Regarding Power

[Rod Gervais]

110V would certainly be within the electric companies requirements for a stable power supply - although brown outs (the dimming you refer to) are not uncommon occurrences in some areas of the country.

110V @ 1500 Watts = 13.64 amps (rounded) for single phase service........ so my best guess would be power company variances as opposed to power draw.

If all you are using is a single 15 amp circuit - I cannot see for the life of me why you would require a dedicated 220V power supply........

Perhaps better would be simply an uninterruptible power supply (UPS)

Tripp Lite makes some great models - but a bit pricy - however - you should probably look hard at this before you take the leap and make certain whatever route you take covers not only your present needs - but future ones as well....

A unit capable of handling your 1500 watts would actually need to be around 2500 VA

This unit would fit those needs........ and provide constant 120V power with electricity from the service provider ranging from 83-145V.

Rod

[Matt Hepworth]

Thank you very much. It is single phase. I was concerned that I may be close to hitting the 15amp threshold of typical systems and that the a 20amp 220V with a power distro might be the necessary solution. I know my Furman voltage regulator tops at 15amps. As I power up the system I hear its toroidial transformer kick in because the incoming voltage usually sits at 110 and sags as I have more draw, it seams.

You're recommending against a balanced power unit?

I'm going to look at the UPS's you recommend.

Thanks again!

[OpusOfTrolls]

Have you ever tripped the breaker on the circuit? And what are the causes of the droop, just having all the equipment on and in idle, or full blown cranked to 11?

[Matt Hepworth]

During some crummy weather the Furman tripped.

If I turn on just enough for mixing, all is well. When I power up the other gear for full sessions I see the incoming voltage meter on the Furman keep dropping as I flip the switches.

[OpusOfTrolls]

Well the typical solution is to use two circuits. I do this even though I don't require it. Every piece of gear related to audio is on one circuit, and the computer/monitor and other misc things on the other. If you experience a ground loop like this, you can usually get rid of it with a star ground and USB groundlift or 4-pin firewire cable. It's a complicated topic and I don't want to pretend I know the best way to do it.

[Yeah, right...]

If I was in your position, before I spent money on upgrading supply circuits I would definitely run a recording voltmeter for a few days and see what your electricity provider is giving you. If you're unsure how to do this, get an electrician in...

I have no experience in the US, but in countries where I do, voltage sag outside the legal limits is not uncommon.

Good luck, Mike

[Rod Gervais]

Are you using the P-1800 AR?

Rod

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth

incoming voltage usually sits at 110 and sags as I have more draw, it seams.

If this is accurate, it sounds more like you have a voltage drop problem. That comes from the internal wiring of the structure. Are you a ways from the panel?

[Matt Hepworth]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Are you using the P-1800 AR?

Rod

I have its predecessor - the AR-15 Series II

Originally Posted by NL5

If this is accurate, it sounds more like you have a voltage drop problem. That comes from the internal wiring of the structure. Are you a ways from the panel?

A little ways. It happened again tonight. I set my UPS with LCD and was keeping an eye on the voltage tonight and it was averaging around 105V. Dropped below that and *POOF* - system down. Tripped the Furman again - lights dimmed, etc.

[Rod Gervais]

OK - now that I understand the model, and what you just said, this begins to make a bit more sense.....

Personally I would be surprised to find that you have issues with voltage drop in your home unless it was built back in the time of knob and tube wiring... or was wired very VERY badly..... I say this because a #14 Copper conductor delivering 15.0 amps on a 120 volt system, with a length of about 75' will limit the voltage drop to around 5%. So I really doubt that's the issue here.

However - your problem with the Furman unit is that you are overloading it - too many watts on a unit not designed to handle the load.....

Although the unit itself is designed to handle 1500 watts - that is with a line voltage supply to the unit of 124V minimum........ below that voltage level you need to derate the unit and adjust your load accordingly.....

This is taken from the Furman Manual for your unit:

The AR-15 II can handle loads totaling up to 15 amperes as long as the input voltage is equal to or above 124 volts. For voltages below that level, its capacity must be derated at approximately 113 milliamperes per volt. (See graphs on back page.) As a practical matter, therefore, to cope successfully with worst-case brownout conditions, you should plan your total load so that it does not exceed 12 amps, or 1400 watts. Please note that this refers to the aggregate power requirement of all equipment plugged into the Voltage Regulator, not to each individual item.

BTW - this relates to the input wattage of your gear - not the output.

I would double check the actual wattage of the gear you're using - you said it was around 1500 watts....... didn't seem certain if it was actually 1500 - could be slightly more - perhaps slightly less.... but I would begin there.....

Rod

[Speedskater]

Can you get to other circuits using a heavy extension cord? Just to do experiments. Older building sometimes have strange wiring hidden inside the walls. Sometimes bad Neutral connections or wires anywhere out to the power company's transformer can cause "lost Neutral' weirdness.

[Rod Gervais]

If a neutral doesn't exist to an outlet the gear simply should not work - as there would be no continuity of the circuit - if the "neutral" (power company ground) were to be disconnected I would expect his gear to fry...... this can cause some strange effects for sure - however the hot leg of the other service phase would then become the return leg for the power passing through the outlet - and if he were to test the outlet it would read as if it were a 220 device - not a single leg of the service..... this because all of the neutral are tied together regardless of the leg the power is on.

His big problem is an overload of the Furman device as documented by Furman....... and evidenced by the problem he explained in his last post - which appears to be compounded by power variances from his electrical provider.....

To the OP - where are you located in the US?

Rod

[Speedskater]

"Lost Neutral" is a common electrical problem, the Neutral may not completely disappear but a bad connection or bad wire could raise the Neutral resistance anywhere out to the power company transformer. We also have parallel paths to the POCO transformer, the ground rod and metal water pipe for instance. If the Neutral path has high resistance then the loads on the two legs/poles/phases will act as a voltage divider that changes as the loads change.

[Speedskater]

Another check is to get one of those Kill-a-Watt meter. Measure the Voltage, Current & Power into the Furman, also measure the Voltage at several other outlets in the building while the Furman is working hard.

[Rod Gervais]

Sorry speed - but the ground rod and water pipe are not multiple paths to the power company transformer - although they are multiple paths to earth ground (pre-transformer) - and they may cause issues by creating ground loops due to differences in potential between the 2 sources to grounds - but I have never experienced (nor have I ever heard of) them creating issues related to drops in power.

Perhaps you have a link (maybe a Mike Holt thread?) that I could take a gander at?

The manufacturer of his gear (Furman) says he is overloading the gear. I see that as the first place to begin - knowing where he's located might provide some insight as far as the quality of the power supply in his region goes as well.

Rod

[nosebleedaudio]

What you REALLY need to do is know for sure HOW much current your drawing..
An Amprobe is the best method..
I would prefer to measure the voltage with a VOM..

By the way a ground rod and water pipe (if present) bonded together IS required in some States..Its a BETTER ground..And will NOT affect the voltage between Hot and Neutral...

[Speedskater]

Rod G., this is the post from the Rod Holt forum, I'll PM you the link.

Actually, any time you have a service neutral bonded to the water service and the same at all the neighbors' houses with interconnected water mains, you are going to split the neutral load between the neutral conductors and water pipes for everyone and any house you go into will be showing a current reading within a few percent of all of the neighbors' houses (unless someone has a bad neutral...). There's nothing you can do to eliminate load travelling on the water pipes since they're nice and solidly connected to the neutrals at every house on the street and electricity likes to take every path you offer it.

[nosebleedaudio]

The fact is since more and more water pipes are PVC this is not a concern...

[Matt Hepworth]

Thank you very much. I can confirm that I have indeed been overloading my Furman. 1435-1465 watts is the actual usage. Incoming voltage varies between 102 and 117. Obviously, when the incoming is lower the issue arises sooner. Moving my UPS with AVR that the Mac Pro is connected to, but on the same circuit, solves it, but the battery drain on the UPS is severe in trying to regulate the voltage when it dips below 110V. looks like I need the newer Furman Rod mentioned originally, or a second one like I have for the UPS. I'm in Utah, BTW.

Rod, the Tripplite you recommended, does it use the battery for regulation? I couldn't find one exactly matching what you'd posted.

[Rod Gervais]

This is a rack mounted unit Tripp Lite has that would seem to fit your needs.......

Tripp Lite SmartPro 2.2kVA 1.92kW Line Interactive Extended Run UPS, Sine wave, SNMP option, 2U, LCD, USB, Serial, EPO, 120V (SMART2200RMXL2U)

The unit conditions power to maintain stable voltage (without using the batteries) unless the power supply falls above or below range - at which time it switches to battery - the high low range is 83V/145V

This from their specs on the unit:

Voltage regulation description

Automatic voltage regulation (AVR) maintains line power operation with an input voltage range of 83 to 147

Overvoltage correction Voltage reduction of 12% applies when input is between 127 and 145

Undervoltage correction Voltage boost of 12% applies when input voltage is between 96 and 108

Severe undervoltage correction Voltage boost of 24% applies when input voltage is between 83 and 95

Rod

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Rod G., this is the post from the Rod Holt forum, I'll PM you the link.

Actually, any time you have a service neutral bonded to the water service and the same at all the neighbors' houses with interconnected water mains, you are going to split the neutral load between the neutral conductors and water pipes for everyone and any house you go into will be showing a current reading within a few percent of all of the neighbors' houses (unless someone has a bad neutral...). There's nothing you can do to eliminate load travelling on the water pipes since they're nice and solidly connected to the neutrals at every house on the street and electricity likes to take every path you offer it.

Speed,

thanks for the link, I read this - as well as all the other posts on that thread (you just gotta love Mike Holt - great website - I use it a lot) and can only comment that although I can understand some variance on readings of the ground/neutral - I don't see anything there that suggest a wide swing on the line voltage similar to that being reported by the OP.......

Unless you have something different to link to I am not yet convinced.......

Thanks again,

Rod

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Rod G., this is the post from the Rod Holt forum, I'll PM you the link.

Actually, any time you have a service neutral bonded to the water service and the same at all the neighbors' houses with interconnected water mains, you are going to split the neutral load between the neutral conductors and water pipes for everyone and any house you go into will be showing a current reading within a few percent of all of the neighbors' houses (unless someone has a bad neutral...). There's nothing you can do to eliminate load travelling on the water pipes since they're nice and solidly connected to the neutrals at every house on the street and electricity likes to take every path you offer it.

Neutral current will go back to the "Source"..In a typical 240V single phase house it will be the center tap of the main transformer...
So ONLY if you have more than One person on the SAME transformer is this an issue...Do we know this for sure???

Some use terms Neutral and ground like they are the same thing...
YES Neutral IS grounded..But like mentioned.this is ONLY a problem IF you have a bad or NO Neutral connection..
Plus the above "post" is just that..NOT from Mike..right?? Big difference..

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth

We supposedly have our own circuit (15 amp), but when all our gear is running I see the voltage going to our main voltage regulator down in th 110V range and our main Furman's toroidal transformer is humming like crazy trying to keep up. We occasionally get dimming as well.

Contactors and other equipment shatter and hum when not receiving the proper voltage... (or when more current is being drawn and proportionately voltage drops).

Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth

During some crummy weather the Furman tripped.

If I turn on just enough for mixing, all is well. When I power up the other gear for full sessions I see the incoming voltage meter on the Furman keep dropping as I flip the switches.

What trips? If thats a 15 amp fuse on the back, and that's what's tripping, it's probably doing what it's meant to do.(crummy weather, utility company may have been experiencing problems which was enough to "break the camels back" on the furman).
Do you have a meter to check incoming voltage to your furman feed with no load on it?
Sure sounds like VD.

Have you been having any problems with the circuit breaker feeding your 15 amp circuit.

That breaker is designed to work at 80% of it's continuous load (3 hrs or more) value (unless rated continuous for duty)...15 amp breaker = 12 amps...
20 amp breaker = 16 amps...

I don't think its a biggy running the 13 or 14 amps on the 15 as Rod stated..but everthing comes into play, more current more heat, more heat more current.
Not that it is, but even the source of where the circuit originates from could help to the problem.
Throw Utility voltage fluctuations and any possible voltage drops.......just a thought.

If you have access to the panel, bring in a 20 amp with 12 awg wire.
There's rule of thumb (100') to go to the next size higher wire gauge so you may want to go with #10 awg.
For 100' I wouldn't (but depends on your load and voltage calculations).
I didn't pick up where you are........in a house doubt your over 100'...commercial property it's possible.


12's on a 20 amp breaker .......

(fyi- 40' away I've got #8's on a 20amp feeding my furman, not that I needed it but it was there).



http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

I tried this calculator...with the given numbers I got 5.5% drop at 100' (I actually did a 13 amp load not 13.64) it all adds up.

120v at 5% is 114 volt.

120v at 5.5% is 113.4 volt.

120v at alittle over 8% is 110 volts. (which is what you have).

[Matt Hepworth]

After reading through your everyone's advice and reading up on power myself (as well as the manual, e) I am pretty certain now about what's wrong.

The 15 amp thermal braker on the back is what trips. It, like the rest of the system is directly proportional to the voltage it's receiving. When I hit 103 volts I can only have 12.3 amperes load on the unit. Best I can calculate via specs, I'm running right about 12.5 amperes, and the "15 amp thermal breaker" trips, because it's technically a 12.3 amp breaker based on that input voltage.

I have not had any breaker trip at the circuit feeding the Furman.

If I'm not mistaken, I could split the load between two Furman type units connected to the same circuit. I know a 20 amp circuit and an even more robust unit (like the Tripplite) would be ideal, though.

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth

When I hit 103 volts I can only have 12.3 amperes load on the unit. Best I can calculate via specs, I'm running right about 12.5 amperes, and the "15 amp thermal breaker" trips, because it's technically a 12.3 amp breaker based on that input voltage.

Two or ten furmans.......with that load they then should also be getting fed with 103v.


103 v???

I would think to go for a 20 amp circuits fed with #10 awg if you can.

You still haven't mention the type of building your in or how far from the main panel. Is it a rehearsal space. Are others plugging into the electrical service (which may be fine and dandy) but they too are having problems.

I might mention adding a buck/boost transformer. And boost your voltage at your furman receptacle.......but, if other conditions in your building changes and the voltage back to your unit rises, the boost may be a bad thing as you may be running at 130v or more.

Why can't you get a circuit back to the main?

Get a properly sized circuit to your equipment from the main and stop with the band-aid fixes would be my opinion.......

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by ritelec

I might mention adding a buck/boost transformer. And boost your voltage at your furman receptacle.......but, if other conditions in your building changes and the voltage back to your unit rises, the boost may be a bad thing as you may be running at 130v or more.

Which I why I mentioned the Tripp Lite unit - either a boost or cut as required to maintain constant voltage..

Why can't you get a circuit back to the main?

Get a properly sized circuit to your equipment from the main and stop with the band-aid fixes would be my opinion.......

That would (of course) be the preferred path - not always possible though depending on the situation at the building.

Other people in the building might not even know if they are having issues if they aren't loading their circuits to this level........

Rod

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Which I why I mentioned the Tripp Lite unit - either a boost or cut as required to maintain constant voltage..

edit.

checked it out...good to know something like this is out there.




Thanks Rod

[nosebleedaudio]

Just a tid bit about breakers:
A 15 amp breaker is designed to have 15 amps thru it..For ever..
A 20 amp..20 amps...
The ones in a typical AC Panel..
It requires about 40 amps (20 amp breaker) around 45 seconds to as long a 2 minutes to trip the breaker..
They are NOT designed to protect electronic equipment...Fuses are...

[ritelec]

breaker derating, for what it's worth.
http://www.galco.com/techdoc/chgp/egb3015ffg_app.pdf