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How hard is too hard?
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AndreBenoit
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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How hard is too hard?

Hello again all those who are wise & slutty,

When using rubber/neoprene to isolate floors/stud wall foot plates etc from say, a concrete floor, how hard or soft a rubber are you looking for?
I would like to thank AdHoc for bringing my education up to speed as far as compression set values & tensile strength of products, but I still don't know how this relates to my needs.
Obviously the ideal situation is a low compression set value with high tensile strength & a relatively soft product, but this is all calculated in "shores" which I have no understanding of...how many shores would you consider too hard to be of use? What about the other values?

Andre
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Hi Andre

Your questions are relevant, and indeed crucial, as to whether or not the materials in question provide the required isolation, safely, down to the lowest frequency of interest for the design load.

Rather than get bogged down in the theoretical engineering (and dimensional units) may I suggest that you talk to a provider of the type of isolation products that you need? I am not sure what country you are in, however, here is a link to a UK company that specialises in products for isolation of structures:- Sylomer®. I have studied noise and vibration isolation formally, however, it is not my specialisation and I would wish to consult the professionals who have made it their business to specialise in. After all, whatever you build, you need to have the confidence that it stays built.

There is a also a mine of technical information on this site, so if you do indeed wish to study the science more deeply I am sure it will be enlightening and open up additional lines of study. I hope this helps.

Rgds
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Bond

Sourcing an appropriate material when you need it and affordable can be difficult to impossible. Certainly on this small remote island.

Aside, I have often wondered how to fix the floor and ceiling plate to the structure while maintaining the benefit of the resilient layer.
A GS answered this nicely for me. Glue.

DD
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Make certain when using a product of this nature that you carefully analyze the various loads in order to reach your goal.

You will have very different loads within a room enclosure depending on whether it is a bearing wall - nonbearing wall, door opening (and there whether is it the hinge side of the frame or the latch side of that frame) - and as such it is not as simple as it might seem at first glance.

Rod
AndreBenoit
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Sourcing an appropriate material when you need it and affordable can be difficult to impossible. Certainly on this small remote island.

Aside, I have often wondered how to fix the floor and ceiling plate to the structure while maintaining the benefit of the resilient layer.
A GS answered this nicely for me. Glue.

DD
Glue of the green variety or just regular old wood glue?

Andre
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Sourcing an appropriate material when you need it and affordable can be difficult to impossible. Certainly on this small remote island.

Aside, I have often wondered how to fix the floor and ceiling plate to the structure while maintaining the benefit of the resilient layer.
A GS answered this nicely for me. Glue.

DD
DD,

Please explain this in depth as I cannot get a picture of this firmly planted in my mind.

Rod
AndreBenoit
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais View Post
Make certain when using a product of this nature that you carefully analyze the various loads in order to reach your goal.

You will have very different loads within a room enclosure depending on whether it is a bearing wall - nonbearing wall, door opening (and there whether is it the hinge side of the frame or the latch side of that frame) - and as such it is not as simple as it might seem at first glance.

Rod
Nothing is ever simple! I'm only converting a small garage & the amount of things I've had to school myself in so far is unreal, it's all part of the experience though I guess.

If I calculate the heaviest part of the room & find material to cope with it, would it be ok to assume that said material will handle the lesser load areas? It really just doesn't feel right having the stud work sitting on bare concrete!

Thanks Rod, really appreciate the input

Andre
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreBenoit View Post
Nothing is ever simple! I'm only converting a small garage & the amount of things I've had to school myself in so far is unreal, it's all part of the experience though I guess.

If I calculate the heaviest part of the room & find material to cope with it, would it be ok to assume that said material will handle the lesser load areas? It really just doesn't feel right having the stud work sitting on bare concrete!

Thanks Rod, really appreciate the input

Andre
Andre,

The problem with that approach is that unless the product is properly compressed you will not achieve the isolation afforded by the product. And properly compressed is all of what this is about.

Overcompress and it's a transmitter - undercompress and it's a transmitter. In order to isolate it has to be compressed according to it's design properties. This is the why of having the same material with differing compression strengths offered by the manufacturers of those products.

I used spring isolators to carry the walls/ceiling when I designed Perfect Mixes in NY because he was building on the 1st floor of the building (basement below) and isolation from the remainder of the house and neighbors was critical to him. I had to carefully calculate all of the loads imparted to the walls and in the end we had probably 4 or 5 different isolators we needed in order to accomplish the end results - which was excellent when it came down to isolation.

The real question here becomes this (in my mind anyway) in a garage do you really need to worry about this in the first place?

Even in the case of attached garages, I can't think of a single time I have had to use this approach when providing design for a client.

Rod
AndreBenoit
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19th January 2013
Old 19th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais View Post
Overcompress and it's a transmitter - undercompress and it's a transmitter.
This principle I had forgotten about! Please forgive my n00bishness, nothing quite beats making schoolboy errors in front of those you aspire to!

With that being said, I think this becomes too big for my skill level & my budget, obviously I want this to be the best it can be but I've got to be realistic. Such a small space is already a bundle of compromises, I think the money this would take up is probably better invested in another layer of drywall!

Thanks again, the woods just going on the concrete!

Andre
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20th January 2013
Old 20th January 2013
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I would be careful about that. Wood directly on concrete can be "dangerous" as common concrete readily transports water. If you are unlucky the wood may start to rot in the future. Put some bitumen under studs towards the floor, and also keep an air distance between wood stud and a concrete outer wall. (Bitumen actually has very good internal damping which is good.)
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