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Cloud "anomoly" or is this "normal"?
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Old 8th August 2012   #1
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Cloud "anomoly" or is this "normal"?

Hi Everybody,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

(TL;DR... This post got long, so the main idea is that after putting up a "cloud", my bass seems to have gotten "lost" again...even though at first it was greatly improved with bass traps around the room. Is this "normal"? Should I take the cloud down?)

I recently treated my room with GIK acoustics and I'm amazed and thrilled by the improvement. I was having a lot of trouble in my new room with a MAJOR dip in the 100-180hz range and Brian Pape at GIK helped me come up with a plan.

The first thing we did was to move the location of my desk/monitors. Instantly I had about a 6db boost in my dip...just by moving my desk! Next, Brian helped me plan the room treatment. I put up 4 soffits in the corners, 3 monster traps on the back wall, and 2 244's on each wall to the left and right of the monitoring position. Those were easy to install and went up quickly. I decided to put up the 2 244's for my "cloud" the next day since it was already late.

After putting up the room treatment on the walls, I was amazed at the amount of audible bass coming from my little Event PS 6's! I've always loved the mids and highs of those monitors, but in my new room the bass was severly lacking (even with a sub). It was like I bought new monitors they sounded so different (and so good!). (Though my Adam S2X's are on their way..!)

Since the wall treatment made such an amazing difference, I was excited to put up the 244's as a "cloud". After finally getting them in the right position (and a few extra holes in my ceiling...) I ran through some reference tracks... What happened? It seemed like I was back to square one..! All that noticeable (and beautiful) bass that I heard after the wall treatment seemed to go away after I put up the cloud. Does this seem "normal"? I can't imagine how putting up more bass traps on the ceiling would negatively affect my bass response.

If anyone, (Glenn at GIK?) has any insights to this, I would greatly appreciate it. My floors are carpeted, and my ceiling is a "popcorn" ceiling.

I'm hesitant to take the cloud down, because I used those "fold out bolts" that you put through the ceiling and they fold out creating a brace. If I unscrew them, the bolts will stay in the ceiling and I will be left with some major holes. If I decide to put the cloud back up, I will have to get new "fold out bolts" and do it all over again. IT wasn't the easiest thing to do...

My next move is to take measurements using the REW Room EQ software with the cloud still installed to see what the curve looks like. If there is a major dip again I will take the cloud down, but since I didn't take any measurements before I put the cloud up (when the treatment was just on the walls), I don't have a good comparison. I'm also hesitant to take the cloud down until my new Adams get here, but in the meantime I'm having a really hard time mixing.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/insights you guys might have!

Sincerely,
Sol
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Old 8th August 2012   #2
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Quick question: Can the wrong placement of panels ....

Clarification Re: "You can't make it worse"

SBIR
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Old 8th August 2012   #3
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Thanks Jens. So after reading those other posts, it seems my conclusion is that with so many variables, anything is possible and my experience isn't outside of "normal".

I guess the next step would be to trust my ears and take the cloud down (even though they are bass traps...). I'm still going to take some measurements before I take them down, and then take more measurements after they come down to compare.

Thanks again!

Sol
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Old 8th August 2012   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulicious View Post
I guess the next step would be to trust my ears and take the cloud down (even though they are bass traps...). I'm still going to take some measurements before I take them down, and then take more measurements after they come down to compare.
I wouldn’t choose a "good" FR in the lows over a strong reflection from above ... Better to identify the source of the remaining issues and treat accordingly. Don´t forget to check the ETC and decay plots (the FR-curve is the least interesting one).
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Old 8th August 2012   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
I wouldn’t choose a "good" FR in the lows over a strong reflection from above ... Better to identify the source of the remaining issues and treat accordingly.
Thanks for the advice. Quick question: how can I tell if there is actually a strong reflection from above. Audibly, it seems my only issue is with low frequencies. Is there something specific to look for in my measurements that will reveal reflections from above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Don´t forget to check the ETC and decay plots (the FR-curve is the least interesting one).
Can you extrapolate on this? If I check these, what am I looking for? (I'm assuming FR stands for "frequency response"). Will the REW software work for checking these? I'm going to research ETC and decay plots now!

Thanks!
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Old 8th August 2012   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulicious View Post
I'm going to research ETC and decay plots now!


Before posting your measurement results
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Old 8th August 2012   #7
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Thanks for the link! Time to do some homework!
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Old 9th August 2012   #8
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You basically have a null that was being off set by the reflection off the ceiling before and yes you can hunt it down and treat it. Keep in mind though that the goal is for your mixes to translate well so if not having the cloud does this then by all mean take it down. There is no right, wrong or rule. What matters is what works for you and gets the job done.
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Old 9th August 2012   #9
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Perception

We recording/mix folk have a integrating analysis function. e.g. If mixes come up dull, observed over time, perhaps with different engineers, then the room is too bright. Additionally, short term observations are often overturned. Or modified. Your current perceived lack of LF may be actually an improvement in HF.
A cloud, unless absolutely massive, is unlikely to change the LF response. However by removing destructive HF reflection paths it can increase the clarity if the HF, if not the actual amount. This crystal clear, vivid imaging, thing is caused by a Zone Without Reflections.
To cut to the chase, try turning down the tweeter to establish a sloped response which pleases you and translates well over time.

Measurement, (with learned skills on how to use it) is a very certain path to walk on. It doesn't suffer from the short term observation wobbles, nor does it need long term confirmations.

DD
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Old 9th August 2012   #10
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Thanks Glenn and DanDan for the perspective. @Glenn I agree that the bottom line is getting good work done (having mixes translate well), so if it's as simple as taking the cloud down, that just might be enough.

I'm going to continue to do my homework and decide which move to make next.

For what it's worth, I've been using the same monitors for over ten years and it wasn't until my recent move (to a new room) that I started to really have problems with my mixes translating poorly in the LF range. I'm pretty confident that the mids and high end are consistent with my experience of these monitors; even with the cloud. ...but to be sure, I'm going to use measurements to help me clarify that what I'm hearing is "true".

Thanks again guys!
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Old 9th August 2012   #11
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P.S. @Glenn Thanks for making such amazing and beautiful products! I am extremely pleased!
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Old 9th August 2012   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulicious View Post
P.S. @Glenn Thanks for making such amazing and beautiful products! I am extremely pleased!
Thanks for the kind words. BTW if you want to email Bryan and myself we would be more then happy to help you with your next step.
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