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Old 18th October 2012   #1
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New concrete block build

I'd like to know if anyone on here has built a small studio 30x50 out of concrete block, and what their experience has been like. I'm starting planning a build in my backyard from the ground up and am considering this might be the best option.

Can I build the whole structure inside walls and everything out of concrete block? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Can I build studs on the inside of the concrete block to attach drywall to, or will that have a negative effect on things?

Since this will be a ground up build I'd like to do it right the first time. I'm looking for a control room, live room, vocal booth, bath, and storage room to be in this space. I am a drummer so a live sounding tracking room would be best. Any comments would be very helpful. I've been trolling this site for several years on these subjects.

Tim Lee
Peoria, IL
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Old 18th October 2012   #2
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If you're building ground-up, definitely get Rod's book:
"Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros"
Lots of useful need-to-know stuff in there.
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Old 18th October 2012   #3
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yes you can use blockwork everywhere. in very general terms timber is cheaper. when you start to use multiple stud walls with multiple layers of plasterboard the tables can turn. but in some countries/regions blockwork is cheap as it's standard building practice.

the pros of using blockwork are that it performs very well with lower frequencies. it's performance decreases where impact noise or flanking concerns are in play.

adding a cavity followed by drywall and insulation decreases the low frequency attenuation of the blockwork wall marginally (depending on depth) but increases the attenuation in most other frequency bands. say above 100hz, so overall you get a higher stc rating. swings and round abouts.

double stud walls perform as good as blockwork with cavity/stud walls in most frequencies, but loose out with frequencies below about 100hz in genral terms.

it all dpeends on the resonant frequency of the wall which varies depending on mass, cavity depth etc.

so it depends to some degree on cost, noise sources, structural requirments, attenuation level required etc as to which is the best way to go.

single leaf blockwork walls also perform poorly with regards to thermal control of buildings.

internally, in general terms, rooms built from blockwork require more lower frequency treatment as the lower frequencies get trapped in the space because of the high level of mass. with lightweight walls the lower frequencies pass through the wall. but again, it depends on which frequencies and the total mass of the wall.

full blockwork construction will also alter rt60 figures and tend to suffer from more pronounced flutter echos. acoustic treatment and/or angled walls are the solution there.

your costs will also vary based on your site and access to the building pad.

if i can make a susgestion, on how to start the process

*put off trying to decide what the building is made from for now*
also avoid sketchup.

go to your local art supply shop, and buy a roll of yellow trace, a scale ruler, a .6mm black pen and a .2mm black pen.

think about how you want the spaces to relate to each other and where on the site you best see them being placed.
then, using single lines draw up a layout including surrounding buildings, fences, landscape, site conditions north point etc. then place another piece of yellow trace over your layout and redesign it trying out different options.

once you've tried out multiple options based on your brief,
redraw it on yellow trace and allow 300mm thick walls throughout and work in ideal room ratios.

once that's done. write down on the drawing what level of isolation each wall needs. also include the ceiling/roof.

from there you can look up which wall makeups achieve the attenuaton figures you are chasing and get copies from the usual data/test reports the acoustic engineers in here refer to.

take that to a builder and have him cost it based on your desired wall/floor/ceiling details gotten from the acoustic test reports.

take the cost the builder says and add on 20-25% contingency.

then take that figure and double it for a pro level fitout of acoustic treatments, wiring etc. if you are going to do those things yourself then you need to work out the quantites and apply costs to those. excel is excellent for this.

if the total cost is above what you can afford then go back and redesign the building.

this doesn't take into account code compliance etc.

now download sketchup.
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Old 18th October 2012   #4
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also avoid sketchup.
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now download sketchup.
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Old 18th October 2012   #5
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Originally Posted by timothyclee View Post


Can I build the whole structure inside walls and everything out of concrete block? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Can I build studs on the inside of the concrete block to attach drywall to, or will that have a negative effect on things?

Peoria, IL
Based on your location, I'm guessing you have building inspectors. In which case, no you probably cannot build from just block, because the building codes will require a certain amount of insulation, and that amount probably cannot be met by a block wall alone. You will either need to wrap the outside of the wall with insulation and put up siding, or you will need to frame the interior and put insulation there.

The negative effect of framing the interior is you loose floor. The positive effect is that it gives you a place to run the wires out of view.
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Old 18th October 2012   #6
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tough crowd tonight.

ok, in simpler terms.

avoid sketchup up until the point where you have your floor plans worked out.
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Old 20th October 2012   #7
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Yes Sketchup seems to be a beast for me...I've tried sveral times to give it a go, and I always go back to pen and paper. What are the going rates for studio designers these days. I'm thinking I'd save a ton of time and money if I just worked with a studio designer and gave them my needs list.

Tim
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Old 20th October 2012   #8
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Based on your location, I'm guessing you have building inspectors. In which case, no you probably cannot build from just block, because the building codes will require a certain amount of insulation, and that amount probably cannot be met by a block wall alone. You will either need to wrap the outside of the wall with insulation and put up siding, or you will need to frame the interior and put insulation there.
Where in the world do you come up with these things?

You sound as if you might have something to do with construction - but haven't quite figured it out yet.

I live in the northeast - cold winters - hot summers - we build masonry buildings all over the place up here and easily meet the thermal envelopes required by code.

The requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code have to do with the entire building envelope.

Providing insulated masonry units goes a long way (picture vermiculite in the cores) - especially seeing as he's talking a studio - which would suggest no windows (which are always building weak points when it comes to thermal loss/gain)

The energy codes allow the use of prescriptive design or building analysis - and there are even values in the wall tables to apply for the use of masonry construction (for both insulated and non-insulated masonry structures) should he decide to go the prescriptive route seeing as it's an easier approach for someone not knowledgeable about these things.

If he decided to go the route of multiple masonry walls he would easily meet the requirements under the code with insulated masonry on the inside - a reasonable air space (which he will need anyway for isolation) and a structurally sound masonry exterior with a dry sand fill in the all of the cores that don't require grout and rebar..

That especially seeing as the only reason to bother going that route is to develop an interior structure that is totally independent of the exterior - in which case the ceiling/roof assembly should be super insulated (as well as physically isolated) to be effective (my designs typically specify R-70 as a minimum in the ceiling)

Rod
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Old 20th October 2012   #9
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Originally Posted by timothyclee View Post
Yes Sketchup seems to be a beast for me...I've tried sveral times to give it a go, and I always go back to pen and paper. What are the going rates for studio designers these days. I'm thinking I'd save a ton of time and money if I just worked with a studio designer and gave them my needs list.

Tim
i would hire an architect type person who has some flare, understands design relationships, proportions, light and amenity and then bring the "studio designer" on as a consultant.
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Old 20th October 2012   #10
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A building that size with all necessary studio bits will be a significant investment so get a designer and architect and do it right.
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Old 20th October 2012   #11
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i would hire an architect type person who has some flare, understands design relationships, proportions, light and amenity and then bring the "studio designer" on as a consultant.
I would do just the opposite -
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Old 20th October 2012   #12
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I would do just the opposite -
that why i suggested a designer and architect instead of verse vice-a
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Old 20th October 2012   #13
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And there are even some studio designers who are capable of doing both......
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Old 20th October 2012   #14
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yes, but they play different roles
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Old 21st October 2012   #15
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yes and the best outcome occur when a team of "specialists" work together.

and that most definitely includes the builder.

the architects are the specialist in design and contract management.
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Old 21st October 2012   #16
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yes and the best outcome occur when a team of "specialists" work together.

and that most definitely includes the builder.

the architects are the specialist in design and contract management.
Some of us are "specialists" in multiple fields.........
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Old 21st October 2012   #17
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Some of us are "specialists" in multiple fields.........
+1.

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Old 21st October 2012   #18
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being specialists in technical, engineering and project managment fields does not make one a specialist in architecture/building design.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #19
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To the OP--what are your goals/reasons for using concrete block?

A couple of new McDonalds were built here recently using what is locally called split face concrete block. The inside is a typical flat face and the exterior face is a rough, irregular face. It's certainly durable and low maintenance material.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #20
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being specialists in technical, engineering and project managment fields does not make one a specialist in architecture/building design.
Ummm........ you are correct that this in and of itself does not - however that is not the same as saying that one isn't - they are not mutually exclusive in and of themselves...

For example - I happen to provide (among other things) Architectural services ...... tis one of my specialties.

I've provided architectural design/services on a number of recording studios worldwide, as well as a number of post production facilities.......... as have a hell of a lot of other studio designers that visit this site.

As is the case with a lot of the studio designers here - a number of those facilities were ground up construction in which I provided not only the acoustic/architectural design for the interior space - but also the structural and architectural design for the building housing it.

Perhaps you simply don't understand what architecture is all about, but we do.

In some cases (where my clients desire additional services from me as well) I even do mechanical systems & plumbing design.

There really are full service studio design firms which negate the need for a separate architectural contract.

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Old 22nd October 2012   #21
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the act of participating does not infer an understanding.

let's have a look at an "experts" take on things.

I'm astonished when I visit various studios, whether they are recording or for radio, at how they look. You ask people to be at their best and to dream about things in a rat hole. They're spending 12-plus hours in these small spaces that smell and have practically no light - it's ridiculous. I don't need a lot but I can't work like that. I wanted to make this place very human with big areas and small areas where people can find a place that makes them feel comfortable

phillipe starck.


i'd have to say i very much agree with mr starck.

whether i understand architecture or not i'll leave for others to decide for themselves.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #22
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the act of participating does not infer an understanding.
Whom is participating in what? Cryptic remarks don't help move the conversation along.

The act of successfully designing certainly "infers an understanding".

Is there some part of that which escapes you for some reason...... what part of the concept is so difficult for you to understand? If you let me know perhaps I can explain it to you.

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let's have a look at an "experts" take on things.

Quote:
I'm astonished when I visit various studios, whether they are recording or for radio, at how they look. You ask people to be at their best and to dream about things in a rat hole. They're spending 12-plus hours in these small spaces that smell and have practically no light - it's ridiculous. I don't need a lot but I can't work like that. I wanted to make this place very human with big areas and small areas where people can find a place that makes them feel comfortable

phillipe starck.
i'd have to say i very much agree with mr starck.
I would have to say that I very much agree with him as well - however that quote does not prove your point..... the description he used for those spaces would certainly not be a description of any spaces designed by myself or the other pros in the field that I know and respect.

I've seen some licensed architects that I wouldn't let design a doghouse - and others whose work is nothing short of breathtaking..... and the fact that this is true does not prove that all architects don't know what they're doing any more then having a license proves that they all DO know what they're doing.

In Architecture (as is true with everything people do) some do it quite well - some do it exceptionally - and some just don't have a clue and should be slinging hamburgers in a diner.

The fact that he has been in places that were poorly designed does not prove that all studio designers are incapable of properly designing a space unless they also happen to be a licensed architect.

The thought that this would be true is totally absurd on the face of it.

Sorry - but as much as you might try to prove the point that architects should (necessarily) be a part of this process - you are simply wrong.

Granted there are times where this will (even should be) the case - but the fact that this may be the case in some circumstances with some studio designers does not mean that it has to be the case in all circumstances with all studio designers.

For me (as with the others in the field who "do it all" for their clients when it comes to studio design & architectural services) it's pretty simple - as much as you might wish to present an opposing argument - my work speaks for itself, and it does so around the world.......

It's really just that simple.

Rod
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Old 22nd October 2012   #23
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i'm not being cryptic rod. i'm just trying not to demean anyone so i'm being very carefull with my words.

my opinion is that for you to say you or any of the other designers on this forum are experts in architecture is drawing a very long bow. the inference here, is you are putting yourself at the same level as people like designer starck or any of the world renowned architects out there

from my experience, only people who are submersed in achieving quality architectural outcomes would actually get the title "expert" or understand where to use the word. their is a level of respect for the greats of architecture that most current "experts" would not refer to themselves in that manner out of respect to those they draw their influence from.

there are, many many architects/designers in the US who are producing work of an exceptional nature and who are striving to improve the built environment.

how these people could possibly not contribute in a positive way to any building design done by you or any of the other designers on the forum is beyond me.


something that confues me.

if you agree with starck then why do you hold the belief that studios exclude windows?

i'd also like to see some studios of architectural integrity if you know of links. i'm always looking for reference images. unfortunately though nearly all of the studios i see designed are extremely internalised. with no natural light, consiting of dark looking spaces with proportions that to me feel odd.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #24
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The question is not could they possibly contribute in a positive way - the question is - are they required to contribute in order to design a studio that is both acoustically and architecturally successful?

Those are 2 totally different questions.

I have worked with some very large international architectural firms who have had senior associates - even principals of the company - who had me scratching my head wondering how the hell they ever got their credentials.

Would you say that all architects meet the level of Frank Lloyd Wright, and for those that don't would you then say that they are not actually architects?

I wish I had a dime for every time I looked at an design provided by a licensed architect that had details that were physically impossible to construct as drawn. When I run across these (which are much more common then one might think - especially when you start getting into highrise & very complex buildings) I don't then claim that the architect is not an architect - not if I can appreciate the rest of their talents in that regard.

I simply accept the fact that they are what they are, they have their strengths and their weaknesses.

Hell - I've even had cases where I have instructed architects to add certain features to buildings only to be told it can't physically be done - and have them stick to that story until I provided them the modifications to their design proving it could be done.

I do not claim to be a Frank Lloyd Wright - far from it - but then again - this is true of the vast majority of the architects in the world.

What I do claim - not only for myself but for all the other studio designers I know who really know how to get the job done (and I know a hell of a lot of them - most of whom have visited here on more then a few occasions) and that is that we are - within our own rights - not only acoustical engineers - but also architects in the field of studio design.

There are a hell of a lot of very beautiful, properly lit, comfortable recording studios in the world - that both engineers and musicians find not only great to work in from a pragmatic point of view - but also find an exciting experience to be in the space.

Avatar studios in New York would be one such place that comes to mind - and the person who designed it is not anyone that would fit your definition of an architect.

Manifold Studios is another.

Both were designed by friends of mine in the industry - neither of whom are licensed architects (neither was Frank Lloyd Wright by the way) but both of whom are definitely architects - regardless of what your personal opinion on the subject might be.



Look at either one of them and tell me that the people who designed those spaces aren't deserving of the use of the word.

Studio | Manifold Recording and the Miraverse

Studio | Manifold Recording and the Miraverse

Again - just for clarity - I am not saying that an architect could not possibly have anything beneficial to contribute (although I am saying that SOME licensed architects could not contribute a damned thing) - what I am saying is that this in and of itself it not necessarily required as there are a world full of people who are perfectly capable of getting the job done without the need for what you seem to be defining as an architect.

Rod
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Old 22nd October 2012   #25
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if you agree with starck then why do you hold the belief that studios exclude windows?
What makes you think that you understand my beliefs? Do you know me? Do you know something about me that I don't know myself?

Bunker Studios Brooklyn NY) has no windows in the "A" room (although it does have windows in the "B" control room) - but that is a matter of practicality.

It's located on the first floor of building flanked by corridors and other tenants - and with the exception of the control room for Studio "B" it was physically impossible to put windows anywhere else....

But - this has nothing to do with Starck's statement - and I find it quite hard to believe that he would say that about this space if he were to visit it. The rooms are bright & spacious (with the exception of the iso-booth as far as spacious, although it is still bright and comfortable) and the people who work there and record there rave about the rooms.

Not all spaces without windows are rat holes in small spaces that smell and have practically no light .

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i'd also like to see some studios of architectural integrity if you know of links. i'm always looking for reference images. unfortunately though nearly all of the studios i see designed are extremely internalised. with no natural light, consiting of dark looking spaces with proportions that to me feel odd.
Well the proportions might seem odd to you because live rooms generally lean towards asymmetry if they are going to be stellar.... it certainly makes life easier from an acoustic point of view - although these rooms are certainly architecturally beautiful in their own right.

But dark/light is a function of proper lighting design in spaces with no windows. There is not reason whatsoever for any space to have a "sense of dark" simply because it has no windows.

I would also point out that some clients simply do not want windows in their studios - sometimes because of convention - other times because they do not want to go through the expense it takes to add windows while maintaining the same level of isolation.

Regardless, when my clients want windows they get windows - and when they don't they don't.

In either case they get great rooms to work in - acoustically and architecturally... windows do not make nor break the space.

Rod
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Old 22nd October 2012   #26
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well avatar doesn't do it for me on a personal level. that's probably harsh as i haven't experienced the space or studied the floor plans but aesthetically i find it a little internal feeling, no natural light, darkish etc. only going on photos.

but yes i understand it is one of the finest acoustic environments around.

manifold leaves me a little more torn. i get where it's coming from. the prairie/usonian influences it draws. it is beautiful internally and finely crafted.

again, acoustics are obviously superb.

being from a different country i find it vernacular externally which is why i'm torn. to me, and this is only my humble opinion, it lacks an architectural sympathy to the site. i struggle to get beyond why there seems to be no connection to the woods from the studio space and it feels a little heavy to me form wise.

but that's the point isn't it. that's not a studio designers focus. a studio designers focus is the acoustics. so it ticks all of the boxes. that's not what an architect/designers focus is. and that's my point repeated. you think manifold is great, imagine how great it would be if both wes and frank loyd wright worked on it together.

take pachyderm studios an example of a studio with a direct connect with the outside world.

for your clarification also, i am by no means suggesting that someone needs to be an architect to understand design. i've been pretty clear about that by referring to people as designers on the whole.

yes i am aware that wright was a draftsman.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #27
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Well the proportions might seem odd to you because live rooms generally lean towards asymmetry if they are going to be stellar....

I would also point out that some clients simply do not want windows in their studios - sometimes because of convention -

windows do not make nor break the space.

Rod
every building i've designed or been part of the design team on was asymetric.

i guess some clients need educating.

windows do make or break the space in my world in nearly all cases. that's been my training. it's not the only thing that will make or break a space (proportions do also) but it's pretty high up on the list as that is the connection with the outside world. whether that connection is obvious or via the roof or up high as on manifold it is still needed. i do understand the issues of buildign in basements or in building where no natural light is available but if you look very closely at east west studios will will see that starck and co obviously spent a lot of energy in resolving that issue by the way the spaces are lit.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #28
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LOL - ok - so that is your world - however your world is not the only world - it is only your world..........

Natural light is a great thing when it works - however it doesn't always work.......

For example - in Avatar Studios - 4 story building - studio "A" is on the 2nd floor - roughly 24" concrete slabs for the floors - and Tony was not about to invest the cash to light from above...

So that left him with a quandary...... Should he take front of house - the offices, lounge - reception areas - put those in the back and the studio up front so he could have windows in the studio - with none in those areas - plus track all of the equipment through (those areas) that was was going to be coming up the freight elevator that's located at the back of the building - or should he locate the studio so that it worked with the elevator - and have the windows for the front of house?

His choice was obvious - and there have been literally hundreds of gold and platinum recordings ( he recorded and produced) in the "A" room with whole slew of world famous artists - none of whom had a single concern with the fact that there were no windows..... all of whom absolutely loved the rooms - both from the point of view of their acoustic values as well as the architectural "feel"....... but what the hell do they know about what they should or shouldn't like?

Perhaps you could set up a work shop and give them lessons......

Rod
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Old 22nd October 2012   #29
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ipod listener to friend: Man...I gotta hand it to those architects that produced this music.
friend: Architects?...ummmh...wtf?

ipod listener: Well...it looks...I mean..it SOUNDS like it..wait...I mean..the music looks soooooo....wait wait..What I mean is...gee...the studio must be beautiful cause this music is soooooooo beautiful...

friend: studio? What the **** does that have to do with music? I mean they all perform the same function, right. That same piece of music might have been recorded anywhere, right?

ipod listener: well..no..ummm...geee, see...ya can't have good music without an architect making sure it looks...er....sounds good,.....right?

friend: geeme those ipods..I wanna see...er hear wtf you're talking about..

hey...I can't see anything?..wait...I mean..I can't hear if an architect had any influence on this at all?

ipod listener: Oh you don't know what you're talking about. Of course an architect had influence on the music...after all..he has credentials....

friend:wait...wait..you don't seem to understand something here..architects don't have ANYTHING to do with music? They design buildings..not music?


ipod listener: Well, what makes you think they don't? I mean..the musicians MUST get something out of it...like..better...umm ..I mean..wouldn't they play better in a pretty building??

friend: What?? Your listening to John Lee Hooker!!!
....sheeeesuh****ingcrist....unbelievebable...don't you know that was recorded in a ****ing barn???????????

ipod listener: oh. Dumb me.










ps. I dont think John Lee needed a "meditation gazebo
connected to the forest via a beautiful tile path"...either. ya know..some of this "studio" stuff is getting absurd.
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Old 22nd October 2012   #30
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note to self...file this thread under

"...the plum bob of incredulous"

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