Login / Register
 
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)
New Reply
Subscribe
#61
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
  #61
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Cork Ireland
Posts: 10,492

DanDan is offline
Desk

The Desk can be a big offender. Simple angling can help enormously.
Desktop Reflection Revealed

I personally use the absolute minimum sized desk. But if I had to use a big one, e.g. using a mixing desk I would try to locate it to block the floor reflection. Plus of course the angle to remove the HF issue.

DD
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#62
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
  #62
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Okey. Then I try a smaller desk and also try to tilt it.

Regarding slating the panels; does that mean to take "stripes" of wood and place it in front of the side and backwall panels including the bass traps?

Does anyone have an example picture of this? Are there any rules to follow? I saw that Glenn were suggesting putting slants vertically.

What am I looking for in the graphs when I slant? Where and how do I see improvement?

When it comes to the low end, I have as mentioned earlier, bass trapped the whole room. If I am going to control the bass more, then I have to add even thicker bass trapping?

/Henning
#63
21st November 2012
Old 21st November 2012
  #63
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Cork Ireland
Posts: 10,492

DanDan is offline
543 Slats

Newells 543 slat pattern Fronting SuperChunks.
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-543-slats.jpg Name: 543 Slats.jpg Views: 122 Size: 86.7 KB ID: 318014" style="margin: 2px" />


DD
#64
21st November 2012
Old 21st November 2012
  #64
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 16,195

Glenn Kuras is offline
Quote:
What am I looking for in the graphs when I slant? Where and how do I see improvement?
You will see an improvement of the upper frequencies. The goal is not to over absorb them, which the slats help with.
__________________
Glenn Kuras
GIK Acoustics USA
GIK Acoustics Europe
http://www.gikacoustics.de (German Translation)
404 492 8364 (USA)
+44 (0) 20 7558 8976 (Europe)

Built in Slat design (Scattering/Diffusion) on all Bass Traps click here
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#65
21st November 2012
Old 21st November 2012
  #65
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
And I guess that goes for bass traps as well as side and backwall panels? Or :-)

/Henning
#66
21st November 2012
Old 21st November 2012
  #66
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 16,195

Glenn Kuras is offline
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#67
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #67
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Hi.

Regarding the desk. I have now changed it to a smaller one. What happened is when i just put it in the same spot as the bigger one, the artifact in the high end was still there.

It is shwon in the red graph.

Since the desk was smaller, I had the posibility to move it a little bit forward, the artifact in the high end was gone.

But, now the desk is a little far away from the listening position :-) I will try to move it back and tilt it to see if that will solve the issue.

/Henning
Attached Thumbnails
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-1-23-smaller-desk-same-position.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-1-24-smaller-desk-moved.jpg  
#68
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #68
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 16,195

Glenn Kuras is offline
Can you actually hear the reflection or just see it on the test graph? No doubt it is effecting things but then again you do have to work.
#69
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #69
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 4,614

Jens Eklund is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Can you actually hear the reflection or just see it on the test graph? No doubt it is effecting things but then again you do have to work.
A very early reflection will not be “heard”, not like a reflection, due to the integration time of the brain (Haas/ precedence effect) but the effects of it can be heard; image shifts/smearing, comb filter artifacts etc. This is why we use the ETC to look for nasty spikes within the first 12-25 ms (deepening on the ISD-gap length, if any).
#70
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #70
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 16,195

Glenn Kuras is offline
#71
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #71
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 4,614

Jens Eklund is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
?
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#72
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #72
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Can you actually hear the reflection or just see it on the test graph? No doubt it is effecting things but then again you do have to work.
I have a couple of weeks to to some tweeking before we will start recording :-)

Since I am inexperienced regrading frequencies, reflections, measuring etc. I really don´t know what I am listening for/after.

My approach would be to follow all the advice I get until someone says that I now have a good listening position/control room. Things are coming up along the way in this thread and when I have fixed (at least tried to fix it :-) there pops up a new issue :-)

I know I have some limitations regarding the size of my room, but I guess I am on the way to improving it...

I will now fix the issue the desk is giving me and I will also slant panels to see I will get more "positiv liveness" :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi View Post
your highs seemed overdamped and the lows not enough... this is typical if you use as much broadband absorption than you did. not every absorber has to work in the whole frequency domain. your superchunks in the front for example....
DaVogi is also mentioning the low end not being damped enough. I don´t know what he means by this. I guess the solution would thicker/more bass traps then... (?). There is more or less noe more space to put more traps...

/Henning
#73
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #73
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Cork Ireland
Posts: 10,492

DanDan is offline
Hope

With respect to all, I appeal to posters to take account of the knowledge level of the OP, in all cases. This is often readable between the lines.
Or more simply put, if an OP was able to understand the spats and tiny differences of opinion, they would hardly be asking simple questions here.

Henning, it is totally normal for previously hidden issues to pop up as treatment progresses. Desk Reflections, Flutter Echo, or Slap echo, are all hidden amongst thousands of other reflections in an untreated room. As you add treatment they come out of hiding.

Let me be very assuring here.
Comb filtering due to a desk reflection is quite audible. Play pink noise and physically angle your desk while listening. You will hear the whoosh, like a Phaser pedal but not sweeping. It is well worth angling the desk or and moving speakers to lose this problem. EDIT The combing and it's disappearance when the reflection is fixed are both easily visible on the FR graph. Again Desktop Reflection Revealed
However nicely worded I cannot see any purpose to stating that the cause is inaudible but the result is. This is exactly the inappropriate use of knowledge I referred to earlier.

Slats are nice, they look good and keep drunk drummers from disappearing into the fibre behind. They do not make a large or obvious change to the listening experience unless you have a very large surface area of them.

The biggest problems in small rooms normally start from the bottom up. So Bass Traps in corners is a sure thing goto always. Be aware there are corners everywhere, overhead, ceiling to wall corners etc.

If you do not have space available for LF treatment, the thin and but effective VPR is the way to go.

DD
#74
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #74
Gear addict
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 339

Icecube1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
A very early reflection will not be “heard”, not like a reflection, due to the integration time of the brain (Haas/ precedence effect) but the effects of it can be heard; image shifts/smearing, comb filter artifacts etc. This is why we use the ETC to look for nasty spikes within the first 12-25 ms (deepening on the ISD-gap length, if any).
+1

Very nicely worded Jens!
#75
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #75
Lives for gear
 
jim1961's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,040

jim1961 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
A very early reflection will not be “heard”, not like a reflection, due to the integration time of the brain (Haas/ precedence effect) but the effects of it can be heard; image shifts/smearing, comb filter artifacts etc. This is why we use the ETC to look for nasty spikes within the first 12-25 ms (deepening on the ISD-gap length, if any).
Yes, very nice post!

I would encourage the OP to focus more on early reflections (ETC) than FR at this point. While FR is important, reflection control and management is a much more overlooked and underestimated problem.
#76
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #76
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 16,195

Glenn Kuras is offline
It was sort of a given but thanks for commenting Jens


Sent from my HTC VLE_U
#77
22nd November 2012
Old 22nd November 2012
  #77
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,513

AwwDeOhh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
...
Slats are nice, they look good and keep drunk drummers from disappearing into the fibre behind. ...
ROFL
that should be a tag line or something.
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#78
23rd November 2012
Old 23rd November 2012
  #78
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Hi again.

I have now managed to improve the artifacts in the high end due to early reflections. I have moved and tilted the desk which caused the improvement.

Next up is slanting panels to get more liveness...

I can even now say that I have never have had such a good listening environment that I have now. Music played through the speakers are now more defined and clear than before!

How is the room looking now?

/Henning
Attached Thumbnails
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-1-24-right.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-1-24-left-.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-1-24-both.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-wf-left.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-wf-right.jpg  

Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-left.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-right.jpg  

Last edited by Mastergod; 23rd November 2012 at 10:38 PM.. Reason: Added ETC
#79
23rd November 2012
Old 23rd November 2012
  #79
Lives for gear
 
jim1961's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,040

jim1961 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastergod View Post
Hi again.

I have now managed to improve the artifacts in the high end due to early reflections. I have moved and tilted the desk which caused the improvement.

Next up is slanting panels to get more liveness...

I can even now say that I have never have had such a good listening environment that I have now. Music played through the speakers are now more defined and clear than before!

How is the room looking now?

/Henning
Im sorry, but your ETC's are still not setup right. (i.e. your direct response should begin at 0ms and 0db)
#80
23rd November 2012
Old 23rd November 2012
  #80
Lives for gear
 
Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 4,614

Jens Eklund is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1961 View Post
Im sorry, but your ETC's are still not setup right. (i.e. your direct response should begin at 0ms and 0db)
+0,5 ...

Yes; the peak of the ETC should be at 0 dB but the time of the direct depends on the type of measurement (dual channel or single channel) and how it was calibrated (if at all).

EDIT:
But regardless; glad to hear (and see, assuming the only thing "wrong " with the ETC is the dB offset) that you are making progress and that the "inaudible" early reflection turned out to be "audible" after all ...
#81
24th November 2012
Old 24th November 2012
  #81
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,309

localhost127 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1961 View Post
Im sorry, but your ETC's are still not setup right. (i.e. your direct response should begin at 0ms and 0db)
ideally with the use of the hardware loopback to account for hardware propagation delay, the signal generation should be at 0ms and the direct signal for whatever distance (time-arrival) it takes for the direct signal to propagate to the receiver (mic/listening position).

without this, then the accuracy of the total flight path of the indirect signals is lost.
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#82
24th November 2012
Old 24th November 2012
  #82
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Thank you for your answers. I guess the ETCs are right now? Is there any other comments you can give at his moment regarding other aspects that ETC?

/Henning
Attached Thumbnails
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-left-00.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-right-00.jpg  
#83
24th November 2012
Old 24th November 2012
  #83
Lives for gear
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,238

Nick Morris is offline
I think they mean the initial peak that shows the direct sound from the speaker should be at 0ms. It looks like 0ms on your graphs is your noise floor.

...Unless I have been doing it wrong
#84
24th November 2012
Old 24th November 2012
  #84
Gear Guru
 
DanDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Cork Ireland
Posts: 10,492

DanDan is offline
RTFM

If anyone would like the manual for FuzzMeasure I will gladly send it to you.
If you Create Minimum Phase Copy, it will shift the initial spike to 0mS.
For the vast majority of measurement purposes there is no advantage in using Loopback Correction.

Great results Henning, I am sure the sonic improvement is spectacular. If you are mixing or mastering, a carefully rolled off HF can be very helpful.
Many of us find flat in the room results in dulled mixes.

DD
Mastergod
Thread Starter
#85
25th November 2012
Old 25th November 2012
  #85
Gear nut
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 102

Thread Starter
Mastergod is offline
Hi again :-)

Thank you for response! And it´s godd to hear that my control room is beginning to take form!

I have now added a new ETC. Maybe I got it right this time :-)

Did this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
If you Create Minimum Phase Copy, it will shift the initial spike to 0mS.
DD

I am also working on un-deadening the room with slats etc. covering the panels that is not taking care of first reflections...

/Henning
Attached Thumbnails
Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-new.jpg   Here´s my graphs. Comments please :-)-etc-graph-extents.jpg  
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
joelpatterson / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
45
carrot / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
2
ajfarber / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
4
Meriphew / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
7
el cochino / Live Sound
0

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.