Transmission Loss of Windows

[Glenn Kuras]

Is there any info in Rod's book on this?

Rod??

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Is there any info in Rod's book on this?

Rod??

No, there isn't........ I deal in the book with methods of creating isolating panels for these opening - but not the windows themselves.

Rod

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I am looking for data, links, and opinions from experienced acousticians, regarding the efficacy of various window types in terms of 'soundproofing'.
Studio window designs are well covered so I would like to restrict this to windows sharing the outdoors.

Specifically I am interested in:-
Frames, uPVC, Aluclad wood?
Glass, Laminated vs Tempered?
Effect of different thickness of glass in each layer?
Effect of the Gap width, including Gas fill?
Two layers vs three?

DD

Dan,

This is fairly complex and rather problematic.

For example - if you examine cad details from several different manufacturer's for similar window constructions - you will see a lot of differences between their designs....... nothing would indicate that you should expect similar results in their acoustic performance.

That introduces the complexity - not for the problematic side of things.....

I have tried - with little to no success - to get acoustic information out of window manufacturers in the past.....

This is not a difficult task when it comes to the manufacturers of windows that are specifically produced for the purpose of sound isolation - but I have found it to be virtually impossible for windows that are not manufactured specifically for that purpose.

An example of this would be Andersen Windows

This is what Andersen publishes on their website for their Series 400 Casement Windows"

400 Series Casement Window - Sound Performance


...........(STC)..(OITC)
Single......26......22
Double.....26......22
Triple.......26......22


Within the last year I had a relatively large, 5 story, apartment project located in the middle of New Haven CT - a fairly large city on the CT shoreline.

Compressor and fan noise from some rooftop units located on an adjacent property (sitting on a roof located just above the first floor of the adjacent property) were a huge issue for my clients.

They expressed that Andersen would be their window of choice for these high end apartments.

I approached Andersen and requested copies of the test results for specific windows that would be used on this project - with the assurance that these would be sent to me.

3 months later I had received neither copies of the tests - nor any response to my follow up calls in that regard.

I did get information from a manufacturer of "sound windows" and we ended up using their products in the problem areas - and a different manufacturer with a window very similar in appearance for the areas that were not a concern.

Now this was not a million dollar deal for Andersen - but it was probably in the area of 100 to 130,000 worth of their windows... so I find myself a bit confused by their failure to provide the documentation - but that is the way it came down.

Getting information from window manufacturers (other than what you see above) is not all that easy in general.

Rod

[DanDan]

Not encouraging but very real and very welcome thank you Rod.
The situation I am dealing with is very real, very small in numbers, but very real to the people experiencing the problem.
A hotel function room is flimsy. Bands are micing the Kick. 50Metres away a retired couple are hearing a thump thump clearly at the window, not the wall, not the ceiling. Audibly, I would say 30-80Hz. I am hoping for a window to replace the 20 year old, but still intact and clean ones, to reduce this to tolerable. I have stated that this will be one of several measures. I don't expect a miracle. However the intent and budget is there for a great window. So I can specify 10mm Laminated glass, 10 or more gap, a different glass.....etc. Three layers if it is wise.
Flanking of course will appear once this primary audible hole is plugged.
But as I said, this will take several measures, and time, to observe small incremental improvements. I have supplied them with a cheap SLM.
Noise Control has a psych element. They don't hear a ticking clock in the same room.
My decisions will ultimately have to get simple. Solid wood Aluclad vs foam filled uPVC. Two or three layers? of what glass?
DD

[jhbrandt]

I have added several tabs to my Reflections, Boundaries, & Mass Calculator (on my publications page) which lists the mass of many elements - PLUS, on the fourth tab you have a "Glass Density-Thickness" chart to help you calculate the thickness of glass necessary for a partition. Have fun.
Cheers,
John

[Sebg]

DD, I imagine you are aware that thermal double-glazed and triple-glazed windows are usually not useful for controlling thump-thump noise.

[Rod Gervais]

DD,

we were faced with a LF issues (on ramp to a highway with a lot of tractor trailers on that route) at a hotel a few years back (not my build - I would hope my builds would never get to that point when completed)

The solution to the problem was to leave the existing windows and add an independent laminated glazing inboard of the existing.

However - if they are replacing the windows - why not consider sound isolating windows? There will be no question of what they will deliver, and you should find it easy to get the data you need to make the assessment.

Rod

[DanDan]

The current windows are clean but old and the rubber seals feel a bit iffy.
They are clearly the primary source of sound ingress.
So replacement is a given.
I am looking for an improvement.
Sebg, I am aware that 30-60Hz will be little affected, but am hoping for 'some'.
Are you wisely warning me that there will be no significant TL?

Ireland is very remote in all sorts of ways. Shipping to here is a multiple of e.g. German and such rates. So most likely I will be restricted to a pretty regular window.
I reckon I will chose Aluclad wood frame over hollow or foam filled uPVC.
I will maximise the thickness of glass and the gap.
Probably 10mm glass, 15mm gap, 8mm glass.
Any opinions on laminated for the exterior layer?
I have been searching but haven't found a specific source of Sound Isolating windows in the UK.
Any such source would be very welcome.
DD

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by DanDan

The current windows are clean but old and the rubber seals feel a bit iffy.
They are clearly the primary source of sound ingress.
So replacement is a given.
I am looking for an improvement.
Sebg, I am aware that 30-60Hz will be little affected, but am hoping for 'some'.
Are you wisely warning me that there will be no significant TL?

I would expect very little in that frequency range

Ireland is very remote in all sorts of ways. Shipping to here is a multiple of e.g. German and such rates. So most likely I will be restricted to a pretty regular window.
I reckon I will chose Aluclad wood frame over hollow or foam filled uPVC.
I will maximise the thickness of glass and the gap.
Probably 10mm glass, 15mm gap, 8mm glass.
Any opinions on laminated for the exterior layer?
I have been searching but haven't found a specific source of Sound Isolating windows in the UK.
Any such source would be very welcome.
DD

Secondary glazing systems:

Noise insulation: sound deadening acoustic insulation windows

Secondary Glazing Suppliers| Secondary Double Glazing | Noise reduction and thermal insulation | window draught and sound proofing - Duration Windows

Soundproof Windows in Hampshire from KJM in Andover

Primary Glazing Systems:

Regency Glass Ltd - Products

UPVC Casement Windows - Sound Proofing

Rod

[DanDan]

Thank you much Rod. My Google didn't return even one of those.
I have found a way around by using Google.co.uk and shaking hands with the queen. Nice one.
Looks like I need to persuade them to consider a secondary window as the way to go instead of a backup plan.

DD

[jhbrandt]

Dan,

We are in Indonesia... and I can go down to the glass shop and ask them to laminate a certain size and thickness - 2 weeks later, I have my glass. Most of it is 8mm+PVB+8mm, 10mm+pvb+10mm, 12mm+pvb+12mm. We build the frames ourselves - maybe I could have some made for you. - It's cheap here...
I would think that you would be able to find a company that makes laminated glass panes there in Ireland. ??
Just be sure to size the actual glass properly because you cannot cut it after it is laminated.
Cheers,
John

[Rod Gervais]

John,

I used to own a glass company (back in the 70's) and we used to cut laminated glass all the time..... as long as the glazing faces are annealed this should not be a problem.......

After making the cut and break in the top piece, turn the sheet over and make an identical cut and break to the other side.

After both sides have been cut you can gently stretch the interlayer by holding the off-cut while letting it sag towards the floor and running a sharp blade along between the two pieces.

Another common way of dealing with the membrane is to tip methylated spirits onto the break and allow it to melt the interlayer while stretching as described.

Carefully applying heat from a heat gun will help the interlayer stretch.

Some people tip with a flammable substance and then burn the inner layer - but I do not recommend this method.

Rod

[jhbrandt]

Rod,
Thank you for the details.

I knew there was way, but I also knew that it wasn't easy. I think that I'll leave cutting that stuff to the glass pros.
Cheers,
John

[John White]

Dan,

There is some great data here starting on page 118.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do...r818/ir818.pdf

The TL seem very consistent from 50-160dB

I'm curious to know at what distance from each other two windows would significantly increase TL *- in these lower frequencies.

Thought of this thread when I read the report.

[Jedanor]

I've only been able to skim this thread and I am heading out the door but if you'd like TL tests there are a few companies that have done a decent job that I can recommend:

DeVAC / MonRey
St. Cloud

You can also try and dig up an old Monsanto binder put out by Saflex where they go over many tests conducted for various window configurations, i.e. single pane, laminated, insulating, laminate + insulating, triple pane...

Most data are TL tests as per ASTM E90. Some manufacturers post the OITC as well.

I hope this helps.

Jed

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Jedanor

I've only been able to skim this thread and I am heading out the door but if you'd like TL tests there are a few companies that have done a decent job that I can recommend:

DeVAC / MonRey
St. Cloud

You can also try and dig up an old Monsanto binder put out by Saflex where they go over many tests conducted for various window configurations, i.e. single pane, laminated, insulating, laminate + insulating, triple pane...

Most data are TL tests as per ASTM E90. Some manufacturers post the OITC as well.

Jed,

I love the St Cloud products - have used them in my builds in the past.

Getting the info out of companies like them is easy - this because they are in business with this purpose in mind - it is the companies whose primary concern is other than isolation where it becomes difficult (if not impossible) to get actual test data from......

Seeing the final results without seeing the test data itself is not all that meaningful.

Rod

[avare]

Originally Posted by Jedanor

You can also try and dig up an old Monsanto binder put out by Saflex where they go over many tests conducted for various window configurations, i.e. single pane, laminated, insulating, laminate + insulating, triple pane...

The Saflex Architectural Acoustic Guide starting on page 61 may have this same information, or similar, for many configurations.

Andre

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by avare

The Saflex Architectural Acoustic Guide starting on page 61 may have this same information, or similar, for many configurations.

Andre

Andre - great resource - thanks.

The only thing that gives me pause with their tests is the fact that they did not (and obviously could not) take the window frames into consideration with their tests.

I would expect - depending on the frame/frame configuration, etc. that this could play a much larger role than one might think at first glance.

But still a great resource my friend,

Rod