Whats going on over at the REW forum

[DanDan]

Well, you sound like you really know stuff.
You should probably contact the people at JBL, Genelec, DEQ, Trinnov, ARC, MiniDSP, REW, KRK, Dirac etc. etc. and suggest they stop wasting their time on this foolish exercise.
But in the real world...
ARC 2 Advanced Room Correction System is now available from IK Multimedia

DD

[Radial185]

Nice sarcasm! You work for one of these companies?Are you actually seriously saying any of those systems can kill time domain problems? Good lord.

What are we all doing here then? Just get ARC or the beloved Dirac or similar and to hell with the itchy stuff then!

[DanDan]

Just a little poke Radial. I work for myself only and have paid full price for every product I have endorsed over the years. I am Beta testing Dirac at the moment.
I, nor anyone else that I know of, claims DRC to be a replacement for Acoustic Treatment. Look at the link. I claim nothing other than that the tests I did were totally honest.

DD

[Radial185]

Fair enough Dan. Very interesting that you are using DIRAC. Tell me, I'm very curious, how to program's like these compensate for nulls effectively? Now I am not a expert, I'm far from it , but if I'm not mistaken it would take double the power from an amp to produce just a 3db difference in a null when boosting. How does it get round the electrical laws to do this?

Also, I have read that none of these room correction program's can fix flutter echo, so there is something else it won't have an effect on.

I know no one is saying these things are a replacement for treatment. Maybe then, room correction software is only correcting small problems, rather than 10db nulls etc?

I do have a look at REW, a lot are using various forms of room correction in completely untreated rooms so I don't understand how that could work either.

These questions are asked in good faith in the quest to better my own understanding. Thanks.

Also I apologise for my harshness in the post above. Not called for.

[Syncamorea]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I work for myself only and have paid full price for every product I have endorsed over the years.

Dan, you've got to learn to shop around! Here in the states, it's not unusual to find a reputable seller that will go 5 to 15% below street, without any pressure on the seller.

[jim1961]

Originally Posted by Radial185

Fair enough Dan. Very interesting that you are using DIRAC. Tell me, I'm very curious, how to program's like these compensate for nulls effectively? Now I am not a expert, I'm far from it , but if I'm not mistaken it would take double the power from an amp to produce just a 3db difference in a null when boosting. How does it get round the electrical laws to do this?

Also, I have read that none of these room correction program's can fix flutter echo, so there is something else it won't have an effect on.

I know no one is saying these things are a replacement for treatment. Maybe then, room correction software is only correcting small problems, rather than 10db nulls etc?

I do have a look at REW, a lot are using various forms of room correction in completely untreated rooms so I don't understand how that could work either.

These questions are asked in good faith in the quest to better my own understanding. Thanks.

Also I apologise for my harshness in the post above. Not called for.

Those are good questions. Audyssey is another "toy" that I wonder if it does the wonders its tauted to do.

On the surface, fixing a 10db null through software mean a +10db boost from the amp. If this is so, your 100 watt amp just became a 10 watt one, not to mention major stress on your speaker.

[AwwDeOhh]

From my (non-expert) gathering, these types of things are best used as a final step after all is done that reasonably can-- by normal treatment methods. IMO it is another tool in the toolbox, not a complete replacement for the toolbox. YMMV

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

From my (non-expert) gathering, these types of things are best used as a final step after all is done that reasonably can-- by normal treatment methods. IMO it is another tool in the toolbox, not a complete replacement for the toolbox. YMMV

Plus one and very well said. Just to add, if the room is treated properly (which you have to do anyway) it is rare you even need EQ and if you do it is on problems that are most of the time below 40hz. Not to say you can't treat that low, but it can become pretty tricky and expensive.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by jim1961

On the surface, fixing a 10db null through software mean a +10db boost from the amp.

That's not quite right.... If there is a 10dB dip - adding 10dB will not increase volume by 10dB because this would assume that none of what you're adding will in fact be affected, which is not possible..

I would add this - if there is a point in a room where a signal is 180 degrees out of phase with a reflected signal - thus zero amplitude at that point, adding amplitude will not change the fact of total cancellation in that location.

Rod

[Glenn Kuras]

Using EQ to "fix" room acoustics is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Using EQ to "fix" room acoustics is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

+1

[jim1961]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

That's not quite right.... If there is a 10dB dip - adding 10dB will not increase volume by 10dB because this would assume that none of what you're adding will in fact be affected, which is not possible..

I would add this - if there is a point in a room where a signal is 180 degrees out of phase with a reflected signal - thus zero amplitude at that point, adding amplitude will not change the fact of total cancellation in that location.

Rod

Well yes. I was really being figurative not literal. I suppose if its a home theater system with 5 or more speakers, you could add at different locations thus compensating where the phase is different.

[Syncamorea]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Using EQ to "fix" room acoustics is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I'm in big agreement here. I must admit, however, that I've heard successful application of large PA technology involving cancellation, EQ and related room correction. I'm not by any means the biggest Metallica fan on the planet, but I'm glad I took my kids to see them at the Pepsi Center so I could hear their MeyerSound PA. I've seen many shows at the Pepsi Center but none compared to the control they got with that Meyer PA. I have a feeling that it has artifacts but that the net effect is very worth it. For a studio, CR or mastering room, design and treatment are the obvious starting places.

[boggy]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

.......
I would add this - if there is a point in a room where a signal is 180 degrees out of phase with a reflected signal - thus zero amplitude at that point, adding amplitude will not change the fact of total cancellation in that location.

Rod

Absolutely!
+1