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Samuelito
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25th March 2013
Old 25th March 2013
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Building/Designing small studio

Hello,

I'm starting designing my new studio from scratch and I would like to know what do you guys think about it before I settle with the design and start building.

I've made a sketch, for now, taking in consideration one of the ratios from the RealTraps ModeCalc software.

One issue I encountered with the results of the soft is the proximity of certain modes at 200Hz & 400Hz.
Don't really know if by treating the room later I can manage these frequencies or should I re consider the design now.

The funny/curious thing is that I'm building it inside a cold storage chamber and one of the side walls from the CR will be different to the others.
Will this be a mayor issue or can I also manage it with some treatment??

Thank you all for your time!
Cheers,

Sam



Going to Sketchup this now!! B back in a while. Cheers!!
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-sketch_newstudio_1.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-newroom_modecalc_plot.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-newroom_modecalc_table.jpg  
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Walls with different densities/mass

Sam,

Depending on the mass difference of the control room walls, you may have varying degrees of LF asymmetry. You want to match the mass of L-C-R walls as closely as possible for best imaging & modal distribution.

Treatment can straighten out a choppy mid to hf response, however, a choppy LF response can only be tightened with treatment. If there is a hole in the response due to lack of modal support, there will still be a hole when treatment is finished. Nulls caused by phase cancellation can be be helped, but usually not cured without moving something.

Cheers,
John

PS. In your drawing, it looks like you have chopped the corners off the control room..? is that treatment? That's fine. But if you are blocking off the corners... Don't do that. Bad Idea. You can use them for trapping.
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Last edited by jhbrandt; 26th March 2013 at 12:42 AM.. Reason: ps
Samuelito
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Hi John,

First thing fisrt. Thank you!!

The peripheral wall is the typical cold chamber wall with metallic covering and with absorption material inside (100mm wide). Don't know exactly the specifications, but I can probably get them.

All the other walls I have to build them. I'm planning over 15cm walls with wood frame. (plasterboard - chipboard - isolation - chipboard - plasterboard)

The only one that I was planning on adding an extra plasterboard was on the wall between the CR and the Live room. (plasterboard - chipboard - isolation - plasterboard - chipboard - plasterboard) from CR to Live room all the way upto the ISO.

And I forgot, but the ceiling is from the same material as the peripheral walls... Do you think that adding a plasterboard over the metallic surface will make any difference??

Yes, I'm saving the corners for trapping. Don't know if I should do all new traps from floor to ceiling or use the broadband absorbers I have. I have quite a few already.

Thanks again!!
Cheers,

Sam
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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ahhh.. okay. I understand.

That wall 'fill' material for thermal insulation is most likely expanded polystyrene or similar. This stuff is of no use acoustically, except for the very small mass that it may add.

Add plaster board to the existing walls to 'beef up' the mass. -- You need a damped wall resonance of about 14Hz to be effective at 20Hz.

Cheers,
John
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Ok..., but I'm not sure what a damped wall resonant is??


Is the same thing as an absorption wall or dead surface wall?? Like a big basstrap??


Here are some quick Sketchup plans. Not perfect but the best a could do at 5 AM.

Thanks again for your time John!!!
Best,

Sam
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-sketchup_print1.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-sketchup_print2.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-sketchup_print3.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-sketchup_print4.jpg  
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Can you please add dimensions?
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26th March 2013
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Don't know how to make sketchup show dimension, but in the first post there is a sketch with all the dimensions in mts.
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuelito View Post
One issue I encountered with the results of the soft is the proximity of certain modes at 200Hz & 400Hz. Don't really know if by treating the room later I can manage these frequencies or should I re consider the design now.
You're in good hands with John, so I'll address only the above. Frequencies at 200 Hz and higher are not difficult to tame with bass traps. When choosing dimensions / ratios, focus most on the modes below 200 Hz.

--Ethan

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Samuelito
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24th May 2013
Old 24th May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
You're in good hands with John, so I'll address only the above. Frequencies at 200 Hz and higher are not difficult to tame with bass traps. When choosing dimensions / ratios, focus most on the modes below 200 Hz.

--Ethan

The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Thank you Ethan!!

Sorry for the late response. I've been quite busy lately.
Here are some shitty photos of the work in progress. Waiting for some cables to arrive before starting closing the walls.

Thanks for your advices!! Been of great help!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-img_1016.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1017.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1018.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1027.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1028.jpg  

Building/Designing small studio-img_1025.jpg  
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22nd July 2013
Old 22nd July 2013
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Well, here are some updated photos.

I'm now installing doors and windows and I'm a bit concern about the windows.
Almost all the companies are on vacations or they provide just the glass and I have a gig at the end of next month, so I'm seriously considering doing the windows myself.

I have a couple of questions:

What's the recommended angle for the glasses?
What's the best way to fix and cut the frame?
Should I put some isolation rubber where the glass will sit and finish the installation with silicon??

The idea that I have is to follow the Auralex installation tips.

Auralex Acoustics - Installation Tips and Techniques

Thanks again for all the help and I hope you like the photos.



Sam
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-img_1086.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1087.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1089.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1142.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_3310.jpg  

Building/Designing small studio-img_3312.jpg  
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22nd July 2013
Old 22nd July 2013
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Sam,

No angle, unless you have lighting issues.. Nevermind that. No angles, just set them parallel.

Trim the wall opening & seal the window frame to the wall framework (studs).

Use rubber or neoprene 'setting blocks' to place the glass on. - For sealing, I recommend any non-hardening caulk. Butyl rubber (roofing) caulk works very good. Big Stretch or OSI SC-175 is great.

Be sure to place desiccant packets (Silica Gel) between the glass panes prior to finishing/sealing. - You don't want the windows fogging.

Cheers,
John
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22nd July 2013
Old 22nd July 2013
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Thanks John,

Great!!! Those angles had me a bit worried.
It will be much easier parallel glasses.
I'll post some photos later.
Thanks again!!

Sam
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10th August 2013
Old 10th August 2013
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As promised, here are the photos of the windows. Well just one of them.

Ok, so I started installing everything and I got to the point of setting up the acoustic panels.
I decided to choose the listening position at 45% of the room as 38% is too short to let the speakers some space.

I used to have two 150cm x 150cm x 5cm side wall panels and a third one (same dimensions) as a cloude (angled) plus five broadband absorbers on the back of the room at the old studio.
This time I decided to use broadband absorbers on the sides as well as on the back of the room. Cloudes will probably be similar to the broadband absorbers, but about 5cm thinner (BB Abs are about 15cm deep)

My doubts are:

Should I place the absorbers side by side at the listening position or can I set them evenly through the hole distance up to the corner bass trap keeping one of them at the listening position?

And can I set the clouds horizontal to the ceiling or will it work best if I give them some angle??

I assume that positioning absorption panels is quite critical and that there is some logical science to it and not just setting them up randomly to the listening position.

I uploaded some more photos of the room and of the broadband absorbers.
Thanks again for all the tips so far!!
Best,

Sam
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-img_1145.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1144.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1156.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1159.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1187.jpg  

Building/Designing small studio-img_1191.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1192.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1500.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1511.jpg  
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10th August 2013
Old 10th August 2013
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Hello everyone,

After almost an year of finishing the construction of the studio I still can't get the CR to sound as I would like.
I'm having some severe cancellations and bumps in certain frequencies and I could really do with some help.
I uploaded some captures from several REW measurement as well as the saved measurement file and some pics so you can see the configuration of the room and the positions of the panels.

I also tried using a software acoustic correction tool (ARC), with not much success. I used it before in other configs and it did work much better than it does now.

Just as a reminder, The CR is:

W: 343 cm
L: 434 cm
H: 272 cm

I hope the graphs and pics help to have an idea of the situation.
Thanks again for your time!
Best,

Sam
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-psi-left-45-.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-psi-right-45-.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-psi-stereo-45-.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1840.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1841.jpg  

Building/Designing small studio-img_1842.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1843.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-img_1846.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat CR studio 45%.mdat (7.80 MB, 9 views) File Type: mdat CR studio 38%.mdat (7.80 MB, 6 views)
Samuelito
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Hi,

I know that in this time of the year many people are on vacations, but if someone could give me a hand with this I would really appreciate.
Thanks again!

Sam
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That's a very small room, though you do have a lot of bass traps! I honestly don't know what to suggest. But your photos don't show the rear wall, and that's a very important place for bass traps.

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Did you put wood on the fronts of the panels? Looking at the ETC it is out of control. Looks like you are getting MASSIVE reflections below 20ms, like you have some kind of wooden fronts on the panels you made. Either that or the tests are not valid. Sorry new to the thread and do not have time to go back to the start to read everything.
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Thanks guys for replying!!

Ethan:

The rear wall photo is the one with the 3 "dark Brawn" broadband absorbers between the corner basstraps.
Photos go in this order: Front - Left - Right - Front/Sealing - Back wall.
Yes I do have a lot on panels. Too many I think. I made three different sizes.

- 7.5cm deep (total) 5cm fiberglass / 2.5cm air space at the back
- 10cm deep (total) 5cm fiberglass / 5cm air space at the back
- 15cm deep (total) 10cm fiberglass / 5cm air space at the back (dark brown)

The angled ones, most of them have been refilled with absortion material as well.


Glenn:

Non of the panels have wood in the front, just the frame. The mic was pointing to the sealing at ears/twitters height centered in listening position at 45% of the length of the room.

To my ears, there is something strange with the way the walls resonate.
I'm uploading an photo from the first visit to the place so you can have a better idea of what it really was.
The sealing and the left wall of the CR have only plasterboard as the back, front and right walls have (plasterboard - chipboard - isolation - chipboard - plasterboard). There is a full description in the 3rd post.
Reading again John's first post makes me wonder if I should have done better adding a chipboard before the plasterboard in the left wall and sealing...
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Building/Designing small studio-img_1797.jpg  
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Hey,

Im no acoustician but I have recently been building my own studio, small dimensions similar to you and have been learning and understanding REW gradually. Really spend time to understand and play with REW. It is a lot more than an SPL graph. The level and detail of information there is in my opinion mind boggling.

I have attached a picture below from your Mdat file, reading taken at 45%. This is a waterfall graph generated. It shows something very strange at 72Hz which would render your results void/unuseable. What that shows is at 72Hz, for a time of 1.5s (settting in REW) the tone is ringing indefinitely. I would describe it as interfearence but it may not be that. I would also guess this would affect results above 72 hz aswell hence why I say the whole measurement should be void.

I am not in a position to suggest what is actually causing this, purely because I dont know and havent had an issue like that. What I can say is its in the left and right channel equally.

Maybe some further searching will provide an answer, or maybe one of the regular forum acousticians may pop along and provide some suggestions! In any case this needs to be fixed before you get a measurement that is representative of the room.

My thread Room Advice for odd shaped room. DIY Duild. If you fancy a read of a similar sized room. I will be updating that shortly with my latest readings and progress pics.

Hope that helps

Thanks Matt
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Thanks Matt,

I didn't checked waterfalls graphs as I'm not really familiar with them. Some reading ahead...
I'll do some more test tomorrow with another computer and another interface, just to take that out of the way.
Is it possible that because of been a wooden mezzanine it resonates with the low end at certain frequency?

Thanks for pointing that out!!
Cheers,

Sam
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No Worries.

although the wood structure may be causing resonance, I dont think it would last anywhere near that long at a fixed volume. It would more than likely tail off similar to the rest of your waterfall chart just not as quickly. That spike does not tail off. Which is why I would say its interference or something else.

It if was me, I would start by swapping stuff out, 1 item at a time, if you have spare gear to see if you can identify whats causing it. Also if you have corrective eq working disable that for all testing for the moment as that could be contributing.

Definiately do alot of reading, the waterfall graphs in REW are as important if not more than your SPL graphs!

Good Luck! Thanks Matt
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Matt might be on to something, but looking at the ETC it looks like a room might look with ZERO treatment. The reflections below 20ms should be -20db or so if you used 4" (or even 2" with a nice gap) in the early reflection points. Instead they are more like around -8 to -10db.. Either the tests are not valid or the things you made are totally done wrong.
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I hope is not the microphone as is the only measurement mic I have apart from the ARC one. Not that they are that expensive (the cheaper ones). ECM8000 and so. But is the only thing I don't have an extra to swap.

Glenn:

In one of the posts above, there are 2 pics of the broadband absorbers in construction. They are made of acoustic fiberglass as dense as I found.

Thanks again!

Sam
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Quote:
In one of the posts above, there are 2 pics of the broadband absorbers in construction. They are made of acoustic fiberglass as dense as I found.
Even if it was super dense (which you don't need) it would not cause reflections like that. Lets hope it is just the test you did.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Even if it was super dense (which you don't need) it would not cause reflections like that. Lets hope it is just the test you did.
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Hi guyz!

Well I've done new measurement.
The problem at 72Hz was the fridge beside mine that was working while I was measuring. You can hear it working if you are in complete silence, but it doesn't bother me while mixing. It's mostly the chamber resonating through the walls. The cause is the ventilators.
That's another problem that I'm dealing with... Solution is there just waiting for the guy to install it. (Vibrastop).

So I turned off the fridge and done new measurements. Seems the problem is still there. It might be a little different as I recently installed a CM Motormix over the console.
One thing that I forgot.... The issues over 500Hz came after installing the new console. (See post 13). It did as well cause some changes in the low end, but it didn't change much the main problem...

So here are some more pics and a new .mdat.
Hope it helps.
Cheers,


Sam
Attached Thumbnails
Building/Designing small studio-psi-left-45-2-.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-psi-right-45-2-.jpg   Building/Designing small studio-psi-stereo-45-2-.jpg  
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File Type: mdat CR studio 2 45%.mdat (7.80 MB, 3 views)
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BTW, the new measurements were done with the same gearas before. The other intreface (Digi 002) has problems doing the calibration. Don't know why, but it's not the first time I hear this with the 002.
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Well, I'm getting an ECM8000 for a new measurement with another computer, but I'll still use the same interface. I really don't think there might be a problem with it. The calibration went smoothly from the go.

On the other hand, do you think that covering the hole surface of the CR with 2,5cm fiberglass covered with tissue plus some wood for diffusing would do any good? I would keep the broadband panels as well.
Something like the pic I'm posting now...
Thanks again for your time!

Sam
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Building/Designing small studio-98giu333.jpg  
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