Forum Challenge: A Movable Wall

[OpusOfTrolls]

You should build it with 2x4s and fill the frame with mineral wool. Done.

[gouge]

when you say movable,

in what directions do you need it to be movable.
with the garage floor, is it a suspended timber floor or is it timber mock flooing over concrete.

build a wall as opus has suggested and mount it on a wheeled base.

[hewhorocks]

Thanks for the replies....

The wall would, in theory, not move left / right but the length of the room. I actually don't want to move the wall regularly, but code says I can't build a proper wall so a movable wall might suffice.

I like the wheels idea. Was also thinking of hanging a wall? Like on eye hooks and some brackets on the floor and ceiling to hold it steady.

A friend also suggested tracks like Stanley barn door hardware and build a floating wall that could be pushed the length of the room.

Still trying to figure it out. Love to hear some more ideas.... Maybe someone else has done something similar.

[AwwDeOhh]

What about something like this:

Sonicwal/88

It's an "accordion" folding wall. States to have an STC of 44.

[gullfo]

what building code were you referring to regarding a simple partition wall?

[Arqen]

For cross sections of good acoustic control walls (with built in absorption), check out Figure 13 and 15 of my recording studio design report (part 2).

(There are 2 papers, Part 1 and Part 2. The figures I speak of are in Part 2)

Hope this helps!

Tim

[hewhorocks]

Originally Posted by gullfo

what building code were you referring to regarding a simple partition wall?

The specific building code in the way has to do with a required parking space not in the setback.... translates to NO GO on a structural wall in the garage. But as long as the wall is movable, apparently I'm ok.

[hewhorocks]

Originally Posted by Arqen

For cross sections of good acoustic control walls (with built in absorption), check out Figure 13 and 15 of my recording studio design report (part 2).

(There are 2 papers, Part 1 and Part 2. The figures I speak of are in Part 2)

Hope this helps!

Tim

Thanks Tim, interesting stuff. Hempcrete walls...?

[hewhorocks]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

What about something like this:

Sonicwal/88

It's an "accordion" folding wall. States to have an STC of 44.

This is cool thanks. It's a possibility for me, but I would prefer to be able to have acoustic treatment on the wall, Id have to get around that accordion design somehow

[2manyrocks]

Maybe forget the traditional notions of a wall constructed with wood and think about a huge acoustical curtain filled with cotton batting sewn inside some kind of heavy duty upholestry fabric hung from the ceiling?

....in a more lucid moment, I think light guage steel studs stuffed with the appropriate choice of insulation, minwool, cotton batting would be the No. 1 choice if the codes folks will allow it. Second choice after that would be to build large enough panels to fit the space, but obviously moveable so the codes folks will go away. If you were to move elsewhere, those panels could be still be very useful in another space so it's not like you would be losing your investment of time and money.

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by hewhorocks

This is cool thanks. It's a possibility for me, but I would prefer to be able to have acoustic treatment on the wall, Id have to get around that accordion design somehow

Moveable stands for bass traps and/or diffusors.

[Syncamorea]

It is possible to build a room within a room and not infringe on the "structural wall" definition. You can make modular components from studs, insulation, drywall and sheathing that can be assembled and sealed adequately to function as a studio. But that won't be portable as an assembled unit.

[gullfo]

it sounds like you're saying the building code requires the garage to still be usable as parking space given the occupancy of the building so to achieve that the wall needs to be immediately moveable?

in my case, we have enough exterior parking on the driveway so that our garage is not required but in other homes in the neighborhood they must maintain a garage because they only have small driveways and the town ordinances are basically that there be enough parking for 1 car per bedroom so you need a minimal amount of driveway ft2 to accommodate.

if this is the case i like the moveable partition walls with the STC 50 rating.

[2manyrocks]

The OP said the floor is hardwood. So what's going on here? A hardwood floor in a garage for parking a car?

[OpusOfTrolls]

Car floats on melamine sponges.

[gouge]

Originally Posted by 2manyrocks

The OP said the floor is hardwood. So what's going on here? A hardwood floor in a garage for parking a car?

no problems there.

done it a lot.

[Arqen]

Originally Posted by hewhorocks

Thanks Tim, interesting stuff. Hempcrete walls...?

Not the most obvious material for movable walls, but I think hempcrete is a great for fixed walls.

I expect the easiest movable wall would be based on a timber frame, and insulation considerations can be worked into the frame.

My Dad and I build a garage years back, in which one exterior wall was created as 2 huge doors on hinges (so you could literally "open up the wall" if you needed to build something that did not fit into the garage.... like a sailboat or huge bitchbark canoe (my dad's motivation)... or a warship or viking longboat (my motivation) ).

If you have a narrow room and if you can renovate the inside, it's possible you could create such a system with door-like-walls that swing on hinges. Given the weight of the wall, you'd need additional contact points besides the hinges (e.g. the bottom of the wall could have pads on it so that it slides on the floor while you open / close it)...

Probably overkill and not the most practical idea for your needs... but an idea none the less!

[OpusOfTrolls]

Originally Posted by Arqen

If you have a narrow room and if you can renovate the inside, it's possible you could create such a system with door-like-walls that swing on hinges. Given the weight of the wall, you'd need additional contact points besides the hinges (e.g. the bottom of the wall could have pads on it so that it slides on the floor while you open / close it)...

Probably overkill and not the most practical idea for your needs... but an idea none the less!

All that a heavy door needs is casters, the type that don't swing. They will bear almost half the load if the hinges are set well. But then there are practical problems like an open door if it isn't finished in a day, and manpower.

[hewhorocks]

Originally Posted by 2manyrocks

The OP said the floor is hardwood. So what's going on here? A hardwood floor in a garage for parking a car?

Yes I already put the floor in... hoping it should not be a problem...its just a floor and the car could park on it... theoretically

[hewhorocks]

Originally Posted by gullfo

if this is the case i like the moveable partition walls with the STC 50 rating.

STC 50... i will google this term.

[hewhorocks]

A friend suggested an inflatable wall....

[ironman187]

I would say you should put female threaded anchors in the concrete floor, and use 1/2" lag bolts to hold the frame of the wall down, use the same concept at the top and the sides, leave access panels so you can get in there with an impact wrench, voila, you could in theory take the wall out in 15 min or less! That to me, would fit the bill as a movable wall (IE, non permanent structure).

[pitchfork]

Direct from the "for what it's worth" database.

I've already done this. But it requires precision construction, as you need to build 4 doors, that are actually built like a partition wall. These are hung via very heavy duty piano hinges in a "bi fold" scenario. The weight is actually carried by 2 Ball Casters per door. Also requires precise field dimensions to layout the spacing for the hinge gaps, etc. And there a few different ways you can do this.

However, not knowing exact dimensions of your space, nor the direction of the wall, here is some "general" ideas.

The doors are actually framed using doubled 3/4" plywood, although I show them as standard 2x4 construction. The reason is two fold..precision as 2x4 are not the best material to use, as the edges are crappy, and nominal lumber moisture content is not good for this type project. The frames are filled with R-19 batt insulation, and sheathed with 3/4" MDF, for mass.

Now, depending on how well you want these to perform as an ISO wall, there are lot's of details for seals etc. However, I am only showing the basics here.

1st scenario is simply 4'x8' doors(sheet size or a little less depending on the actual dimension across the opening and how good you are at fabrication) with an end jamb filler which could simply be a 2x4, and a top jamb whatever is required, since you didn't give a height.

Second scenario is doors built to standard 80" height x whatever width works for you for 4 doors, plus hingegaps plus end fillers. What I am showing you here is just general ideas, although mine were built as the second scenario. 48" wide x 80" high. These are very heavy for iso, and do require paying attention to dimensional precision to make it all come out correctly. In fact, the level of isolation required, depends on the detailing of the gaps and how well you need these to perform. What I show here is NOT complete, as there are other "offsets" I have not shown. The hinges are not cheap, but ...it's your problem...I'm simply trying to show you how "I" did it. Also, you could leave off the panel facing towards your space, and cover that side with fabric..ala..John Sayers Inside out wall...ie...a wall of absorption.

Furthermore, without knowing which wall this is in relationship to your monitoring position, there may be other considerations ...ie..monitors/console in front of doors etc.. In fact, you really need to show us your intent here, as far as room layout is concerned.

Now, these are NOT complete plans by any means. There are details I didn't bother to take the time to show. If you ARE interested, get back to me with some real dimensions, and I'll try to help you detail this for construction. Otherwise, a grain of salt might do.

[2manyrocks]

pitchfork--based on your own experience, how critical is it for the floor itself to be level and the surrounding walls plumb and square for something like what you built to be workable?

[pitchfork]

pitchfork--based on your own experience, how critical is it for the floor itself to be level and the surrounding walls plumb and square for something like what you built to be workable?

BINGO!!! At least someone is paying attention.

Ok, here is the real answer to your question. In the REAL world, this is simple stuff. It's a common denominator for the people who deal with this kind of real world problems of MILLWORK installation DAILY.

The key is ...nothing is square...nothing is plumb, nothing is rotationally indexted. Except what you build. Hence...the FILLERS. All else is built to be PLUMB, SQUARE, and ROTATIONALLY designed so it is a COMPLETE entity unto itself. This is a common problem. You build correctly..and then fill to the boundary's..giving yourself what is known as SCRIBES. If you want to know HOW, just ask. And btw...this forum is not known for this type pro level installation and fabrication techniques and tricks of the MILLWORK trade. Because..everything you see on this forum..is MILLWORK. Period. If you don't believe me...well..do a little research on Architectural millwork...you might get a clue to what I am showing here. Bottom line though...you can do it if you know what it is you are trying to achieve. But it takes tools, insight, space, materials...and a true plan. If you are interested...just ask and I will try to illustrate the real deal. But like I said...grain of salt if you are just fooling around.

[gouge]

i'm with you pitchfork,

this is exactly the type of outcome that's needed in a lot of project studios. i suggested it in the help me design a...... studio thread for the op as it allows him to manipulate his spaces depending on needs. operable walls have been used in building for many many years now.

your drawings are great they explain it all very clearly. nice work.

the secret is the drop bolts. :-)

[pitchfork]

i'm with you pitchfork,

I wish you were with me when I installed mine.


In regards to those jpgs..I need to clarify some things here. First off..to actually build this is by no means easy. And there are limitations to its success. Especially the field conditions....ie...level floor etc. So..you may want to really look hard at this solution.
In reality, I had the luxury of a Architectural Mill at my disposal by virtue of my employment there as a CAD detailer and 15 years as a Union journeyman millworker. In that light, I need to stress the nature of building something like this is beyond most home craftsmanship. Not that it can't be done..but it is highly unlikely that various intuitional aspects of a project like this will be intuitive to home builders.
First off, the mere weight of a full sized panel of MDF is a lesson in hindsight. Especially after a full door is assembled as it weighs in over 200lbs. Frankly, even having a home shop big enough to maneuver one sheet is a luxury most Home recording enthusiasts won't have at their disposal, let alone space to layout all four doors as a complete assembly. Not to mention the skillsets it takes to SQUARE a panel. You see, most woodworking novices assume a panel is square right from the factory.
Well, uummmm...no. They are not. Close..but not close enough for something of this nature, as the whole idea requires absolute squareness. And this is where the "pro" gets separated from "craftsman"

You see, in reality..the mill I worked for had a very large computerized tool called a "Shear"..which in essence is a very large table saw, whereby the operator can load up to 4 full sized sheets of material, and "square" the panels 4 at a time. This is precisely what is required to make this work, as the panels are indexed per one corner, two sheets per door. Even with a tolerance of .002...flip one panel..and they will NOT align..front to back. And that is the problem with trying to do this at home. There ARE ways to do it, using 2 of the frames, if they are perfectly square, as the frame surface can be used like a template to route 2 panels laid up adjacent to each other, as if they were one giant panel. Not a fun experience if your shop space is small. And that's just for starters.
Then there is the hinges. My god. These are not your run of the mill piano hinges. Again. I had the luxury of commercial supply chains where I could purchase these..and believe me..they are not cheap. You see..these are as heavy duty as a standard Butt hinge..only continuous. Try to find those at Home Depot.
And, one detail I didn't show was a machined rabbet to align these perfectly, as if you get a hinge..even slightly out of parallel with the door edge..will not function correctly.
Next was the Ball Casters. In hindsight..yeah, they worked, but even my experience was no match for physics. Hahahaha... In a perfect world, maybe. In reality, an unlevel floor made for after the fact compromises. In fact, I'm kinda sorry I inferred this idea to begin with. The real solution is probably more complex than is worth going into here. So..I'm gonna pass on it for now as it involves very esoteric and expensive hardware. So..oh well, my bad. Plus..I never said I was an engineer.

And then there are the seals. I opted for an automotive door seal. Not cheap either by the time you seal every door.

And then..the MDF itself. For this project..expect aprox $70 per door..plus the jamb/header...which is a whole nuther animal besides the doors. Did I mention installation skills?

Bottom line. Mine worked. But I only had to open them every so often. If they had to open and close very many times a day...I would have opted for a different set of design parameters. This is called..live and learn. Also, it COULD work at a different level of expectations though. Sometimes, my expectations exceed my capacity to meet them. That's why hindsight is 20/20. Would I do it again? umm...no. At least ..not at home.

In conclusion, I would sincerely suggest a robust skepticism of ones ability to fabricate this solution at home. I posted this as a solution I personally had built one time 10 years ago. But it's certainly not for the faint of heart.

Sorry if I raised the possibility of a solution without explaining the difficulty of achieving it in the first post. At least I'm honest.
fitZ

ps. As a 20 yr home recording enthusiast who constantly looked for ways to achieve a studio..well, some times things are just not meant to be..regardless of your will. Good luck.

[gouge]

if i were about to embark on this journey i would get the frames made up at a metal shop and go from there. i'd also look seriously at whether 4 leafs were required in lieu of 2 bigger leafs.

wheel wise i'd try an externally fixed "L" bracket with a neumatic wheel on it.
for seals, raven as they have a very good range. i can't see why on the surface rebated stiles couldn't be designed into the system.

i guess when all else fails the removable mullions could be a good solution.

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

...
In conclusion, I would sincerely suggest a robust skepticism of ones ability to fabricate this solution at home. I posted this as a solution I personally had built one time 10 years ago. But it's certainly not for the faint of heart.
...

Why do you think i suggested the 'accordion door'?
They'll come and install/fit it to your space!