you and marc can either take it and run with it, take it and morph it and improve the built outcome or throw it in the bin as you see fit. i'm easy either way.
I believe this statement is relevant about now.
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I would HIGHLY recommend hiring a designer to help you with the layout
we could always just keep flogging the dead horse as i did some more comparisons of one of my earlier designs versus the current design. unfortunately there is no aes white paper that provides a criterion for architectural design.
so we are left with basic architectural concepts and area/massing comparison diagrams.
with only a 2 Sqm difference in total floor area (which is the protruding entry). the option attached achieves
1 extra iso booth
same size studio
3 Sqm bigger control room
view corridors to outside
internal isolated connection between entry/lounge/control room/wc
studio isolation from road and existing house
line of sight between musos
equivalent storage amount
easy builder setout
ideal ratios to all rooms
mini bar
all plumbing close to house
private studio entry
articulated facade
etc
whether ones visual idea of a studio includes angled walls or not when we remove aesthetics from the equation and are left with function we are inclined to approach the problem differently.
It's going to be interesting when I finally have the builder start calculating costs. At this point I'll have him look at a few different plans to see which one could possibly even come close to coming in on budget.
The external walls will be reasonably close in footprint, and therefore cost, no matter which internal plan I wind up using. He should be able to look over a few different plans and determine the degree of costs between them.
This is of course if he'll ever deliver to me the first few contractor docs the lender needs to get started. He's had them for almost 2 weeks now! These aren't the long detailed documents, these are just basic license info, etc,.. what's taking so long!
The problem is, I've known the guy for over a decade,..great guy. He'll also get this done cheaper than anyone I could hire, so I pretty much have to be patient.
i would be interested to know how you arrived at that ratio? did you model it in acoustic software?
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ok, well i won't argue the toss but i get different ratios
There is a big problem here. Ratios do not vary by who measures them. I used the control room from your latest skp attachment, “version 1M.” The control room extracted is shown in “version 1M 2.” The key thing in that is the height, 9.89’. The 1.97’ dimension will be discussed later in the post.
Note to others reading the thread and who have not D/Led the file: gouge used the metric system in that file. I switched the units to feet decimal for the purpose of making the salient points of dimensions and ratios easier to understand for people, including Marc, who are used to the Imperial system of units.
In version “1M Control Room” the methodology I used to determine the length and width is shown. The results are in the lower right drawing.
The numbers are height: 9.89’, width: 12.5’, and length: 17.3’. When I wrote that the ratio is 1:1.25:1.73, I had rounded off the height to 10’. The thought was that this is a “work in progress” and any standard ratios that the design is close to would become apparent. Nothing came close. Calculating the ratio with all 3 dimensions to 3 significant digits yields 1:1:26:1:75. Still not close to any standard ratio.
If you want use 1:1.4:1.9, the control room will be about with a 10’ ceiling 11% larger in each dimension and 123% larger in area. This would become close to guilfo’s (great, like always) plans. This is about 20% larger than Marc's current studio.
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onto the seat.
lets put this into perspective. the zone shown on the diagram is approx 1m deep and 3m high. a bench seat is only 450mm high.
the bench seat could be anything, it coulb be slats over abssorption, it could be some timber boards suspended above the floor and open under. the wall could be anything, it could be slats over absorption, diffusion, full absorption or any combination of the above. why assume it's hard surfaces.
Why are you writing about the seat? I wrote in post #419 “A hard reflective surface on the rear wall is not an option. Full range absorption and diffusion go there.”
The back wall in your latest skp has large expanses of hard wall. These are colored as red in “version 1M 3.” The entire back wall will be absorptive/diffusive. This treatment will be 12-18” deep. That is what I referring to. The couch itself can be numerous things, EXACTLY AS YOU WROTE. What I am referring to as the couch is green in “version 1M 3.” As far as no treatment being at the bottom of wall, I had suggested cupboards in that location.
Have you ever read this forum on a regular basis? One of the things you should have picked on is that bass builds up in corners. You have stopped the absorbers on the sides of the back wall 2’ below the ceiling. This is shown in pink in “version 1M 3.” This is the last place you want to reduce absorption.
Andre
__________________ Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction.
rear of control room is notional in sketch up model as stated above probably 2 or more times, ie, not intending to indicate built outcome. i said seat as to me it is part of the whole setup in the rear of the room. now i see your diagram indicating the red zone it is clearer.
so, in my model , the rear of room shows nothing at the moment. there's room for your 12" at least at the seat, then 3' depth above that to do whatever. never thought it would be a blank wall (where shown red) just haven't modelled anything. i allowed such a large zone to allow flexibility for acoustic engineers requirements as well as deep bass trapping.
area above the stuff in the rear of the room (shown pink) would be bass trapping running from left to right most likely. again, i just didn't draw anything.
yes, been reading for a few years now.
moving forward, i would much prefer a critique of my actual designs. i can post sketch models if you like.
I used the height from your drawing. It is your drawing. Why has your drawing a height of 9.89' then? If you use some other dimensions, communicate that. Why are you not using 10'? It has become the height that we are working with.
Marc asked you in post #400 what ceiling height you were working with, and you did not reply. Vaguness on the height was obvious from his question to you.
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rear of control room is notional in sketch up model as stated above probably 2 or more times, ie, not intending to indicate built outcome. i said seat as to me it is part of the whole setup in the rear of the room. now i see your diagram indicating the red zone it is clearer.
That should be clear as how I interpreted it from my post #425 where I wrote "The thought was that this is a “work in progress”." As such I provided input on things I saw in your drawing.
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moving forward, i would much prefer a critique of my actual designs. i can post sketch models if you like.
What I have been critiquing ARE your designs. Why are you ignoring my start of post #417? That is the post that started your latest tirade.
I used the height from your drawing. It is your drawing. Why has your drawing a height of 9.89' then? If you use some other dimensions, communicate that. Why are you not using 10'? It has become the height that we are working with.
Marc asked you in post #400 what ceiling height you were working with, and you did not reply. Vaguness on the height was obvious from his question to you.
That should be clear as how I interpreted it from my post #425 where I wrote "The thought was that this is a “work in progress”." As such I provided input on things I saw in your drawing.
What I have been critiquing ARE your designs. Why are you ignoring my start of post #417? That is the post that started your latest tirade.
Met with my contractor's framer yesterday. No numbers yet, but based on his comments it is going to be near impossible to build the plans I showed him and come in at around $55,000.
His had some issues with where the studio will tie into my house, thus creating more expense.
He was also very concerned that the block exterior walls would be much more expensive than stick built, even if building a double wall construction. This is one of the things that is to be determined.
I do have a question about double walls, just in case I have to go that route. He asked if the outside wall also had to be two layers of sheetrock, because normally they would use plywood on the outside. I'm sure the sheetrock would be more dense, but not sure how, or if sheetrock could be used for external walls. I don't see anywhere in Rod's book that mentions this.
Moreover, how are the double walls supported laterally? It's obvious that if you tied the two together at the top, flanking would occur. I also don't see this mentioned in Rod's book.
Also, in my last few floor plans I was trying to utilize more yard, and had the control room "jutting out" from beyond my 23'. This was yet another concern for the framer. The added problem of running the joist and thus adjusting the roof would once again add to the cost.
So, in the grand scheme of things,... it's already looking like I'll have to drastically start to "trim back" my plan ideas.
I'll have a better idea of what's to come hopefully by next week some time.
on the walls - if you go with the framing of double walls - the exterior wall should be built up with sufficient mass - using drywall between the studs, exterior board sheathing )e.g http://www.americangypsum.com/products/detail/?p_id=137), or perhaps less expensive but also less TL - filling the stud space with insulation foam (e.g. 2+lb/ft3) and applying drywall accepting that there will be a 3rd leaf effect although limiting the air space between the studs with a dense(r) foam may be an acceptable compromise.
on the bracing - use isolation sway braces between the exterior and interior walls - WIC from Mason Industries is very good, Kinetics Noise, Pacific International, and others make braces with varying quality and prices.
going with the simpler footprint and roof will definitely help on your costs.
this is all part of the process so don't sweat it too much.
which floor plans did you show him and what were his thoughts? did he indicate the cost difference with scissor trusses? cost difference between designs? what were the connection issues to your existing?
you are doing the right thing by comparing construction methods, it would be time to identify the construction to the roof and ceiling also, it'll be similar amounts of drywall to the walls.
what you really need is a total construction figure based on specific details to build your studio with the wall roof makeups to achieve your isolation. it will still be a rough guide as you won't have final construction docs at this stage. once you have that figure then you can revise your plans to suit. sounds like you've got one coming so all good.
also if you look at some fo the designs you get improved isolation by having rooms between the road and the studio. this may enable you to pull back on some of the walls in your building by using double stud to the walls away from the road. it will depend largely on how much of the sound from the road gets reflected back to you building from the rear.
the one room in your building you need full isoation on is the studio. the rest may need to take a hit based on budget.
or even brick veneer which does not require core filling but needs isolation battens on the internal stud walls. you can even explore reverse brick veneer.
this is all part of the process so don't sweat it too much.
which floor plans did you show him and what were his thoughts? did he indicate the cost difference with scissor trusses? cost difference between designs? what were the connection issues to your existing?
you are doing the right thing by comparing construction methods, it would be time to identify the construction to the roof and ceiling also, it'll be similar amounts of drywall to the walls.
what you really need is a total construction figure based on specific details to build your studio with the wall roof makeups to achieve your isolation. it will still be a rough guide as you won't have final construction docs at this stage. once you have that figure then you can revise your plans to suit. sounds like you've got one coming so all good.
also if you look at some fo the designs you get improved isolation by having rooms between the road and the studio. this may enable you to pull back on some of the walls in your building by using double stud to the walls away from the road. it will depend largely on how much of the sound from the road gets reflected back to you building from the rear.
the one room in your building you need full isoation on is the studio. the rest may need to take a hit based on budget.
or even brick veneer which does not require core filling but needs isolation battens on the internal stud walls. you can even explore reverse brick veneer.
Didn't get into specific floor plans as there were more pressing cost issues to deal with first.
This guy was very familiar with what a normal construction would cost, given the basic square footage, which is coming in pretty close to my total budget anyway. When you add in the extra cost for the external walls, be it block or double wall, then things are already starting to get really tight, budget wise.
Granted, even though my contractor has been a casual friend/buddy of mine for over a decade, and has stated he will try and build this as cheaply as possible, it still seems that there wont be much budget left to realistically build ANY of the floor plans the way I'd hoped for.
I may be judging too soon, as the builder hasn't even worked out the cost differences between block vs double wall yet, but I do get the feeling that, like I said, I may have to drastically cut back on my design. I'll just have to see "how" drastically after his initial cost calculations.
I'm now considering trying to get a different type of financing for this instead of the FHA renovation loan route. IF I could secure another type of financing, then I could put this in my far back yard, as a separate building, thus removing a lot of the build issues I'm facing now, i.e., limited width, and now the roof/house tie in. There is a window to an upstairs bedroom that is in the way of where the roof will need to tie in. The framer thinks he can make it work,.. but guess what, more cost than usual.
The big issue with separate financing though is that I would then have a much larger payment per month, PLUS my normal mortgage. It would of course be paid off A LOT sooner though.
If I build a separate building, the additional costs would be not being able to tie into the existing plumbing or septic as easily, as well as the electrical. So again, those issues could make it even more costly than simply building on to the house.
And now, literally as I'm writing this, my neighbor (that I'm not too fond of) that sits right beside me (there are woods on the other side) just started this vintage looking pickup truck, with a huge motor sticking up from the hood,.. and this thing sounds like at least 5 harley davidson motorcycles !! Geez I don't think ANY soundproofing could stop that noise pollution!!!
Hopefully my redneck neighbor will move away,.. sooner than later!
Welcome to the wonderful world of studio building. Things get messy once you get off of the neat orderly realm of paper and into the chaos of the real world.
A good rule of thumb is that construction will run 3x the estimate. At least that's what I found. I spent $40,000 on unexpected roofing issues alone...
Be aware that everyday contractors use lots of shortcuts that are fine for normal housing. It's how they make a living in a competitive market. But for studios he may unwittingly be creating lots of isolation short circuits.
Yes, neighbors are noisy. If you were operating in a legitimate business zone you would have recourse. Your neighbor has as much a right to his hobby (noisy trucks. Too bad it's not Zen meditation) as yours. Open headers on a nearby big block with a Roots blower will be more than any studio, short of a bunker, could design around. You could, of course, pursue whatever zoning ordinance is in place. But then you open yourself up to investigation.
Welcome to the wonderful world of studio building. Things get messy once you get off of the neat orderly realm of paper and into the chaos of the real world.
A good rule of thumb is that construction will run 3x the estimate. At least that's what I found. I spent $40,000 on unexpected roofing issues alone...
Be aware that everyday contractors use lots of shortcuts that are fine for normal housing. It's how they make a living in a competitive market. But for studios he may unwittingly be creating lots of isolation short circuits.
Yes, neighbors are noisy. If you were operating in a legitimate business zone you would have recourse. Your neighbor has as much a right to his hobby (noisy trucks. Too bad it's not Zen meditation) as yours. Open headers on a nearby big block with a Roots blower will be more than any studio, short of a bunker, could design around. You could, of course, pursue whatever zoning ordinance is in place. But then you open yourself up to investigation.
I here ya. It's very disheartening for sure. I really have to keep reminding myself that I've been getting by with my small bonus room for quite some time now, so anything I build will be better than that. I just have to decide that if this turns into nothing more than just a large bonus room (due to cost limitations), will it be worth it to me financially. Moreover, I could go back and build the internal studio later I suppose,.. at least in theory.
I just feel that at my age (53), I need to do something now, or I might miss my opportunity to work the rest of my days in a real studio, instead of a room in my house.
This is the first time my neighbor has had such a truck in his driveway. Hopefully it is a temporary situation. Usually I just have to deal with his constantly barking dog.
i wouldn't worry about it. i understand it's disheartening but you've lost nothing at this stage. it's just lines on paper.
you can easily reduce the size of your studio and still have a workable space if that's what is needed from the costing outcomes and you stick with your current financing options.
i spent 5 minutes and reduced your studio size by 25% without any thought. the way to look at the designs to date is that they are planning. ie. relationships of spaces. how big those spaces are depends on your budget.
an example of a 25% smaller layout with no thought is below. it would not be the final layout, merely an example. all rooms would still be ideal ratios and control room is same size as on my previous layouts.
at the end of the day, there are no problems. only opportunities.
looking at that design i could tweak it and still achieve 3 rooms and a seperate bar/control/toilet arrangement.
thought i'd start looking at treatment elevations for "my" design (post 422) with the most important room in the building. no not the bar. the live room.
first image looking at the wall you see when you walk in the door.
second image looking at the wall of the iso booths
final image looking at the end wall towards the "woods" which you see from the control room.
Well, after my builder got together with his framer, they concluded that there's no way they can build this and come any where close to my budget.
Seems like I recall Andre stating that he'd be amazed if I could do this with my budget,.. well, he was spot on!
The builder and framer stated that even if they were using standard walls, the cost would still come in WAY over budget. Why he wasn't able to tell me that upon first looking over my plans, I don't know. I do know it's very depressing.
Since this was going to be a refinance/renovation loan, I really can't afford any more than around $55,000 added to my mortgage.
I'm pretty sure I could secure another form of financing that doesn't require traditional bank financing. Basically an unsecured business loan. I wouldn't be able to afford a huge monthly, so I would likely just try to build the basic shell, with electrical, and hvac,.. then go back and finish the inside as I can afford it. The good part about that financing is that, while the separate monthly payment will suck,.. at least I can have it paid off in around 5 years or so. Just wouldn't be able to afford much of the other items/equipment to complete a decent studio until then. I also could then maybe build a separate building in the back of my property, instead of connecting to my home, which of course would make the floor way easier.
The best laid plans huh?.. geez,.. such is life!
Thanks to all that have participated in this. I'll keep you guys posted when/if I get this sorted out.
Well LSP, you have planted some seeds of a future studio for you and it now becomes a matter of FINDING your way there! Ignore all reasons why you are not there now and keep going! Best of luck Michael
I've only gotten one quote from a contractor, and it wasn't really that bad. He came in around 54-55 dollars pr/sq. st., bearing in mind that that quote was for adding a dining room to the house, plus the 1000 sq/ft structure which will be my studio, for a total of approx. $54,800.
He "ballparked it" at coming in well over $100,000 IF it was built as I wanted.
To build it as nothing more than a standard "stick built" construction (no soundproofing), probably around $75,000.
He also stated that he doesn't see how the first contractor could possibly build it, even with NO soundproofing, for around $55,000,... unless he was just desperate for work, and maybe has a lot of unused material lying around.
I suppose I could make it smaller,... but I could see that quickly turning in to nothing more than just a little larger "bonus room", which is what I have now. Not worth it IMO.
Can you just make a CR and LR and skip the iso booths? You said you wanted low cost demos for bands.. live 'off the floor' takes with everyone in the room can still give great results (assuming the band can actually play). If you need to separate someone, they can always come into the CR with you.
I do have a question about double walls, just in case I have to go that route. He asked if the outside wall also had to be two layers of sheetrock, because normally they would use plywood on the outside. I'm sure the sheetrock would be more dense, but not sure how, or if sheetrock could be used for external walls. I don't see anywhere in Rod's book that mentions this.
What edition of the book do you have?
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Moreover, how are the double walls supported laterally? It's obvious that if you tied the two together at the top, flanking would occur. I also don't see this mentioned in Rod's book.
This is covered in both editions in depth - look at chapter 10 again - there are a bunch of details for isolated lateral bracing...... it is also mentioned in chapter 4 at the end of the chapter (less detail though)
The half bath is a must have. One of my main goals was to no longer have clients coming into my home, so you can see why a bathroom HAS to be part of the design.
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Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh
Can you just make a CR and LR and skip the iso booths? You said you wanted low cost demos for bands.. live 'off the floor' takes with everyone in the room can still give great results (assuming the band can actually play). If you need to separate someone, they can always come into the CR with you.
Sure I could. I've come to realize though the vital importance of having an air lock,... which was going to be one of the iso rooms. If I had to I suppose I could just deal with NOT having an air lock. The problem is that even if this was built with NO additional rooms, including the control room,.. it would still come in over budget,... that is IF I were to try to build it with soundproof external walls.
This is covered in both editions in depth - look at chapter 10 again - there are a bunch of details for isolated lateral bracing...... it is also mentioned in chapter 4 at the end of the chapter (less detail though)
Yes, I had already gone back and re read that chapter and I see what you mean now. For someone like myself who has never built anything beyond a simple bass trap,...the diagrams are a bit difficult to "see" what you mean. The more I read and research, the more they start to make sense.
I do have a question about double walls, just in case I have to go that route. He asked if the outside wall also had to be two layers of sheetrock, because normally they would use plywood on the outside. I'm sure the sheetrock would be more dense, but not sure how, or if sheetrock could be used for external walls. I don't see anywhere in Rod's book that mentions this.
In Chapter 10 I dealt with adding mass to the inside face of an outside wall using drywall - never really spoke about it with new construction (will have to address that in the 3rd edition I guess) however there are drywall products on the market specifically made for use in outside applications.
With new wood construction I would opt to sheath the building with structural sheathing to deal with wind and seismic loads - then apply multiple layers of Densglas to obtain the desired density of the outer wall surface.
When planning this you should look carefully as to where you place the outside face of framing to assure that the final layer of Densglas is flush with the outside face of foundation so you can properly seal the edge at that joint.
Apply building paper/ siding/flashing/trim as you normally would over the Densglas to complete the work.
The half bath is a must have. One of my main goals was to no longer have clients coming into my home, so you can see why a bathroom HAS to be part of the design.
Sure I could. I've come to realize though the vital importance of having an air lock,... which was going to be one of the iso rooms. If I had to I suppose I could just deal with NOT having an air lock. The problem is that even if this was built with NO additional rooms, including the control room,.. it would still come in over budget,... that is IF I were to try to build it with soundproof external walls.
Marc
Problem solved!
If that's not enough... you could always go with the 'double-decker'... i would strongly suggest not using the bottom stall when the upper is occupied though...
If that's not enough... you could always go with the 'double-decker'... i would strongly suggest not using the bottom stall when the upper is occupied though...
Coincidentally, I just went to an outdoor event with the family, and of course had to use the dreaded porta potty,... man those things are disgusting!
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