djd_oz
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#1
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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Angled desk

Are there any benefits of putting your desk at an angle as illustrated in the below diagram? I have a room similar to the below with windows to the left.



compared to the traditional arrangement below.

#2
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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nms
#3
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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Setup along the short wall, speakers as close to the wall as possible without touching, and get some good panels for left and right walls at ear level. For the window side put one on a stand or make something with hooks and lines to hang the panel in place when needed.
#4
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
Are there any benefits of putting your desk at an angle as illustrated in the below diagram? I have a room similar to the below with windows to the left.
There are no benefits if you don't have windows to the right too. Angled listening axis is used often to reach better symmetry. Here is not this case.


EDIT: but with proposed (foam) treatment, possibly it is not matter at all. To hear this type of anomalies, you need much stronger LF treatment, before all.
djd_oz
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#5
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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#6
18th December 2013
Old 18th December 2013
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#7
18th December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
So, you guys don't recommend foam treatment?
........
As Glenn shows you above, thin foam has no useful application in standard control room for modern music/film production (with very intensive content below 250Hz)...
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djd_oz
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#8
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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OK, Thanks guys.
nms
#9
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
So, you guys don't recommend foam treatment?

Initially, I was thinking of getting some if these, Sound Acoustics | Acoustic Foam Products SpecialistsSound Acoustics
Foam is usually the first choice when you're new to acoustics and don't know what you're doing. Spend some time on the GIK site and you'll learn lots and get a feel for products that will make a MUCH greater improvement.
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djd_oz
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#10
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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Unfortunately, I'm in Australia where there are not so many options for quality pre-made acoustic treatments. We can get stuff by Real Traps through Awave but it is ridiculously expansive, I assume they factor in the high shipping costs.

Glenn, would you have any idea re: shipping cost to Australia?

The last resort is DIY, I suppose.
nms
#11
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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lol, I like how that company refers to a couple foam tiles bent around each other as "a highly effective bass trap".
Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
The last resort is DIY, I suppose.
If you're in Australia and cost is an issue it's probably time to contact your local building suppliers and source some rock wool/Roxul/mineral wool. It's easy and you can make some great & effective traps yourself.

To get the right advice it really helps if people mention more about their situation though.
Things like:

-budget
-what you're doing in the room and what kind of music (bass heavy music needs more lf attention)
-how important this is (casual hobby? serious aspirations? full time pro use?)
-what monitors
-room size
-are there concrete walls nearby?
djd_oz
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#12
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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Hey nms ... thanks for helping a n00b out.

1) Budget = ~$1000
2) Music = Electronic Music, mainly techno nowadays. So, yes to bass heavy music.
3) Hobby at this point in time.
4) Monitors = 2 x EMES Black and 1 x EMES Amber Subwoofer
5) Room size = 3.8 x 2.8m (not sure about the ceiling but I estimate is about 2.4m)
6) The floor is concrete however it currently has some carpet on it. I'm thinking of actually ripping out the carpet and have just polished concrete



I can take a few measurements in the coming weeks using REW when I get access to the apartment.

Looking at various options at this stage.
#13
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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I would say at a $1000 budget you are better to build it yourself. Shipping to Australia is pretty high with lower quantities. Trust me, we ship there all the time but generally larger amounts. Feel free though to email me through my company website, and we can get some pricing for you.
nms
#14
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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Glenn is 100% right.

Here's what I'd do..
Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
Hey nms ... thanks for helping a n00b out.

1) Budget = ~$1000
Good budget. You can do an excellent job well under this if you DIY.
Quote:
2) Music = Electronic Music, mainly techno nowadays. So, yes to bass heavy music.
Thick, quality traps essential then. Do solid square soffit type traps in all 4 corners. You want insulation that's 16" OC for this which makes building a breeze. Make them 18" thick x 16" floor to ceiling. These will work wonders on your low end.

Place your monitors and sub as close to the front wall as poss without touching. I don't use subs, but REW should help you figure out the best location along the front wall.

A 6" thick ceiling cloud will also do great things. Leave at least a 4" air gap above. At least 4' wide. 4' long is fine.

Panels on your R & L walls for first reflections as per usual. 3" thick insulation with 1" air gap behind would be good for your room. Don't go any thinner. 2' OC insulation is good here. You'd be fine with 2'x4' panels placed horizontally at ear level with the center point located halfway between your ears & your speakers.

a 6" thick trap along your front wall between speakers would work well. Extend this up then straddle the ceiling edge which is another great hotspot to hit.

This is almost exactly what I did in my last room which was around that size and I achieved an exceptionally flat & tight low end for bass heavy music.

Here we pay around $40 for a bag of Roxul mineral wool which gives 8 slabs 2'x4'x3". It's all 2.5 pcf (pounds per cubic ft) density. I'm not sure what products they have available at building suppliers there but 2.5-3 pcf is good for this.

You can find a million tutorials for building these. Ideal construction is as lightweight and skeletal as possible while still supporting them and allowing ease of fabric wrap + staple.

I still have 4 $5 Auralex tiles across each of my L&R wall panels. This is a big HF reflection point so it's one spot they're handy.
djd_oz
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#15
19th December 2013
Old 19th December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
I would say at a $1000 budget you are better to build it yourself. Shipping to Australia is pretty high with lower quantities. Trust me we ship there all the time but generally larger amounts. Feel free though to email me through my company website and we can get some pricing for you.
Thanks Glenn, once I have access to the apartment and can do some measurements etc ... we can work out what I need which may assist with determining the shipping costs.

nms or others, any ideas on how to install bass traps on the BIR? There are doors that open out like a normal door to a room. I don't have pictures at the moment but can post some later.
djd_oz
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#16
21st December 2013
Old 21st December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Thick, quality traps essential then. Do solid square soffit type traps in all 4 corners. You want insulation that's 16" OC for this which makes building a breeze. Make them 18" thick x 16" floor to ceiling. These will work wonders on your low end.
Pardon my ignorance but what is 16" OC?

Also, why 18" x 16"? Are there any advantages over 16" x 16"?
djd_oz
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#17
21st December 2013
Old 21st December 2013
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nms
#18
21st December 2013
Old 21st December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djd_oz View Post
Pardon my ignorance but what is 16" OC?

Also, why 18" x 16"? Are there any advantages over 16" x 16"?
OC = On center. Insulation is commonly sized for either 16" or 24" OC framing. The 16" slabs are perfect size for building square soffit style corner bass traps while the 24" are a nice size for making easy 2x4' panels.

If the insulation is 3" thick layers then you'll end up with either 15" or 18". 18" having the advantage due to extra thickness. floor to ceiling 16" x 18" traps made his way make a HUGE improvement to the low end. Bass traps are the best thing to diy because aside from being easy to build you need them big like this to be effective at low freqs. Big is expensive if buying retail due to shipping & handling etc.
#19
22nd December 2013
Old 22nd December 2013
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Along those lines, if you have the space available (maybe for a ceiling soffit if you don't want to loose the extra floorspace) a 24"x24" would work/be even better.
#20
23rd December 2013
Old 23rd December 2013
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I've got some panels from Glenn over at GIK and they're great. But since my budget didn't really allow me to buy a whole bunch of them I decided to try and build some of my own.

Here in Germany the Rockwool stuff is cheap - you can get enough rockwool to make 4 panels using 3 slabs per panel for about 18 euro. For the life of me right now I can't remember their dimensions but the wooden frames I made are 50cm x 100cm and the covering I used is called sailing canvas, or "Segeltuch" made from 100% cotton. Bought 6m (width is 160cm) worth for 45 euro.

In all, I can build 4 panels for about 90 euro, not including screws and staples. Most of the time I use a styrofoam backing panel so the fibers aren't exposed or sometimes I'll use a 4mm piece of plywood. The styro panels are simply insulation panels the Germans use for exterior-wall insulation. I'm sure the plywood reflects some frequencies, but it's probably negligible.

Anyway, here are some photos of a couple panels I made for my studio last year. These are actually covered with a linen material (which isn't a good idea - WRINKLES!). I've built about 20 of these the last few months for some colleagues of mine on a budget.

Acoustic Panel Build
#21
23rd December 2013
Old 23rd December 2013
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You do not want to have a hard back on them if straddling corners or mounting with a gap. Hard to tell but it looks like it does.
#22
23rd December 2013
Old 23rd December 2013
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Yeah I think those are 2 I ended up using the 4mm ply with because my buddy was hanging them on the wall. All the others use a 1.5" styrofoam board.
#23
23rd December 2013
Old 23rd December 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
There are no benefits if you don't have windows to the right too. Angled listening axis is used often to reach better symmetry. Here is not this case.


EDIT: but with proposed (foam) treatment, possibly it is not matter at all. To hear this type of anomalies, you need much stronger LF treatment, before all.
Totally agree here. Some companies also suggest you to turn if they can't treat the area equally, and in the case of the proposed set up it seems they are unable to treat in front of the windows and thus turn the set up to get more symmetric treatment. Of course this can then ruin low frequency symmetry since the room is not symmetric and speakers are different distances from walls..so you're trading high frequency symmetry for low frequency symmetry, which IMO is actually more important in the first place.

You will likely be wanting to do panels in front of the windows on the left at your reflection points, so you'll need to do stands or something in front of that, but that's not a big deal.

If you're DIYing, don't skimp out on all the details! Thicker traps will always be helpful. Corner traps are particularly helpful for bass trapping. Reflection points and back wall areas are also important for controlling any harmful reflections in the room. You can use the following as a guide: Acoustical Room Advice - GIK Acoustics
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