Black Stain - suggestions?

[Rod Gervais]

Tia,

What species of wood are you using this on?

Exactly how are you applying the stain?

Rod

[JustMastering]

Hi, I've used Minwax before, and have found that it takes multiple coats to get it to the right color. That's probably by design since different woods take stain differently. I did some tables a few years ago, and to get them super dark, I applied 8 layers. It took a long time, but it was well worth the effort.

If your cabinets are made of really hard, low-grain wood (eg maple), it's good to brush on tap water within 24 hours before applying the first coat. That just opens the pores a bit to help it take the stain a bit better.

Best of luck!

Rob

[JustMastering]

FYI Minwax's Polyshades line is really good, I've used it before, too.

Not sure if you're using that already, or not, but what's nice about it is it's a urathane mixed with stain, so you get the color, plus the protection and finish that comes with a urathane (their satin finish looks great). Also, you might find this line a little easier to work with than a pure stain. It will still take multiple coats but it will save you time in that you won't need to consider a urathane top coat later.

Cheers!
Rob

[Rod Gervais]

Rob,

I've never heard of opening the pores like that with an oil based stain (works great with water based products)........

Is it oil based products you did this with? If yes I'll have to give it a try.

Rod

[bytehoven]

Hey guys...

One piece is pine and the other is oak veneer. The oak actually turned out a little better after the 1st try.

The method is using a sock to apply and wipe the stain. I will try a 2nd coat today.

I saw the polyshades option, but was worried about losing the look of the grain.

What's funny, I stained another piece for the family earlier this summer and it turned out a pretty decent black. Not sure what wood type that was

[JustMastering]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Rob,

I've never heard of opening the pores like that with an oil based stain (works great with water based products)........

Is it oil based products you did this with? If yes I'll have to give it a try.

Rod

Hey Rod, good question, I can't recall if it was wood vs water based. Probably water based at the time. Might still be worth trying for oil based stains too though (imagine it would make less of a difference with them, though).

Cheers
Rob

[JustMastering]

Originally Posted by bytehoven

Hey guys...

One piece is pine and the other is oak veneer. The oak actually turned out a little better after the 1st try.

...

I saw the polyshades option, but was worried about losing the look of the grain.

That's interesting about the pine, being a soft wood, I'd have expected it to take the stain more than the oak (apart from the wider grain sections of the oak).

With Polyshades you will still see the grain detail, even with multiple coats, as long as the coats are thin (brushed or sprayed on). I did some pine with it, and even the subtle pine grain can be seen after several coats.

Another option to consider is a few layers of the wipe on stain, and a few top coats of the polyshades. Then you have the best of both worlds.

Cheers
Rob

[Rod Gervais]

Pine - although a softwood - is a very closed pore species - oak has much more open pores - so the result is not all that surprising.......

I would suggest that multiple coats should get the job done - although I would point out that the chances of you getting 2 different species of wood to look anywhere near to the same in either color or texture is going to be a challenge.

If I were attempting this I would probably get the oak where I wanted it (make sure you have at least 4 to 6 hours between coats as recommended by the manufacturer) and then try to get the pine as close as you can - which will take a lot more coats than the oak veneer.

I would also point out that a veneer in general will take less stain to reach point "A" then solid wood (even in the same species) - this because the stain is unable to penetrate as deeply into the body of a veneered panel then it is into a board with pores running completely through it (this due to the waterproof glue used to join the veneer panel)

I would be cautious about mixing different brands of stain as they have different chemical compositions - and no guarantees that there will not be problems down the road due to reactions between the two.

Rod

[pitchfork]

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good black stain?

1. Black aniline dye
2. India ink
3. Feibings leather dye
4. Black solvent based tint
5. Flat black spray paint with clear coat
6. Black felt tip

I have searched and read Sherwin Williams has a better black stain so I might give it a try.

True. Minwax sucks. Especially on Oak.

Bottom line is..if you want it to look BLACK..then use something that coats the surface. Otherwise you are fighting a loosing battle. Seeing "grain" and Black is an oxymoron. Especially on Oak. It is precisely the difference in the hard/soft areas of the grain. The hard areas will NOT absorb stain..no matter how many coats. Aniline dyes do better, but are difficult to get even. Personally..if I want a wood to look "Black"..i simply paint them(even with spray cans but not latex). On Oak, the open pores still show, which gives the "grain effect". Even for finishes like "Silver Fox"..black paint is used.

Another "pro" method is "toners". But requires a spray rig as you have to add a "translucent tint" to clear lacquer. But again...translucent black is an oxymoron.


ps..staining Pine sucks too. as Rod points out...

although I would point out that the chances of you getting 2 different species of wood to look anywhere near to the same in either color or texture is going to be a challenge.

+1

[bytehoven]

I really appreciate the tips.

After the 2nd coat of Minwax Ebony, things are looking better. 3 coats on the oak veneer cabinet might do the trick. The pine shelf unit is also looking much better after a 2nd coat so maybe a 3rd coat will also be fine.

The two pieces will not be near each other so I don't need to get them exactly the same. Just need them to look black and not dark brown.

I understand regarding grain. I think we are talking about different things. I'm saying seeing the grain as in a texture when the light catches the surface just right.

Thanks again. I think if I had waited until applying the 2nd coat, I probably would not have posted.

[AwwDeOhh]

Don't forget also, that the time between application and wiping effects the outcome as well. If you wipe it too quickly, it will not have time to penetrate as much. Conversely, if you wait too long, you may get uneven tone.

[bytehoven]

Great point... I am letting the stain remain on just about to the point where it is getting tacky, or roughly 15 minutes.

Now I'll wait a good 8 hours or until later tonight to apply a 3rd coat.

[OpusOfTrolls]

If you want a good black without any chemicals, use laminate. It's the most expensive option, but for constant contact it holds up well.

[antony]

Where are you? If your in London there's a company called Mylands, I did my traps and floor with its really good quality stuff.


Antony

[gouge]

agree with the others that it will be very hard to get the same shade between the 2 different wood types.

usually when doing pine the stain manufacturer will recomend a sealer coat prior to applying the japan black colour. and usually if you want very dark they will recommend not using the sealer coat.

the only way to know is to do samples on site. multiple coats from my experience is what usually happens. also apllying coats in the direction of the grain seems the norm.

some manufacturers detail the number and method of coats along with pre stain sealers and final coat polish. the final coats could be a combination of french polish followed by a clear top coat.

each manufacturer seems to be different however they usually provide data sheets explaining the methods.

[Syncamorea]

My favorite black finish on oak is to put it in an airtight chamber and leak ammonia into it for a few weeks. Then air it out thoroughly. Then air it out some more. Next, thickness plane it slightly. The open grain portions will be dark the closed grain looks more like normal oak. Varnish and admire your zebra oak.

[bytehoven]

Just finished 3rd coat and wipe and I'm happy with the result on both cabinets.

Thanks again for all of the tips/ideas.