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New room, help me with the acoustics.
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Rythm'BackStudio
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#1
9th March 2013
Old 9th March 2013
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New room, help me with the acoustics.

My new room is mainly going to be a mixing room, with the ability to record vocals.

My plan is to make the acoustics as good as possible but also make a couple of moveable absorbers which I can bring in when I need to record vocals (they can be stored in another room).

The room is aprox. 9*3,5 meters.

I have a couple of questions regarding the sketch of the room:

- What is your thought on the speaker placement, especially regarding the window. As shown, I would make a reflector (Ethan Winer-style) on the opposite side, but will that be enough? Other suggestions?

- How would you suggest to build the cornertraps? I was thinking of using the Rockwool as-is in the plastic and place them on top of eachother. I am looking for the best effect, will the super-chunk style be better?

- What would you suggest to do with the back-end (vocal tracking area) of the room?

There will also be absorber clouds hanging from the ceiling. They will follow where the absorption is placed on the wall.

With all that absorption I am afraid of getting a too dead sounding room. Where would you suggest to use diffusion instead of absorption, and what kind?

Any input is appreciated.
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New room, help me with the acoustics.-new-studio.jpg  
#2
9th March 2013
Old 9th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythm'BackStudio View Post
- What is your thought on the speaker placement, especially regarding the window. As shown, I would make a reflector (Ethan Winer-style) on the opposite side, but will that be enough? Other suggestions?
I would not place a reflective surface at the first reflection point, regardless of what Ethan-style says. I'd have broadband traps on both sides and since you are amenable to portable traps, having one at the right side window is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythm'BackStudio View Post
- - How would you suggest to build the cornertraps? I was thinking of using the Rockwool as-is in the plastic and place them on top of eachother. I am looking for the best effect, will the super-chunk style be better?
Given those two choices, I'd go with SCs. You might also want to look into VPRs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythm'BackStudio View Post
- - What would you suggest to do with the back-end (vocal tracking area) of the room?
Deal with the mix portion of the room first, including room acoustics measurements as you progress, then move on to the vocal tracking area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythm'BackStudio View Post
- With all that absorbtion I am afraid of getting a too dead sounding room. Where would you suggest to use diffusion instead of absorbtion, and what kind?
Diffusion in th eback wall seems logical. Slats on the SCs perhaps. Deal with the modes then add reflective surface to bring back the mids/highs. There are many approaches for this but first things first - deal with the LF modal distribution.
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9th March 2013
Old 9th March 2013
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Tips

I think you must have misread something by Ethan. Reflective surfaces at the sides would not be helpful unless they are angled to redirect. Absorption on both sides will eliminate the window in effect. On stands if you want the light when not mixing.
SSC's are fine things but only when they are very big. I find the 24 inch wide ones disappointing, but the 34" very useful.
VPR is indeed a more space efficient design, particularly if you fear the 'dead'.

Given that singers use headphones and that room tone is generally unwelcome, I have doubts about making the vocal area live. I wouldn't want to try recording close to full blown diffusion. But 50% Slats can do no harm and they look great. Certainly include a substantial cloud.

DD
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9th March 2013
Old 9th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I think you must have misread something by Ethan. Reflective surfaces at the sides would not be helpful unless they are angled to redirect. Absorption on both sides will eliminate the window in effect. On stands if you want the light when not mixing.
Exactly.

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9th March 2013
Old 9th March 2013
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Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I find the 24 inch wide ones disappointing, but the 34" very useful.
Yea, it helps to move out towards that quarter wavelength.
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10th March 2013
Old 10th March 2013
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Thank you all for your input.

I am sorry if my first post implies that Ethan said that you can use a reflector at the first reflection point. That is of course not true, and not what I tried to ask. Sorry Ethan

My reason for asking was this video, where they use a reflector on the opposite side of the window to keep the stereoimage controlled.

RealTraps - MiniTraps Demonstration

My only thought was to keep the window because of the light, keep the stereo image, and was unsure of how big a problem the window/reflector situation would be. As far as I can understand it is a big problem. I guess I have to cover it with absorption.

The VPR traps seems very interesting. I have been reading a lot about it.
It seems like a very "new" option and it is not as tried and true like some of the other options...
The only measurements I could find was from G.E., very impressive. Should I worry or just go for it?

Will the room suffer if I use the VPR construction everywhere?

If you were to choose, would you use the VPR construction in the corners or for the panels. Where the VPR is not used I would make traps out of Rockwool...
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10th March 2013
Old 10th March 2013
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Quote:
Given that singers use headphones and that room tone is generally unwelcome, I have doubts about making the vocal area live. I wouldn't want to try recording close to full blown diffusion. But 50% Slats can do no harm and they look great. Certainly include a substantial cloud.
Agreed
More here
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?
Product video but explains how the concept works.
GIK Acoustics Scatter Plate Product Video
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Built in Slat design (Scattering/Diffusion) on all Bass Traps click here
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10th March 2013
Old 10th March 2013
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VPR

I have yet to try the VPR myself, but one of my issues is at 35Hz.
I am a bit apprehensive about the weight and cost of 3mm steel.
While the tests show they are brilliant up at the extremely useful 80Hz region, I am not sure that practical 1mm VPR's would address 35Hz at all.
Interestingly only 3 large SSC, with max depth of 43cm have halved the length of this 35Hz mode. At that frequency they are 1/22 of the wavelength.
But the large SSC has twice the amount of fibre compared to the 2 foot wide one.
Given this, a very deep back wall treatment is hinted at.
DD
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10th March 2013
Old 10th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythm'BackStudio View Post
My reason for asking was this video, where they use a reflector on the opposite side of the window to keep to stereoimage controlled.
You are correct, that video is somewhat misleading. The point of the curved reflector is to reduce flutter echo between the left and right walls, not to deal with early reflections.

--Ethan
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11th March 2013
Old 11th March 2013
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New design

So, here is a new design. Let me know what you think.

VPR's will be built with 2mm Steelplate, 1 meter wide and 2 meters high.

Clouds will be built with Rockwool.

I have also attached a picture of how I am thinking of cutting the rockwool for the Superchunks. - What do you think of that? They will be an odd triangel, but there will be a lot of mass.

VPR's in the corner might be a good thing, but the ceiling is quite high which means A LOT of metal, and in odd size = EXPENSIVE... That is the reason why I chose SC for this design.
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New room, help me with the acoustics.-new-studio-vers.-1.1.jpg   New room, help me with the acoustics.-superchunk-cut.jpg  
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11th March 2013
Old 11th March 2013
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Tweaks

Great sketchupping!
However some fundamentals need to be addressed.

The optimum speaker and listener positions can end up anywhere. 38%, far from the wall, all nonsense. Only testing will get you to the sweet spot.
And treatment will alter this.
So don't install the Listen Position Cloud until you know for sure where your LP and Speaker Postions will be. The Cloud will end up located between these two positions, not centred over either of them. If big enough it can include either or both, but it's main job is to prevent bounce which would be half way between the two, as in snooker.

Note these VPR tests are of a 2.5mm device. It does well at 40Hz but not so good below.
These are strictly pressure devices, they need to be located at high pressure points in your room. This calculator will give you a decent idea where they are. hunecke.de | Room Eigenmodes Calculator
You will note that all the modes end up with hot spots in the corners.
There are very strong arguments to be made for Front Wall VPRs, both in the corners and on the Front Wall.

If you want to use them at the side reflection points, which should do wonders with your width modes, you need to address HF reflection.
Look up RFZ at RealTraps or GIK.
VPR's can be made with Isobond on both sides. Say 75mm on one side, 25mm on the other. Also angling them to direct sound towards the back, away from you, should be very helpful.

DD
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11th March 2013
Old 11th March 2013
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11th March 2013
Old 11th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post

Note these VPR tests are of a 2.5mm device. It does well at 40Hz but not so good below.
These are strictly pressure devices, they need to be located at high pressure points in your room. This calculator will give you a decent idea where they are. hunecke.de | Room Eigenmodes Calculator
You will note that all the modes end up with hot spots in the corners.
There are very strong arguments to be made for Front Wall VPRs, both in the corners and on the Front Wall.

DD
Another option would be:

- Using 2.5 mm VPR's in corners and frontwall

- Use rockwool trapping everywhere else, also on the sides (first and early reflection points) where I had placed VPR's before.

Would you recommend that over the other design?
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11th March 2013
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14th March 2013
Old 14th March 2013
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I am about to start ordering materials. I have found 2.5 mm steel at a very reasonable price.

2 questions:

- Given the choice, not thinking about price. Would you go for big SuperChunks or VPR's straddling in the corner?

- Given the choice, not thinking about price. Would you go for VPR's or something like GIK's Monster trap at the first reflection point on the side walls?
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14th March 2013
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Quote:
- Given the choice, not thinking about price. Would you go for VPR's or something like GIK's Monster trap at the first reflection point on the side walls?
For early reflection points I would recommend either the 242 or the 244 if going with our products.
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14th March 2013
Old 14th March 2013
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Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
For early reflection points I would recommend either the 242 or the 244 if going with our products.
OK.

I am really conscious about getting the lowend right, from there it should be easier to get the rest of the spectrum sorted out. Right?
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14th March 2013
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Yes I would focus on the low end control. For the most part you do not treat low end control in the early reflection points. Not that it is wrong to do it that way but focusing on corners will give you the largest band for the buck. Just to be clear though you do want to still treat the early reflection points.
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12th May 2013
Old 12th May 2013
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So my project is moving along really well.

In the end I decided to go with a lot of Rockwool in the corners instead of VPR's. No one I know (locally) have ever build VPR's, so it was a bit too risky for me, I might add a couple later though. Early reflectionpoints will also be treated with Rockwool.

I have started doing measurements of the listeners position. I would love to hear what you guys think.

I started with a bunch of different positions and ended up with three positions which was clearly better than the rest: A, B, C. There is also A2, B2 and B3, those are extra measurements between the first 3 positions.

Which one would you chose?

- Program used: REW V5
- The measurements are made with only the left speaker.
- It is located approx. 30 cm from the left wall and approx. 30 cm from the frontwall.
- A DPA 4006 mic was used.
- The frontwall is treated with rockwool as superchunks in the corners and the whole mid-section of the wall is also covered with 30 cm rockwool. Other than that the room is completely empty.

Downloadlink to the whole REW file:
http://we.tl/NEAHdqvReq
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12th May 2013
Old 12th May 2013
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Interactive

Glad to hear your project is coming along well. Optimum speaker and Listener Positions are interactive. I would start with the speakers pretty much touching the Front Wall. Let's assume Height is fixed, tweeter at ear level. Pick a likely width within the practical range of options. Play Pink Noise PN over both speakers using the REW Generator. Find the optimum LP by moving the mic about while watching the Spectrum analyser in REW, Zoomed to LF only.
New room, help me with the acoustics.-screen-shot-2013-05-12-21.38.28.jpg
Now try changing the width, 50mm at a time, taking sweep measurements.
Better or worse is usually pretty obvious. Settle on the optimum Width and check the LP again. Now take the 0 distance from Front Wall Sweep measurement. I think both L+R speakers running is good in this work.
As height and width are now pretty much set we can now take a series of measurements moving the speakers away from the Front Wall in 50mm increments. Remember to optimise the LP for each new speaker position before each sweep.

DD
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12th May 2013
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DanDan. You sir, are an absolute gentleman.

I will use that method, and make new measurements. Thank you sooo much
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