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ex. wine cellar / studio condition / humidity
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Old 25th September 2012   #1
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ex. wine cellar / studio condition / humidity

Hi everybody,

Hope somebody will have some words of wisdom and clarify this matter for me.

I am building a studio in a ex wine cellar basement on the mediterranean coast. The house is over 100yr old and walls are made of 55cm stones. On the north side i am 180cm bellow the ground and on the south i am some 60 cm bellow ground level.
So far i made hydro isolation, acoustic isolation (partly walls and complete ceiling). Total space is 50m2 and it is divided in control room (21 m2) and the studio.
Control room is totally surrounded by an isolation shell made of layers of stone wool and gypsum while the studio part is left as it is with nice stone walls, gypsum ceiling and parqueted floor.
When i installed all doors, i realize that (because of totally hermetic conditions) humidity is much higher then i expected (i have had no knowledge about vents, humidity, relationship with aircon, temperature etc...).
Now, on a normal dry mediterranean weather, upon coming to studio (to be) i find around 55-60% Rel.Hum. and after 20 minutes with open doors (i have big double wing glass doors that seals perfectly) rel.hum. falls to 40 or even 35%.

When we have winds from the south and/or rainy days i find as high as 65 to 70 %.
Thats not really good for my piano and guitars as well as electronics that are going to be placed. Again, after opening the doors wide open, i see hygrometer falls to 60 or 55%.

I am getting in a few days multisplit inverter system with inner Mitsubishi MSZ GE25 and MSZ GE35 aircon units. One for CR, other for studio.
For ventilation, i have installed already intake and outtake canals that are waiting for the rest, or should i say, the heart of the vent system.

The guys from the local HVAC business offered me normal 2x ventilators to push air in and out, but as my concern raised high, i learned via www about Mitsubishi Lossnay systems that are actually recuperators (energy recovery systems) and can be totally integrated with Mitsubishi aircon units.
I plan both, aircon and Lossnay, to be installed with weekly timers, so system can run for a few hours every day even if i am not around.

Here are my questions:



1. It seems to me that my humidity problem is rather dependent on the outside weather and not exclusively as a product of humidity source within the studio (yes, north wall is 180 cm bellow the ground out of the 305 cm, i am aware of that). Hydro isolation is done properly and i have kind of floating floor above it (parquet on armed concrete estrich floated on the stone wool).



2. As it seems to me, problem is that humidity collects when nothing is open, because all doors are totally sound proofed. So, problem is there when i am not around, which means that humidity jumps up when i am not present and jumps down when i am in. Is this "jumping" better or worse from all time high humidity?

3. How much help will provide aircon system? Is drying mode really drying or it is kind of marketing bluff? It will dry to some degree, but will it help?
Provided that it comes with a weekly timer, so it will run independently of my presence.
What would be the best setting for drying? Temp. in studio is mainly around 25Cdeg during summer, almost a constant and around 15-20 Cdeg during the winter.

4. Anybody familiar with Lossnay system? Here is the link http://www.mitsubishielectric.com.au...AY_LGH_RX5.pdf

On the top of a page nr. 2 they talk about humidity.

As i understand, this unit can be a great saver of money on electricity bill later on and it should help with humidity as well... Was thinking about unit LGH 25RX5, it is for up to 250m3, and as my space is some 150m3 this should be good (i have intake and outtake only in CR but i'll keep doors btw CR and studio open when not there).


thx,

D2K
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Old 25th September 2012   #2
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You need good ventilation. And heat. Then the cellar will dry. There are machines wich extract moisture from the room. Those machines can be rented. And they can extract the moisture within a day. They are used on construction sites. When walls are freshly plastered alot of watervapor comes free. With current well insulated homes this could lead to all sorts of issues. So in such cases large heaters can be used. But that can allso lead to cracks.

A construction dryer is what I would use during a week or so.

And after that good ventilation and the installation of central heating and a humidity meter. That way you'll know exactly where you stand.
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Old 25th September 2012   #3
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Hi muziekschuur,

Thx for the reply.
As far as i made my research, i think construction dryer wont help me a lot like a final solution.
I think that my main problem is a northern part of a cellar which is 180cm bellow the ground and no fresh air intake at the moment. So, if i would dry the cellar, it may be that after some time situation will be the same. Maybe. And then it wont represent a definite solution.

However, it is a great idea to do it once and see what happens! Will do that for sure.
Would be much more less concerned to see that Mitsubishi aircones+lossnay are doing the job.
I wonder if some forum member is using lossnay.

Cheers!

But drying with industrial dryer is a great tip, thx!
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Old 25th September 2012   #4
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The permanent solution is a properly designed HVAC system.....

The introduction of fresh air as a solution to humidity levels assumes that the outside air is dry.....

In climates with high levels of humidity outside - the simple introduction of fresh air into a space may well increase humidity levels rather than the reverse.

Picture warm moist climates - where the indoor temperature is cooler than outside - if I simply introduce outside air into a space - the indoor RH levels will be greater than the RH levels outside, this because as the air cools the levels rise....

It is not always as simple as it might seem at first glance........

Portable dehumidification units are great at times - but they are not necessarily a great long term solution.

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Old 25th September 2012   #5
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many thx Rod,

getting a picture, little by little...

cheers!
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Old 28th January 2013   #6
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Cellars and ground floors tend to provide the ideal conditions for mould to thrive. If the conditions are right, you will definitely get mould. Dehumidifiers will temporarily keep mould at bay and waste a lot of power. Mould likes porous, cold, humid places where air does not flow, e.g., the bottom part of a wall behind a wardrobe, and also around window frames which is usually the coldest part of any wall.

Mould either proliferates or declines. If the conditions do not favour mould growth, then it will decline, otherwise it'll grow forever until you FIX your house.

Thus, if you can avoid setting up your studio in a cellar or even a ground floor, you may be saving yourself a lot of trouble. I live on a third floor and have no mould problems, but I know some people on the ground floor do.

In any case, I still keep all my microphones in air-tight Lock&Lock boxes, my favourite being the Lock&Lock model HPL844 (Google that) which can accommodate one microphone. It comes with a plastic grill at the bottom under with I put a handful of silica sachets. This keeps my microphones at about 35% relative humidity all the time except when in use.
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Old 28th January 2013   #7
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Aquapol Mauerentfeuchtung | Fachgerechte Entfeuchtung von Mauern
These guys have the equipment to dry buildings of all kinds. It seems exotic, but Mr. Wilhelm Mohorn has the seal of approval of some goverment agencies and decades of successful work. Works better than any other system available.
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Old 28th January 2013   #8
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hi all,

i am very happy to announce that i solved (it seems so, ) my problem.
here is the system installed:

Ventilation:

1x intake (Ruck RS125L, ruck Home - Ventilatoren, Lüftungsgeräte, Dachventilatoren, Wärmerückgewinnung )
1x outtake (no ventilator for now)
2x ventilation sound absorber on intake)
1x ventilation sound absorber on outtake)
1x air filtering on intake
standard intake and outtake indoors and outdoors grills
1x Ruck TEE 5/step transformer ventilation regulator

Air con:

2 x Mitsubishi Electric Kirigamine Zen MSZ-EF25VES indoor
1 x Mitsubishi MXZ-2C40VA outdoor unit

Dehimidification:

2 x Wall-hung dehumidiers Dantherm CDF 10 (one control room, one studio).


At the moment i have installed only one Dantherm unit as i am digging a channel for condensation drain for the other, but i can happily report that with only one unit i am having constant RH of 41% which is great compared to 65 - 70 i had before during the autumn and winter.
They are great looking wall hung units with permanent drain.

Also, i will be powering them on for the autumn and winter only, as there is no probable need for the summer and spring at the place where i live.

Also, when both units will be running, i can expect them to be a lot of time in bypass mode. In combination with air conditioning, there will be even smaller need of running time.

Nevertheless, i am so happy that it turned out like this as i will be with a great confidence bring a piano, guitars and the rest of instruments as well as technical equipment, hopefully in a few months... Will post photos... still lot of work...

Cheers,

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Old 28th January 2013   #9
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Congrats D2K,

Very happy to hear things are working out for you.....

Rod
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Old 29th January 2013   #10
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Rod,

thank you for all your advices... the control system u advised opened my eyes on this matter wider. it was good to make more research and then i stumble upon this Dantherm company from, u guess, Denmark... i think those wall units are real solver for anybody with this kind of problem. They are not plastic type-things u can see in home catalogues or similar. They are built like a tank, giving impression of a Rolls Royce or an Radial DI .

Highly recommended. I am really really so happy with it so far...

cheers,

D2K
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