Spendthrift UK D.I.Yers....Unite here!

[smaggers]

The cheapest pukka MLV membrane I've found is T50
Tecsound 50 Visco elastic High Performance Acoustic Membrane Insulation Range
Very occasionally comes up on ebay, though allegedly Vinyl flooring works as well*.


*but possibly not for all MLV applications

[AndreBenoit]

Thanks smaggers, that seems alot more reasonable than what auralex want for a single roll of sheetblok (£300!!!)
I'd be very interested to hear of anyone has tested the vinyl flooring theory?
I'm still thinking green glue is the more cost effective for it's coverage

[smaggers]

Anyone know any good sources for cheap fabric in the UK?

[sheggs]

Originally Posted by AndreBenoit

Thanks smaggers, that seems alot more reasonable than what auralex want for a single roll of sheetblok (£300!!!)
I'd be very interested to hear of anyone has tested the vinyl flooring theory?
I'm still thinking green glue is the more cost effective for it's coverage

Vinyl membrane is relatively expensive in the UK per se mainly due to the lack of demand. The lower weight you go for the less demand there is and the more expensive it can become as well. Go to an insulation company and see if they will sell it to you direct. Otherwise see if Wickes etc can get hold of it
Just remember when making tuned traps it's a science and you can't just stick anything on there

Camira do pretty cheap fabrics but if you really want cheap go to your local market or cloth wholesalers and check out what they have and make sure its breathable

[Glenn Kuras]

Otherwise see if Wickes etc can get hold of it
Just remember when making tuned traps it's a science and you can't just stick anything on there

Agreed 100% and if you plan on using it on broad band trapping you also have to be careful. I have done a lot of testing with it and it can be rather tricky.

[DanDan]

Andre you have no idea. Shipping costs in Ireland are x4 that of Germany.
Specialised materials of any kind are simply not available.

Sounds like you are involved in SoundProofing. If you check what the experienced pros do, I think you will find that most use regular materials only.
e.g. another layer of plasterboard. Simple and guaranteed to work.

Revac is one of the established UK brands of deadsheet.

These people do fabric at 'pro' prices. Untitled Document

DD

[smaggers]

DadDan I owe you a pint for that fabric site. Great link, especially their clearance section.

[AndreBenoit]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Sounds like you are involved in SoundProofing. If you check what the experienced pros do, I think you will find that most use regular materials only.
e.g. another layer of plasterboard. Simple and guaranteed to work.

Revac is one of the established UK brands of deadsheet.

DD

Thanks Dan! Yes I'm planning the soundproofing at the mo, I have a friend who works for a builders merchants & can get me most things at 'cost' prices so I'm lucky in a way but as you say it's the specialist items that eat your budget fastest.
I can afford to lose some room to pull the stud work away from the brick so iv done away with the resilient clip/channel ideas, which were blowing my budget almost on their own!
I still plan on a double layer of acoustic plasterboard but it seems that layer of membrane or green glue can squeeze another 5 or 6 dB which is really what interests me...although that is the item I know the least about & I don't like opening my wallet for something I'm not 100% certain on, especially at those prices!

Andre

[stella645]

For anyone building or about to build broadband absorbers on a tight budget IKEA Minna fabric is on sale.
I paid £6 per metre when I did my first panels, but it's currently on sale in blue and dark grey at my local store (and I assume others?) for just £1 a metre (150cm wide)

Fairly heavy so keeps shape well with frameless absorbers.

[Rockenberry]

Hello Chaps,

Yes I agree, I think I can directly compare the music and acoustic industry to the wedding industry, as in they add a zero or two just because it is for said application.

In terms of construction, if you haven't already, please get Rod Gervais's book, Home Recording Studio:Build it Like the Pros. It will answer many many questions you may have!

Another consideration, a fresh idea from building your own acoustic materials is to go with a reputable acoustic treatment company, such as GIK (Glen has posted on this thread, check his site out).

I have friends who have bought from GIK (as will I), after having built their own stuff (the results of which made them buy from an acoustic treatment company) and the results can be heard immediately, especially when mixing.

If there is one thing I have learnt I that you must try never to cut corners with acoustic treatment and budget for it as if it was a piece of kit. After all, having a good acoustical room will justify buying good equipment and is a massive time saver when it comes down to mixing.

Regards,

Rock.

[DanDan]

Andre, your plan to build an isolated wall, with a damped airgap between it and the outer wall, is a good one. This new wall needs to be floating. i.e. The floor and ceiling plates need to be isolated from whatever they are attached to.
e.g. Glue neoprene to the floor then glue the floor plate to the neoprene.
Maximise the gap. Fill it fully with light cheap insulation. Make sure the insulation doesn't sag. Use netting or whatever. Use two or more layers of plasterboard, different thicknesses.
I cannot imagine how extra resilience or damping would improve this system by 5-8dB. The info on the GG site shows improvements with added GG PLUS an extra layer of plasterboard.

DD

[myles]

Good tip on the fabrics.

The only "specialist" item you really need (if you're not using clips, RC, serious ceiling suspension, etc) is GG. If you shop around, there's a pretty wide range in pricing for it. I don't have the link handy, but I found one that was a good bit lower than the rest.

"Acoustic" gypsum board is valuable only because it's a little denser. Do the math on the price difference and see whether the higher price makes sense vs. an additional layer of regular GB - and don't forget to add in the cost of another layer of GG.

I'll throw in a recommendation for Rod Gervais' book on the slim chance you don't have it. Worth every penny and then some.

[AndreBenoit]

I do have the book & yes it is invaluable! Rod also chimed in on another thread I was reading about thickness of drywall which made me ditch the resilient clip plan.
Ive started to stockpile RW3 100mm 60kg/m3 & lengths of 2"x4" for the stud walls, it's a concrete floor at the mo...I can't decide whether to batten it out (for warmth more than anything) or not?!
I think iv found a local supplier that will sell rolls of neoprene tape at a reasonable price & was going to run this under where the 2"x4" studs meets the concrete floor, this may turn into pretty much covering the floor in neoprene if I decide on a wooden floor.
I'll post the suppliers details here if they come thru with the "rough estimate" I got over the phone

Andre

[AndreBenoit]

I just thought I'd share this place with you guys:

http://www.condell-ltd.com/Page.aspx...FcEOfAodqQQABA

They have just knocked nearly 10% off my order for buying more than 5 packs of RW3, they also have RW5(!) at a decent price...if you can lift it of course!

Andre

[myles]

Thanks, Andre!

[AndreBenoit]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Andre, your plan to build an isolated wall, with a damped airgap between it and the outer wall, is a good one. This new wall needs to be floating. i.e. The floor and ceiling plates need to be isolated from whatever they are attached to.
e.g. Glue neoprene to the floor then glue the floor plate to the neoprene.
Maximise the gap. Fill it fully with light cheap insulation. Make sure the insulation doesn't sag. Use netting or whatever. Use two or more layers of plasterboard, different thicknesses.
I cannot imagine how extra resilience or damping would improve this system by 5-8dB. The info on the GG site shows improvements with added GG PLUS an extra layer of plasterboard.

DD

I probably know the answer to this already Dan but I'm guessing you mean solid neoprene? By any chance would 8mm thick neoprene sponge be of any use at all, because the price difference is massive!!

Andre

[Adhoc]

Neoprene and EPDM sponge rubber will set as time goes by (=be compressed with little to no springback = no floating any more) PU foam, like Sylomer, behaves differently and can be OK, depending on its hardness and probable calculated weight / area unit. Go for solid neoprene, it is available from 40-80 Shore A. Around 40 Shore A is the hardness of a common rubber band in NR, natural rubber.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by AndreBenoit

I still plan on a double layer of acoustic plasterboard but it seems that layer of membrane or green glue can squeeze another 5 or 6 dB which is really what interests me...although that is the item I know the least about & I don't like opening my wallet for something I'm not 100% certain on, especially at those prices!

There are places I would use MLV - but standard wall/ceiling construction would not be one of them.

This product makes no sense whatsoever from a cost/performance point of view.... for walls/ceilings anyway.

You get a pretty good bang for the buck with GG - but drywall is the cheapest mass you can buy..... between drywall and MLV there is no comparison when it comes to "bang for the buck" drywall wins hands down every time.

Rod

[AndreBenoit]

Originally Posted by Adhoc

Neoprene and EPDM sponge rubber will set as time goes by (=be compressed with little to no springback = no floating any more) PU foam, like Sylomer, behaves differently and can be OK, depending on its hardness and probable calculated weight / area unit. Go for solid neoprene, it is available from 40-80 Shore A. Around 40 Shore A is the hardness of a common rubber band in NR, natural rubber.

I had a bad feeling someone was going to say that! Solid is nearly 5 times the price of foam, I guess now is not the time to be cutting corners though!
Til next months wages

Andre

[DanDan]

+1, you are in good hands Andre.
DD

[JackHenry]

Of course, contrary to popular belief, 'Spendthrift' isn't someone who is cheap.

Spendthrift actually means someone that SPENDS money wastefully.

From Wiki

"A spendthrift (also called profligate) is someone who spends money prodigiously and who is extravagant and recklessly wasteful, often to a point where the spending climbs well beyond his or her means. The word derives from an obsolete sense of the word "thrift" to mean prosperity rather than frugality, so that a "spendthrift" is one who has spent his prosperity"

I'm just saying....

[AndreBenoit]

There's always one eh! 3 posts in 5 years & that was your best contribution?!

To get the thread back on track, here's some fire treated cloth that's pretty cheap...only comes in black or white though I'm afraid. Now I have it in my hands it feels very similar to that membrane that gets used in gardens which I guess would have been cheaper, at least it's presprayed in the fire reetardant stuff!
http://www.fabricuk.com/fabrics.php?fabric_type=278

Andre

[AndreBenoit]

Originally Posted by Adhoc

Neoprene and EPDM sponge rubber will set as time goes by (=be compressed with little to no springback = no floating any more) PU foam, like Sylomer, behaves differently and can be OK, depending on its hardness and probable calculated weight / area unit. Go for solid neoprene, it is available from 40-80 Shore A. Around 40 Shore A is the hardness of a common rubber band in NR, natural rubber.

Out of interest, would a 65 shore rubber be too hard for the purposes we have mentioned?

Andre

[Adhoc]

First: I do not have practical experience of installing floating floors with rubber under, so take what I write with a pinch of salt compared to others who may join in and have the experience.

As I see it:
A) The rubber should act as a soft spring, meaning take up vibrations so the movement energy will be transformed to heat instead of just being “transported” to the outer shell and neighbors => noice, due to a stiff and rigid connection. At the same time the resonance frequency of the system (= speakers + the floor /wall) will be lowered, with the aim to be much lower than what the speakers can play,. This is the reason why many advise a “soft foot” as decoupling under a speaker instead of metal spikes which gives a system resonance above what speakers can play in the low region => noice to neighbors. (Perhaps subjectively pleasing to the ear in the room where you play, but not popular for others.)

B) One should not look at the hardness alone. Of importance should also be compression set and tensile strength. A large figure of compression set (over time) means the rubber gets compressed and thinner => remaining material thickness acting as spring is decimated => worse performance. (This would be the case with sponge rubber of EPDM and neoprene or nitril). If you go over the tensile strength figure, the rubber will crack, -a thinner wood stud against the rubber will apply a larger pressure than a wider one with a larger contact area for the mass above. => Some calculations would be necessary so you are on the safe side. If you aim for a certain system resonance (lowered), this would involve more elaborate calculations with spring constant for the material, mass etc.

In enclosed pdfs you have various qualities and hardnesses for Trelleborgs chloroprene rubber CR (= another name for neoprene) and mixtures with SBR-rubber. As you see, the hardness alone does not qualify if the rubber is “good” or not. Differences between them depends on additives like clay, carbon black and whatever.

[AndreBenoit]

Originally Posted by Adhoc

First: I do not have practical experience of installing floating floors with rubber under, so take what I write with a pinch of salt compared to others who may join in and have the experience.

As I see it:
A) The rubber should act as a soft spring, meaning take up vibrations so the movement energy will be transformed to heat instead of just being “transported” to the outer shell and neighbors => noice, due to a stiff and rigid connection. At the same time the resonance frequency of the system (= speakers + the floor /wall) will be lowered, with the aim to be much lower than what the speakers can play,. This is the reason why many advise a “soft foot” as decoupling under a speaker instead of metal spikes which gives a system resonance above what speakers can play in the low region => noice to neighbors. (Perhaps subjectively pleasing to the ear in the room where you play, but not popular for others.)

B) One should not look at the hardness alone. Of importance should also be compression set and tensile strength. A large figure of compression set (over time) means the rubber gets compressed and thinner => remaining material thickness acting as spring is decimated => worse performance. (This would be the case with sponge rubber of EPDM and neoprene or nitril). If you go over the tensile strength figure, the rubber will crack, -a thinner wood stud against the rubber will apply a larger pressure than a wider one with a larger contact area for the mass above. => Some calculations would be necessary so you are on the safe side. If you aim for a certain system resonance (lowered), this would involve more elaborate calculations with spring constant for the material, mass etc.

In enclosed pdfs you have various qualities and hardnesses for Trelleborgs chloroprene rubber CR (= another name for neoprene) and mixtures with SBR-rubber. As you see, the hardness alone does not qualify if the rubber is “good” or not. Differences between them depends on additives like clay, carbon black and whatever.

Thank you for a very detailed answer! The rubber isn't for a floor but for under the footplate of the stud walls, it will be carrying an approximate load of 650kg but I guess the principle is the same.
The reason I ask is because, other than occasional holidays, I have never encountered a 'shore' before & wasn't sure as to what was hard or soft. From your info I think it's safe to deduce that 65 shore will be too hard for isolation of walls but if I aim to find something closer to 40 shore, I must ensure it has a low compression set value & high tensile strength

Thanks again!

Andre