator.

ADAPTATION

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by claend

Isn't the global situation affecting you also?? Just the baaaad pirates?? A friend of me describes the same than you, he's a translator.

As a matter of fact, the global situation is not affecting me (yet...knock on wood). I've never been busier.

Now, before you tell me that that's proof that piracy isn't harming my business, let me assure you: the concern over lost record sales, and the subsequent cancellations, has existed since long before the global economy shit the bed, and I had quite a span where it was tough finding work (especially album work) for exactly that reason.

Furthermore, just because I'm busier than ever doesn't mean I haven't had a number of sessions cancelled or shortened because of the financier's concern over piracy (which are, of course, further exasperated by the economic situation). Which is to say, I'd be even busier yet if it weren't for that concern.

[Osumosan]

So let me understand you correctly... We should only be concerned with out craft/art and not bother about economics, society, technology or anything else, because that has nothing to do with us?

Let me say this: this thinking is not part of the solution.

Originally Posted by 7161

i mean ffs talk about a load of hot air

go and get some work done.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by claend

ADAPTATION

Adapt?

C'mon, man. You're asking studios, producers, and engineers who've spent their lives learning and refining their craft to adapt to a clientele with no money...So should we just do what we do for free, because we love it and real artists work for love, not money?

That tired argument is flawed on so many levels. It's no justification for theft.

[claend]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

As a matter of fact, the global situation is not affecting me (yet...knock on wood). I've never been busier.

Now, before you tell me that that's proof that piracy isn't harming my business, let me assure you: the concern over lost record sales, and the subsequent cancellations, has existed since long before the global economy shit the bed, and I had quite a span where it was tough finding work (especially album work) for exactly that reason.

Furthermore, just because I'm busier than ever doesn't mean I haven't had a number of sessions cancelled or shortened because of the financier's concern over piracy (which are, of course, further exasperated by the economic situation). Which is to say, I'd be even busier yet if it weren't for that concern.

I wasn't going to say that! And man, I'm glad you're working more than ever!!

BTW, would you mind to borrow that machine whitch calculates what's the real reason behind your cancelations, and flow of incoming work?? ... I guess it's analogue

[claend]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Adapt?

C'mon, man. You're asking studios, producers, and engineers who've spent their lives learning and refining their craft to adapt to a clientele with no money...So should we just do what we do for free, because we love it and real artists work for love, not money?

That tired argument is flawed on so many levels. It's no justification for theft.

Why it's flawed?? Cuz you are an awesome engineer?? It doesn't give a f+++ , my friend.

Stop that ego and bring some reasons.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

bgrotto? who ever said artists shouldnt be paid? or engineers or promotional machines for that matter. It just has to happen differently now thats all.

Now, before you tell me that that's proof that piracy isn't harming my business, let me assure you: the concern over lost record sales, and the subsequent cancellations, has existed since long before the global economy shit the bed, and I had quite a span where it was tough finding work (especially album work) for exactly that reason.

and that mentality has fuelled/continues to fuel an IRAQ-AFGHAN war , 9/11 paranoia and market crashes... i can go on. (not ur mentality bgrotto ... the fear mentality).

FEAR - thats the real reason why no one wants things to change. Fear they no longer have a role in something they've had for years. Well if you were needed then and now...... you will be needed tomorrow. The manner in which you will earn your bucks may have changed though.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by claend

I wasn't going to say that! And man, I'm glad you're working more than ever!!

BTW, would you mind to borrow that machine whitch calculates what's the real reason behind your cancelations, and flow of incoming work?? ... I guess it's analogue

If you're suggesting my cancellations are due to my clients simply not liking me or my work, it's not an unreasonable assumption. In fact, I'm certain I've lost gigs to engineers and producers better and/or cheaper than I. However, in the cases of which I speak, I'm referring more to recording sessions that started out as full-lengths, and ended up being 3-4 song EPs (common with local unsigned bands), or tracking sessions that started off with ten days, and end up at five or seven (common with indie labels), all because the client didn't feel they'd be able to afford making such a record when they know it's going to be downloaded illegally.

[claend]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

If you're suggesting my cancellations are due to my clients simply not liking me or my work, it's not an unreasonable assumption. In fact, I'm certain I've lost gigs to engineers and producers better and/or cheaper than I. However, in the cases of which I speak, I'm referring more to recording sessions that started out as full-lengths, and ended up being 3-4 song EPs (common with local unsigned bands), or tracking sessions that started off with ten days, and end up at five or seven (common with indie labels), all because the client didn't feel they'd be able to afford making such a record when they know it's going to be downloaded illegally.

Oh no no... never tried to say that! Sorry. But don't you think that they are maybe planning to sell it song by song or put it in myspace... Maybe the album thing is changing, and 5-6 songs are enough for their current needs? Just guessing but it could also be truth, cuz otherwise why recording a single song??

[lhm1138]

And if you got back on your knees, so would you!

ZING

Just kidding BTW. I like the snaps.

[bgrotto]

I think you guys misunderstood my point.

Originally Posted by claend

Why it's flawed?? Cuz you are an awesome engineer?? It doesn't give a f+++ , my friend.

Stop that ego and bring some reasons.

Do you really need to resort to name calling?



It's flawed because, for better or worse, money is a crucial part of advancing art; it's what pays for expertise (the expertise of the acousticians designing the better studios to create a more musical-sounding environment, or the gear designers to find new ways to capture and recreate recorded sound). Without compensation, there's no reason to devote the hours and years and personal dollars learning the every detail of a complicated trade. Unless everyone starts working for free (by "everyone", I mean every person in every profession, music-related or not), people need to be compensated for their work.

If musicians don't get paid, the studios don't get paid (remember, my response to the OP is an argument against his stance that "file sharing isnt effecting typical studios"). If the studios don't get paid, neither do the acousticians who design them, or the gear manufacturers who outfit them. The companies that market records don't get paid, the guys who do the graphics and printing for the albums don't get paid. It goes on. Doctors love being doctors, teachers love being teachers, but they need to be paid for their personal investment. You cannot make a living off something by doing it just because you love it.

I'm not saying a world where everyone worked for free doing what they love, and we all lived happily ever after, wouldn't be great, but it's unrealistic.

Anyway, my point is/was that piracy does, in fact, affect typical studios. Telling people they need to "adapt" is completely devoid of substance. It's a flawed, misinformed, non-solution. It's practically little more than a pro-piracy buzzword.

Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM

bgrotto? who ever said artists shouldnt be paid? or engineers or promotional machines for that matter. It just has to happen differently now thats all.

FEAR - thats the real reason why no one wants things to change. Fear they no longer have a role in something they've had for years. Well if you were needed then and now...... you will be needed tomorrow. The manner in which you will earn your bucks may have changed though.

I'm not talking about the FEAR that artists won't sell the records they invest so much into, because people are downloading them. I'm talking about the REALITY that artists aren't selling the records they invest so much into, because people are downloading them. These are artists and businesses with past experience; a trackable decline in record sales that can be tied directly to piracy.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by claend

Oh no no... never tried to say that! Sorry. But don't you think that they are maybe planning to sell it song by song or put it in myspace... Maybe the album thing is changing, and 5-6 songs are enough for their current needs? Just guessing but it could also be truth, cuz otherwise why recording a single song??

Again, I'm talking about people who started off with plans to make a full record, and slowly pared that plan down to fewer songs (and fewer studio days) due to financial concerns. Or, the not-so-occasional label who wants me to do the same amount of work in half the time.

I actually encourage poorly-funded bands who approach me with plans to do a full-length to put that same budget towards an EP. I think the album is a quickly-dying (maybe already dead) format, and a few great-sounding, well-conceived songs will be much better for the artist than 10 songs that are mediocre-sounding, and only a third of those songs are actually good. It's the "all killer, no filler" approach

The Myspace-only single can work well for bands that play out a lot, but not every band can tour. And, depending on the band's genre/niche/region, Myspace may or may not be of much use to them. So again, a sellable release (EP, LP, 7", whatever) is (or actually, was...) the only option.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

bgrotto

I'm not talking about the FEAR that artists won't sell the records they invest so much into, because people are downloading them. I'm talking about the REALITY that artists aren't selling the records they invest so much into, because people are downloading them. These are artists and businesses with past experience; a trackable decline in record sales that can be tied directly to piracy.

I agree with you...

but i was referring to the fears about the paradigm in which the artists and labels they represent have to sell their records is changing/has changed. Thats the fear part i refer to. Having to change in order to continue to do so.

There is absolutely no parallel to Iraq, Afghanistan, or market crashes.

Well in depth observation could dictate otherwise... but i will respectfully detract what i had written to keep discussion in context.

bgrotto

- i think you and i do agree on the matter that piracy isnt doing anyone any good. We just differ at the part, you feel like the paradigm needs protecting when i feel its due for a change. Thats all.


cheers and keep up the good work ..thumbsup

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM

I agree with you...

but i was referring to the fears about the paradigm in which the artists and labels they represent have to sell their records is changing/has changed. Thats the fear part i refer to. Having to change in order to continue to do so.

Good point. Both sides of this discussion could use more respectful and well-worded thoughts like this one

Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM

bgrotto

- i think you and i do agree on the matter that piracy isnt doing anyone any good. We just differ at the part, you feel like the paradigm needs protecting when i feel its due for a change. Thats all.


cheers and keep up the good work ..thumbsup

I'm actually not against a paradigm change, just to be clear. My only concern is that our artists are compensated for their work, that their work is respected, and that their work (and the work of others) continues to evolve.

If that means a radical paradigm shift, I'm all for it! So long as it's fair and well-balanced. The problem is, we've yet to find a new paradigm to shift towards, and in the meantime, the rampant piracy is discouraging what few great and dedicated artists we have left.

So, to sum up my stance: Piracy is inexcusable. Rethinking the paradigm is not.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

bgrotto

My only concern is that our artists are compensated for their work, that their work is respected, and that their work (and the work of others) continues to evolve.

the goals of everyone involved i would surely hope.


tried to find the beer mug emot

cheers for the kind words.

[7161]

all i'm saying is, for the MAJORITY of studios, downloading isnt an issue at all

the whole network of small studios, rehearsals rooms & small venues etc exists (or did) to support and have a symbiotic relationship with new bands getting into the game

these studios & local venues are effected by property prices, rents, rates, utilities, insurance hikes (or risk having none) etc etc - overheads have gone thru the roof in recent years

the thousands of pubs (including pub venues) shutting in the uk isnt because of downloading - Named small critical venues closing such as The Charlotte in Leicester isnt cos of downloading





the amount of waffle in this dedicated forum is just rediculous... nothing will be defined or fixed and no conclusion will be reached... it's just endless waffle and people spouting their opinions - it might as well be a dedicated MAC V PC forum for all the use it is



but it is having ONE very important effect - it's making music and the mention of music into more of a negative drudge than it already was

when people (punters, the buying public) think of music & the music industry now all they think of is law, criminalisation of the public, repressive govt action, endless agressive negative talk and threatening speeches and edicts


i am a musician, and it's getting to the point for me where I'm just frankly sick and f*cking tired of the music business, it's depressing negative and just... oh please just shutup already

music used to be something that gee'd you up, that made your day, that made the factory clock tick faster in a boring job

now it's just grim legal threats and negative talk about spying on the public and criminalising people and thats all tied into the crushing of peoples legal right to privacy and a growing corporate controlled police state


if the public turns away from music industry and says "You know what? F*CK THE MUSIC INDUSTRY!! we have plenty of decent underground stuff for free on various websites anyways", can you blame them?


hence i say, get on with some work, cos all this talk is just making the industry look like more of a joke than it is already, and it's making massive negative energy for the music industry - all for the benefit of 4 corporations who's core business isnt really even music any more.

[evermuse]

wait wait... are we talking about real work or making art "work" *chin scratching*