Speaker Stands/Behaviour of speakers mounted on desktop
Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#1
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #1
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Speaker Stands/Behaviour of speakers mounted on desktop

Hi all

Had a quick search and couldn't find a thread this specific so here goes:

I hear that with speaker stands one needs to strike the right balance of mass and isolation, enough to tighten up the speaker, but not too much to transfer too much vibration or 'shock-mount' a speaker, smearing the transients.

Unfortunately I don't have too much money left after buying all my furniture, only about £50(~$80), and I want to mount my Adam A7s better than they currently are (flimsy plastic upturned boxes)

So I could either get something like these:
Ultimate Support MS70 Adjustable Speaker Stands (Pair) | Andertons
which i could mount behind my desk on the floor

or

Just grab some dense bricks, stack them Jenga style and put a little swatch of carpet on top and bottom for isolation, then standing them actually on the surface of my desk to raise the speakers to the appropriate height for about a third the price of the stands.

Do you guys think those 'proper' stands would be honestly worth trying? They definitely look a bit 'budget'... they don't look like they'd be particularly heavy and I thought the middle pole might ring.

At a guess I would assume the bricks would be better as they'd be heavier, even if they were stacked only a few inches high, and acoustically dead. I have seen on threads here that people have had success with bricks, but not necessarily on a tabletop.

Trouble is, do you think the desk (not absolutely solid, but definitely not flimsy) underneath the bricks might cause a problem with being too flexible so as to smear my transient response or do you think the bricks might provide enough inertia to keep my monitors rooted to the spot?

I know a small amount about room acoustics, but am not particularly clued up on the behaviour of the direct transfer of energy from a speaker to a surface it is touching!

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Cheers
#2
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #2
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DanDan's Avatar
Confusion

The speaker stand issue is a morasse of contradictions.
Spikes claim to provide a stable and direct contact with speaker or floor, but others claim the thin point helps isolation. Really?
If speakers are mounted on resilient material, e.g. Sorbothane, why does the stand need to be massive and stable?

Brick will work fine to really well. I would at least put a square of carpet or even better some Mopads or Sorbothane Isolators under the speakers.
This will isolate the speaker from the concrete (which conducts sound very well). You need to trade off actual isolation from say Sorbo hemispheres, vs the cabinet damping caused by a full square of softer material, say carpet.

I would go for brick or a DIY wooden or even PVC pipe stand rather than cheap steel stuff from the East. Really good steel stands cost a lot and are really good! See towersonic.com

DD
#3
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
If speakers are mounted on resilient material, e.g. Sorbothane, why does the stand need to be massive and stable?
So the monitors don't end up trashed on the floor from a little bump?

Dan's DIY advice is right on. Bricks or cinder blocks are a great foundation. Lead shot filled wood stands work great. Either make the height adjustable or carefully work it out in advance.
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2
#4
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #4
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
The speaker stand issue is a morasse of contradictions.
Ya think?

Empty cardboard boxes of the right size work well and are free.

--Ethan

The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Attached Thumbnails
Speaker Stands/Behaviour of speakers mounted on desktop-speaker-box.jpg  
#5
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #5
Lives for gear
Sorry, I'd never use anything as resonant as a cardboard box.

Or was that just a troll?
#6
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #6
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DanDan's Avatar
Books

Sounds like you didn't spot the thin box under the speaker in the photo Sync. Hardly resonating! Speaking of which, in guerrilla situations, e.g. a location, I have used large speaker shipping boxes stuffed with squished up newspaper as bass traps. Seemed to help.
+1 on the height issue. Cardboard Boxes, filled if it seems necessary, and large Text books, Telephone directories etc. can be used to adjust height to find the optimum before going for the bricks. And yes I would rather bump into a brick than see my monitors crash to the floor....:-)

DD
jwl
#7
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #7
jwl
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My favorite ghetto speaker stands are stacked cinder blocks. Plenty of mass. Works well.

Regarding spikes, the theory is that by reducing the contact down to (almost) a single point, it minimizes the surface area of contact between the speaker and the floor, thereby decoupling them. At least that's the theory as I understand it, I personally don't really use spikes much.
Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#8
10th January 2013
Old 10th January 2013
  #8
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Thread Starter
Many thanks for all the replies guys, looks like no matter what I do It's gonna involve some cinder blocks or bricks rather than some metal stands (luckily I kinda like the raw industrial look

My main issue however is whether all the goodness done by paying attention the material and layering of carpet and so on is going to be completely negated by having this little rig on the top of my desk. If floorstanding is my only option, then floorstanding it is, but see the second on the left stack in this pic under the 'r' in 'Draw':


Pretty much thinking of something like that under each speaker, just raising it by about 6 inches, placed on the actual surface of my desk. As mentioned before the desk is not particularly flimsy but not absolutely rock solid, inch thick worktop, metal frame underneath, metal legs: Ikea GALANT: GALANT Desk - birch veneer, A-leg, silver-colour - IKEA... Yes/no?

Will likely be using some of these engineering bricks, denser and heavier than 'regular' bricks:


Then for a few pounds I can buy a 20x20inch/50x50cm sample of carpet from a local shop for the isolation/protection from scratches!

Is this method likely to be of any use at all or are placing these bricks as stands on something like a desk undoing all potential they have?
Audio X
#9
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #9
Audio X
Guest
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague_Cell View Post
Hi all
I would suggest buying the stands or making floor standing stands. The desk that you linked is to shallow to place the A7's on and still be conducive to proper monitoring at your listening position.

For distance.. An equal triangle is a good starting point with the speakers toed in a bit. If you speakers are 5 feet apart, you want to be at least 5 feet from either speaker.

For height.. tweeter at ear height is a good starting point.
You can de-couple with a mouse pad, carpet.. whatever. gl
#10
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Sounds like you didn't spot the thin box under the speaker in the photo Sync. Hardly resonating!
Sure I did. Please don't try to tell me that even a small cardboard box is preferred material for speaker stands.

Yes, even small cardboard boxes are resonant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Speaking of which, in guerrilla situations, e.g. a location, I have used large speaker shipping boxes stuffed with squished up newspaper as bass traps. Seemed to help.
I doubt that Ethan and Glenn are quaking in fear about lost sales to Dan's Shipping Box Bass Traps Inc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
large Text books, Telephone directories etc. can be used to adjust height to find the optimum before going for the bricks.
You bet. My dream speaker stand is remote controlled with reproducible micropositioning.
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2
#11
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #11
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Resonance

I would like to see a measurement of the resonance of a cardboard box under a relatively heavy speaker Sync. While I am sure Ethan's suggestion was whimsical there is as usual substance to his humour. The relatively light and relatively limp cardboard should do quite a good job at decoupling a speaker from a desk.

jwl, afaik, vibration conduction through a narrow point will be in no way restricted compared to a larger area. I believe the point contact will have tremendously increased pressure per square whatever. Thus much better contact than a larger meeting area. This is the part of the morass of contradiction I referred to way back. I am open to being informed otherwise on this, perhaps someone with a strong understanding of the physics?

Cell, I see no harm in placing a few bricks on your substantial desk. I would however decouple them from that desk, using say, carpet. Prevent scratching too.
Similarly I would decouple the speakers from the bricks with carpet or Sorbothane hemisphers. I very much doubt that there will be any audible difference between this and a Telephone directory or for that matter a cardboard box, but your speaker will be solidly supported and resiliently isolated. So much for the practice, but what about the theory? ;-)

DD
Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#12
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #12
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for the further replies everyone, I did actually mock up my entire room in 3d and mostly I was having a problem with space. I'm just having to accept that my speakers are going to go near a wall while I live at this flat (there's a music studio out back if I wanna just double check a mix anyway)
Because of this I needed to get my desk as close to the wall as possible so as not to be cramped near my bed. The cinder blocks are narrower than the stands so it would give me enough room to butt the desk up against them, as well as being scarily EXACTLY the right height for speaker stands when two are stacked.

Not entirely ruling out bricks on the desk though, if I go that route I'll get a deeper desk so I'm not jammed right up next to them!

Might post the sketchup model at some point and ask for opinions on the two setups and also the inevitable OH GOD WHY IS IT IN A CORNER YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG grafhtohdvdfnzxidsandsg


#13
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #13
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DanDan's Avatar
Fine

Quote:
I'm just having to accept that my speakers are going to go near a wall
This is very often the best place for them in a small room. Speaker and listener position are very powerful free aspects for tweaking. Take a look at the graph at the end of the measurement primer. That large improvement was done by position alone. And the speakers ended up almost touching the Front Wall.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...er-v2-1-a.html

DD
#14
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #14
Gear addict
 

Provisional stand for testing

If you have plenty of time (and limited funds)


1. With help of a movable, hight-adjustable ”provisional stand” find out (step by step) optimum monitor/ listening-positions including desk by measuring and listening for smoothest bass response.
This thread will describe several interesting methods.

Speaker placement methods

2. Then, when you know the optimum positions, construct clever stands for your speakers.

3. If you are picky, include shock mounts. (Sorbothane , Sylomer etc sized for appropiate load from spkr cab )

The fast and common method:

Just put loudspeakers where they look cool


Cheers

ake
#15
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #15
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I would like to see a measurement of the resonance of a cardboard box under a relatively heavy speaker Sync. While I am sure Ethan's suggestion was whimsical there is as usual substance to his humour. The relatively light and relatively limp cardboard should do quite a good job at decoupling a speaker from a desk.
Exactly, and I was certainly serious. If you tap the empty boxes under my speakers you hear only a dull non-resonant thud. Even if it did resonate, that would be fixed by stuffing it with fully fiberglass or even crumpled up paper towels. So who is the real troll in this thread?

--Ethan
#16
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Exactly, and I was certainly serious. If you tap the empty boxes under my speakers you hear only a dull non-resonant thud. Even if it did resonate, that would be fixed by stuffing it with fully fiberglass or even crumpled up paper towels. So who is the real troll in this thread?

--Ethan
You and Dan are free to conduct a serious study of your beloved cardboard stands. You said empty so your idea to stuff them now is hedging bets.

But you guys are seriously going to talk about cardboard box speaker stands, huh? Why should anyone pay big bucks for Ethan's traps if we can just stuff our tracking and control rooms with dull non resonant empty boxes? The hole is getting deeper so keep that shovel moving.

When you place your monitors that low, do you sit on the floor cross-legged?

"Empty cardboard boxes of the right size work well and are free."
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3
#17
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

What the heck is up with some people here?

#18
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #18
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DanDan's Avatar
Porridge

Indeed. Sync has somebody been sleeping in your porridge?
Is there a subforum for antagonistics here?

I was talking about cardboard boxes, telephone directories, etc. etc. as TEMPORARY height adjusting helpers.
The cogent point here being that height adjustment is well worth experimenting with.
DD
#19
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
What the heck is up with some people here?

Since you appointed yourself cop, maybe you should realize that when a retailer such as yourself* tells people to use cardboard boxes for monitor stands, it seems bizarre to pay you hundreds or thousands of dollars to treat rooms. Seriously, step back and think about if you want to tell someone that's asking for some specific help (see quote below) to use cardboard boxes for stands. Really?

*: you make your living doing this, right?

----

Part of the OP:

"Trouble is, do you think the desk (not absolutely solid, but definitely not flimsy) underneath the bricks might cause a problem with being too flexible so as to smear my transient response or do you think the bricks might provide enough inertia to keep my monitors rooted to the spot?

I know a small amount about room acoustics, but am not particularly clued up on the behaviour of the direct transfer of energy from a speaker to a surface it is touching!"

----

So tell me, Ethan, do you use non-transient-smearing boxes or are they everyday ordinary empty boxes? Low energy transfer boxes? How about when you do flush mounting? Is the structure of your flush mounts an empty cardboard box? If you want to know what cardboard resonance sounds like, check this out:

http://www.jacksonbrowne.com/discogr...ning-on-empty/

Listen to "Nothing But Time". That kick drum was (according to Lindley) a "cardboard box full of dirty clothes". Yes, yes, yes, I know that Ethan's speaker stand box is smaller, but when we're in the midst of spending so much money, thought, time, work, etc., to improve the sound of our mixes, why would we add ANY unintentional resonance to our rooms? People come here to get better sounding rooms, mixes that translate, etc.

I spent 15 years specializing in research involving adhesives for wood fiber and different methods for layering, compositing, mounting, decoupling, de-resonating, etc., etc. My employer was the world leader in the field and my work was a key part of them getting there. We had outstanding capabilities for studying panel deformation under load, OK? With wood fiber materials, from publication grade report covers to structural fiberboard, understand? I'm not giving you idle speculation. Place your bets, then go perform the measurements *YOU* requested.

Get to know the designers of the best monitors on earth in a range of price points and see what they think of the resonance of cardboard...
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#20
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Indeed. Sync has somebody been sleeping in your porridge?
Is there a subforum for antagonistics here?

I was talking about cardboard boxes, telephone directories, etc. etc. as TEMPORARY height adjusting helpers.
The cogent point here being that height adjustment is well worth experimenting with.
DD
I don't see anything about temporary in Ethan's first post to this thread. That was the jumping off point for this house of cardboard.

And put the halt on the name-calling, OK? The OP wants real advice on his monitor stands and you two defend cardboard boxes?

Hat Off To Jules
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#21
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #21
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
Technically

A speaker placed on top of a cardboard box, something else used as a riser under that, at the bottom a plastic step.
Pictures speaking louder than a thousand works, this looks pretty temporary to me.

Again, I would not consider a cardboard box, a fairly limp substance, under pressure from a weight, as resonant. I would also regard it as having some decoupling effect from whatever is underneath. More say than a brick or book for instance.
When tapped such small boxes have no audible LF. Seems to me the claim that such small cardboard boxes resonate (to any significant extent in this conext), is simply incorrect.

DD
#22
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Seems to me the claim that such small cardboard boxes resonate (to any significant extent in this conext), is simply incorrect.
So empty cardboard boxes don't resonate? Show your proof.

When people spend tens of thousands of dollars on gear, treatments, instruments, etc., then are pointed to empty cardboard boxes for monitor stands, I will call BS. You're free to interpret Ethan's photo as temporary. His posted words do not suggest that. You're grasping at straws. The OP was not asking for a temporary fix and fortunatley, he didn't jump on Ethan's advice.

Another perspective: my monitors are heavy. There is no way in hell I'm putting them on an empty cardboard box. I work hard to afford my studio gear and I'm not going to have the mass of my monitor crush a box and send the monitor to the floor. No friken way!
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#23
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #23
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DanDan's Avatar
Proof

Quote:
So empty cardboard boxes don't resonate? Show your proof.
I wouldn't attempt to prove a negative, I believe the suggestion that they do resonate started with Sync. Thus if proof were required, (hardly) it should come from the proposer.
More importantly, what I actually said was that this particular small cardboard box would not resonate significantly in context.
This is pretty self evident IMO.

And again, the cogent point is the use of temporary measures to optimise height.

DD
#24
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I wouldn't attempt to prove a negative, I believe the suggestion that they do resonate started with Sync. Thus if proof were required, (hardly) it should come from the proposer.
More importantly, what I actually said was that this particular small cardboard box would not resonate significantly in context.
This is pretty self evident IMO.

And again, the cogent point is the use of temporary measures to optimise height.

DD
Ethan's quote:

"Empty cardboard boxes of the right size work well and are free."

Nothing there about temporary.

I won't bother measuring empty cardboard box resonance because I'm not about to put my monitors on them! I actually take monitor stands seriously. But you and Ethan should start up a business and see how they sell. That would be all the proof you need.

The truth is, you KNOW cardboard boxes resonate, because you know about panel resonators and the fundamentals of acoustics. It looks like you're trying to cover for Ethan's sloppiness and that is lame. And you know that my point about using cardboard to support expensive and massive monitors is bogus.

What's next, Dan?

Hat Off To Jules

See post 476 in context of this thread. The whole thing, really, but especially the irony there...
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Audio X
#25
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #25
Audio X
Guest
 

If you don't have the proper sized card board boxes, you can try putting full double ply toilet paper rolls under each corner of the speaker... this gives height and decoupling at the same time, ..you can stack them as well .. and hey.... if you ever have to go.. you can always spare a little tissue,... but be careful it's like playing Jenga.... I used to do this when I had my studio in a van.. down by the river....
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Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#26
11th January 2013
Old 11th January 2013
  #26
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Thread Starter
I think I'm officially a member of the forum now, it is surely a rite of passage to have a thread one has created derail and descend into techy arguments about the acoustic properties of mundane objects, I love you guys! :3

Surely a cardboard box will exhibit resonation, though surely very broadband and short-lived? Not certain though... I find acoustics fascinating and the deeper and geekier the concept the better, s'nice when my brain starts to hurt, means I'm learning something:D

@akebrake: Of course I would very much like to take time doing that (time I actually do have) however I am rather limited in how it is possible to lay out my room! There are two places i can think to place the setup, but one I think would dominate the room a little too much, I gotta live in there :P
As soon as I get a place i own I'll be all over a dedicated music space, this to be honest is not going to be much more than a slightly more expensive than average bedroom producer setup!

Anyway, sexy pictures:

Cinder blocks




Bricks



The desk for the cinder blocks is 120x60cm/47x23in, and for the bricks 120x80cm/47x31in by the way.

Or do you think I might even be able to get away with the deeper desk right against the wall, and the speakers mounted on cinder blocks out to the sides at the back of the desk?
Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#27
12th January 2013
Old 12th January 2013
  #27
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
On second thoughts, having actually only just mocked up the bricks on the desk idea they look waaaaay too close together.... measured in sketchup, 75cm/29in tweeter to tweeter, compared to 115cm/45in for the cinder blocks... Looks like it's gonna be cinder blocks!

EDIT: and the third idea of placibg cinder blocks at the extreme ends/sides of the deeper desk butted against the wall look much too wide having just mocked that up.

I guess I'm just trying to see if anyone with more experience can see anything glaringly wrong with the top couple of pictures?
I know placement in the room is not necessarily ideal but it looks like an acceptable set of stands at a good enough distance apart no?
#28
12th January 2013
Old 12th January 2013
  #28
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DanDan's Avatar
Location

Cell, keepin it real, tap a cardboard box that size and listen for frequency content and resonance. Now place a speaker on it and tap it again.

It is a strange world when minutae speaker stand issues are considered more seriously than human interaction.

Assuming the white alcove in your sketch is a door it looks like you have no choice of speaker location. However if it is not a door but a fireplace, then I will say I have had good result mounting speakers at either side of such protrusions. Sort of half soffit if you will.
I am not clear whether you have a desk or not yet. If not, then it has to be said that a tiny one, just big enough for keyboard and mouse/trackpad is probably best. On the other hand such a big and substantial desk should eliminate a floor reflection at that close range. In any case it is worth being aware of and testing for the Desk Reflection. You can see it by ETC or more spectacularly perhaps but the combing it causes.
Desktop Reflection Revealed
DD
Plague_Cell
Thread Starter
#29
12th January 2013
Old 12th January 2013
  #29
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Cell, keepin it real, tap a cardboard box that size and listen for frequency content and resonance. Now place a speaker on it and tap it again.

It is a strange world when minutae speaker stand issues are considered more seriously than human interaction.

Assuming the white alcove in your sketch is a door it looks like you have no choice of speaker location. However if it is not a door but a fireplace, then I will say I have had good result mounting speakers at either side of such protrusions. Sort of half soffit if you will.
I am not clear whether you have a desk or not yet. If not, then it has to be said that a tiny one, just big enough for keyboard and mouse/trackpad is probably best. On the other hand such a big and substantial desk should eliminate a floor reflection at that close range. In any case it is worth being aware of and testing for the Desk Reflection. You can see it by ETC or more spectacularly perhaps but the combing it causes.
Desktop Reflection Revealed
DD
My heart aches DD, that wall at the bottom would also be my absolute top choice of placement for exactly the reason of allowing for partial soffit mounting... alas... there's a ^&%#&%!!!! radiator along that wall!... trust me I have mourned the loss of that opportunity long ago :P

I don't have the desk yet, the room is currently absolutely empty apart from that ugly-ass carpet :P

I had considered the possibility of desk reflections, and as much as I would love to have a dedicated space for music (one day... :'() the desk area will also be used for graphic design, gaming, writing and soldering so I feel I have to compromise there and get a big desk. If it comes to it I can put some absorbent padding of some sort down when it reaches the stage of critical listening and mixing, leaving me free to scatter plates and beer bottles all over the desk while doing the actual composing sessions!

...Just had a look at the thread about desk reflections and you seemed to get good results by slightly tilting the desk. The desks I've used in the model are Ikea GALANT desks, and they have a little party trick in that each leg is independently adjustable in length with infinite resolution, no preset distances, just unscrew>slide to pick length>tighten. Shouldn't be a problem getting a perfect angle :D

Many thanks for helping me, you're providing lots of useful things for me to consider!
#30
12th January 2013
Old 12th January 2013
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague_Cell View Post
I guess I'm just trying to see if anyone with more experience can see anything glaringly wrong with the top couple of pictures? I know placement in the room is not necessarily ideal but it looks like an acceptable set of stands at a good enough distance apart no?
Start with what you have and systematically vary the setup. I like to fix at least a couple of reference points to the floor so I can use them to return to a previous spot if needed. If possible, I tape the outline of thecorners of the stand's shadow line on the floor for each spot. Firing across your room as drawn can work. Think your way through the reflections that are likely to bring the most energy back to the mix position. If the white area to the right of the desk is a window, I'd probably try that as the front wall also if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
It is a strange world when minutae speaker stand issues are considered more seriously than human interaction.
Right, so spending big bucks on studio minutia is OK in your book, learning the details of room measurement minutia is OK and arguing SBIR or WTF ever minutia ad nauseum on the forum is OK, but when a retailer makes a gaffe and gets called on it, that's bad minutia?
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