I have a one room studio where I mix and record and I'm trying to devise a new ceiling treatment.
Ceiling is 8 and half feet high room is 14x17. I'm planning on covering most of the ceiling with 2" 703.
My question is do I benefit from having my mix possition panel at an angle to the floor - say its a 8'x10' panel and I have it hanging over my mix spot, do it angle it so the front is hanging lower than the back? Hopefully this question makes sense.
In the back of the room where I record drums I will most likely put it up level with a 2" space to the ceiling. I was toying with the idea of having it angle so the back is lower than the front. Might there be a benefit of this?
If it's a purely absorptive panel there is no real benefit to angling it. You should space it down from the ceiling at least 2" if possible. Also if you can use thicker panels around the perimeter of the room, in wall/ceiling corners, to give yourself some bass trapping.
Ive been reading thread after thread on this black art of acoustics. The only thing I've actually learned is Jens(along with many others) answers are always the same...."become an acoustician"! Really!, how about some simple practical advise, like "this might sound good if you do this...." Not unlike most guys on here, i'm interested in making great sounding music, not becoming some psycho acoustics guru. My advice to the original poster, try it with your desk, listen to it, trust your ears and experiment till you get the desired "sound" result. I promise you, if you spend the time experimenting and building all kinds of traps and diffusors, you will hit on a winners before you get done reading all the shit these guys will tell you that you "need to understand". Look for photos of studios, then emulate, and most importantly, Trust your ears everything else is BS. IM(not so)HO
Ive been reading thread after thread on this black art of acoustics. The only thing I've actually learned is Jens(along with many others) answers are always the same...."become an acoustician"! Really!, how about some simple practical advise, like "this might sound good if you do this...." Not unlike most guys on here, i'm interested in making great sounding music, not becoming some psycho acoustics guru. My advice to the original poster, try it with your desk, listen to it, trust your ears and experiment till you get the desired "sound" result. I promise you, if you spend the time experimenting and building all kinds of traps and diffusors, you will hit on a winners before you get done reading all the shit these guys will tell you that you "need to understand". Look for photos of studios, then emulate, and most importantly, Trust your ears everything else is BS. IM(not so)HO
Acoustics is not black art, it´s a science. An as with any science, we first measure in order to know what the problem in order to treat accordingly. If you don´t like it, by all means; use your ears and toss up some panels at random … then it becomes black art.
Acoustics is not black art, it´s a science. An as with any science, we first measure in order to know what the problem in order to treat accordingly. If you don´t like it, by all means; use your ears and toss up some panels at random … then it becomes black art.
Science! lol, You guys don't even agree amongst your own "scientific" community(remember, I've been reading the threads). I will also reiterate, its more of an art, not so much a science. Kind of a study within SOME accepted parameters. Very subjective to say the least. Acoustics possess infinite variables, from the hydration of your ear drums, to the wall at the end of the universe, never mind the end of the control room. In all honesty, I don't really need a scientist to tell me what sounds good, beside, you guys don't answer any Q's anyway!! It's always just "read this, and get back to me in ten years when your done". No thanx, I'm an Artist...making Art. Im going to insult you in the fashion of Towlie from South Park now,.....ready....here goes......"You're an Artist"
Ps. all kidding aside, I totally respect you guys, clearly you're all very bright and I believe you mean well, I've just been reading for days and have grown frustrated. I even pre read all the qrdude stuff to get it under my belt, then clicked download only to find IT DOESNT WORK ON MAC!!DOHHH!!
Science! lol, You guys don't even agree amongst your own "scientific" community(remember, I've been reading the threads). I will also reiterate, its more of an art, not so much a science. Kind of a study within SOME accepted parameters. Very subjective to say the least. Acoustics possess infinite variables, from the hydration of your ear drums, to the wall at the end of the universe, never mind the end of the control room. In all honesty, I don't really need a scientist to tell me what sounds good, beside, you guys don't answer any Q's anyway!! It's always just "read this, and get back to me in ten years when your done". No thanx, I'm an Artist...making Art. Im going to insult you in the fashion of Towlie from South Park now,.....ready....here goes......"You're an Artist"
Ps. all kidding aside, I totally respect you guys, clearly you're all very bright and I believe you mean well, I've just been reading for days and have grown frustrated. I even pre read all the qrdude stuff to get it under my belt, then clicked download only to find IT DOESNT WORK ON MAC!!DOHHH!!
If you go to the doctor with a pain in your chest, what would you want him to do:
1. Treating you for the most common disease based only on the symptoms you´ve provided.
2. Examine you in order to figure out what the actual cause of your condition is and treat you based on this information.
Treating (or giving advice on treatment) a room based on assumptions and guesses is never a good option. Why not measure and figuring out what actually is the problem? You don´t need to be an acoustician in order to do measurements and you don´t need expensive gear (the software is free and you can use almost any mic as long as you are aware of the limitations). If you do some measurements and also provide us with detailed information of your room, we will answer specific questions (assuming the ones who asks knows what they want in terms of room response and I understand if this can be a tad tricky to decide on); again and again and again …
Or am I wrong ... perhaps no one appreciates our contribution here?
Ive been reading thread after thread on this black art of acoustics. The only thing I've actually learned is Jens(along with many others) answers are always the same...."become an acoustician"! Really!, how about some simple practical advise, like "this might sound good if you do this...." Not unlike most guys on here, i'm interested in making great sounding music, not becoming some psycho acoustics guru. My advice to the original poster, try it with your desk, listen to it, trust your ears and experiment till you get the desired "sound" result. I promise you, if you spend the time experimenting and building all kinds of traps and diffusors, you will hit on a winners before you get done reading all the shit these guys will tell you that you "need to understand". Look for photos of studios, then emulate, and most importantly, Trust your ears everything else is BS. IM(not so)HO
Acoustics is a science but not rocket science. But hey if some designers don't complicate things then you would never hire them.
Why? Because it tells you everything you need to get started, of course! Right?
Wrong!
Imagine you have no concept of the entire idea behind acoustics. You can read and read and read, all day, and still not make any sense of it if you don't learn the correct fundamentals first.
Let me just give you an example, based on the quote in your linked post:
Measure what? I hear bass problems, I know they are there, why the hell do I need to measure? What's the point? And what do I even need to measure my room? I don't want to spend more money than I set off to spend on acoustics on microphones!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund
2. Find the best position. Usually centered up against a short wall, is the best place to start*. Confirm with measurements. If the room is big, you can experiment with a position away from the wall but then usually more than approx. 1,5-2 meters from it (speakers).
I'm already in a comfortable position in my room. I don't really want to move my entire set up to maybe get a 1db boost at 100hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund
3. Identify and treat your modal and SBIR related issues and educate yourself about different bass-absorbing techniques (pressure based vs. velocity based etc.)
Ok what the hell is modal and whats an SBIR? Hallelujah, 10 more pages of s*** I'm not going to read.
Bass absorbing techniques? What do these traps get trained in some sort of bass kung fu? Pressure vs. velocity, etc is like saying "jelly, jam, etc" to someone who speaks French. Maybe they'll get the etc part, but have no idea what jam and jelly are, spoken in English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund
4. Treat areas that otherwise causes early reflections.
Kinda hard to mis understand that if you've done any reading, so I can't give you any crap there.
--
Anyways, you get my point. Look I know you mean well, and trust me - I read your posts all day, I even go to your "latest posts" to see what you're talking about. I enjoy the scientific discussion and for the most part, I can pick it out because I have been reading threads here for months. But even then, half the concepts are completely over my head. Most people don't know what an acoustic response model is, nor do they care. Their mixes sound like shit at 80hz because they have a null in their mix position. I don't think its a problem at all to link to a previous thread about it, but don't make it so simple. It really doesn't explain anything. And I understand you don't want to write a novel and you shouldn't have to, but writing a sentence doesn't really help someone who has no idea wtf you're talking about you know? I mean, maybe like 3 sentences for each thing.
Testing is extremely important, and without it you cannot properly address the problems in your room. It takes seriously 10 minutes max to download REW and open it up, and plug a mic in. I get this. People who don't post in the acoustic section normally don't.
Know what I mean?
Again Jens, don't get me wrong; you're brilliant on this board. And while the links you do post are helpful to some; I feel a little ease off the intensity of your formal writing would help more.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by onceagain
I agree Tony, but I think Jens is on commission for posting that link about the 5x4x2.5 modal response thing, so give him a break.
Treating (or giving advice on treatment) a room based on assumptions and guesses is never a good option. Why not measure and figuring out what actually is the problem? You don´t need to be an acoustician in order to do measurements and you don´t need expensive gear (the software is free and you can use almost any mic as long as you are aware of the limitations). If you do some measurements and also provide us with detailed information of your room, we will answer specific questions (assuming the ones who asks knows what they want in terms of room response and I understand if this can be a tad tricky to decide on); again and again and again
Note: important parts bolded by me.
IOW, that entire paragraph is very important. Giving you instructions on how to treat your room without knowing the exact problem is likely to give you different acoustic problems you didn't have before. There's a lot you can get wrong. It's not just "throw up some panels and you're good". First reflections are easy enough, but other than that there's a lot of different tricks that pertain to your specific room. That's why there's so many threads where someone posts, and ten people in a row ask for the size of the room, freq response, waterfall, etc..
An airgap can significantly increase performance in a cloud. The thing about angling it is that, you usually get better absorption when you have a larger air gap. We would rather just have the whole thing at the lowest possible point. If you can only go so low on one side of the room, then yes, an angled air gap would help. Even down to 125hz Owens Corning 703 has amazing performance with a 16" air gap, but obviously most of us can't afford that much space. Use as much space as you can, IMO.
If I suddenly decided to build my own car, I wouldn’t start to ask question about what parts to buy without first deciding on what type of car I want to build … right? And once decided; I wouldn’t expect it to be easy and I hopefully would understand that I need to do a lot of reading before I begin building. Now obviously I wouldn’t build my own car, I would just buy one from someone who knows what they are doing, but I do understand if some people want´s to DIY but I also think that most of them understands that in order to reach good results, you actually need to read up a little. I don´t have time to get into the details of ever members specific room and the acoustic problems within, but I can at least provide some pointers where to start. If you don´t like them; don’t read them.
If I suddenly decided to build my own car, I wouldn’t start to ask question about what parts to buy without first deciding on what type of car I want to build … right? And once decided; I wouldn’t expect it to be easy and I hopefully would understand that I need to do a lot of reading before I begin building. Now obviously I wouldn’t build my own car, I would just buy one from someone who knows what they are doing, but I do understand if some people want´s to DIY but I also think that most of them understands that in order to reach good results, you actually need to read up a little. I don´t have time to get into the details of ever members specific room and the acoustic problems within, but I can at least provide some pointers where to start. If you don´t like them; don’t read them.
/Jens
Eh, point taken - and I'm on your same page too - but I just understand that feeling of every room is different, every situation is different, every material is different, and every reflection is different; its just hard to know which acoustic principals apply to every situation, and which don't. But I digress, I respect your position.
Measure what? I hear bass problems, I know they are there, why the hell do I need to measure? What's the point? And what do I even need to measure my room? I don't want to spend more money than I set off to spend on acoustics on microphones!
So you´re seriously suggesting that we start to treat our patient without knowing what’s wrong and what parts are related to the issues? Most people into this stuff has at least one microphone available and it´s a hell of a lot better to measure with a less than ideal mic than to not measure at all, s long one is aware of the possible limitations. Even if terrible mic, you´ll still be able to identify problematic modal frequencies and in order to treat them properly, you need to know what areas are involved. REW is free so the cost for anyone who wants to get going is often zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira
I'm already in a comfortable position in my room. I don't really want to move my entire set up to maybe get a 1db boost at 100hz.
You don´t have to ... but sometimes there are options, and why not take advantage of them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira
Ok what the hell is modal and whats an SBIR? Hallelujah, 10 more pages of s*** I'm not going to read.
You´re only helping me prove my point. The person prepared to DIY will hopefully understand that they need to get informed on the topic first, and if you’re unfamiliar with a term commonly used, you´ll want to look it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira
Bass absorbing techniques? What do these traps get trained in some sort of bass kung fu? Pressure vs. velocity, etc is like saying "jelly, jam, etc" to someone who speaks French. Maybe they'll get the etc part, but have no idea what jam and jelly are, spoken in English.
Same as above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira
Kinda hard to mis understand that if you've done any reading, so I can't give you any crap there.
Jens, you got me all wrong - I was responding in a manner which someone who has no idea on acoustic terms (edit: in other words, myself when I first jumped in the acoustics section) would read it and think to themselves. I don't believe any of that at all. Sorry I wasn't more clear, haha.
I was just giving examples of something you could be more clear on, as something as simple as "Measure your room" could freak someone out. Wow, I bet you were convinced I was an idiot for a few minutes there...
Eh, point taken - and I'm on your same page too - but I just understand that feeling of every room is different, every situation is different, every material is different, and every reflection is different; its just hard to know which acoustic principals apply to every situation, and which don't. But I digress, I respect your position.
I understand that acoustics is a tricky subject in many ways, but instead of just giving in and offer easy (and possibly incorrect) advice, I choose to try and help people in the right direction. Again, I don´t have time to consult everyone for free and it would also be close to impossible since I normally want to do measurements and analyzes on site before coming to conclusions on treatment options. Heck, I would probably sell a lot more diffusers if I didn’t tell every potential costumer that they first need to understand that a diffuser (or any other treatment option) might not do what they expect it to do for their room, and that they first should gain a little understanding of control room acoustics before buying my (or any) products, if they want good results. I will never tell anyone that any room will benefit from diffusers but that would naturally be a lot easier and less time-consuming.
Jens, you got me all wrong - I was responding in a manner which someone who has no idea on acoustic terms would read it and think to themselves. I don't believe any of that at all. Sorry I wasn't more clear, haha.
I was just giving examples of something you could be more clear on, as something as simple as "Measure your room" could freak someone out. Wow, I bet you were convinced I was an idiot for a few minutes there...
ok, sorry
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira
Wow, I bet you were convinced I was an idiot for a few minutes there...
Heck, I would probably sell a lot more diffusers if I
were able to ship them to the US!
But really, have you ever thought about finding a friend in the US who could store these for you so you could ship a couple pallets to all at once to get cheaper shipping costs, and then have them take care of shipping for you? I, along with others I'm sure would love to use your Optiffuser, but shipment isn't very practical :/
But really, have you ever thought about finding a friend in the US who could store these for you so you could ship a couple pallets to all at once to get cheaper shipping costs, and then have them take care of shipping for you? I, along with others I'm sure would love to use your Optiffuser, but shipment isn't very practical :/
I have thought of some options but currently, the lack of time is the big issue.
but we already knew that by the tone of your commentary.
i have stage rally experience - you don't see me complaining about having to become a "mechanic" in order to understand vehicle dynamics. you choose your own level of involvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonycamp
Look for photos of studios, then emulate,
this is by far the most destructive recommendation within this thread.
.... but I also think that most of them understands that in order to reach good results, you actually need to read up a little.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just after good ENOUGH results. The general advice that's given here - treat the corners, put up a cloud, do something at first reflection points and the back wall, try moving your monitors around - will probably get most of us 90% of the way there most of the time.
If I suddenly decided to build my own car, I wouldn’t start to ask question about what parts to buy without first deciding on what type of car I want to build … right? And once decided; I wouldn’t expect it to be easy and I hopefully would understand that I need to do a lot of reading before I begin building. Now obviously I wouldn’t build my own car, I would just buy one from someone who knows what they are doing, but I do understand if some people want´s to DIY but I also think that most of them understands that in order to reach good results, you actually need to read up a little. I don´t have time to get into the details of ever members specific room and the acoustic problems within, but I can at least provide some pointers where to start. If you don´t like them; don’t read them.
/Jens
blah blah blah, most of us are not trying to build a massaratti(oceanway), we're more building a soap box derby car(spare bedroom studio) A simple chassis with 4 wheels and a seat, in which you have suggested none of the aforementioned. Your flippant one line posts are vapidly condescending. If ur going to bother posting up, try to be respectful to the op, and helpful in an un obvious way, or simply don't bother
blah blah blah, most of us are not trying to build a massaratti(oceanway), we're more building a soap box derby car(spare bedroom studio) A simple chassis with 4 wheels and a seat, in which you have suggested none of the aforementioned. Your flippant one line posts are vapidly condescending. If ur going to bother posting up, try to be respectful to the op, and helpful in an un obvious way, or simply don't bother
what more do you need? you should really take more of your own advice and "find photos of studios and emulate them". google image search is your friend - you should have all of the 'ideas' you need! take care!
blah blah blah, most of us are not trying to build a massaratti(oceanway), we're more building a soap box derby car(spare bedroom studio) A simple chassis with 4 wheels and a seat, in which you have suggested none of the aforementioned. Your flippant one line posts are vapidly condescending. If ur going to bother posting up, try to be respectful to the op, and helpful in an un obvious way, or simply don't bother
I have sometimes thought about leaving GS, and if this is the general opinion, I guess the decision is fairly easy to make …
If you go to the doctor with a pain in your chest, what would you want him to do:
1. Treating you for the most common disease based only on the symptoms you´ve provided.
2. Examine you in order to figure out what the actual cause of your condition is and treat you based on this information.
Treating (or giving advice on treatment) a room based on assumptions and guesses is never a good option. Why not measure and figuring out what actually is the problem? You don´t need to be an acoustician in order to do measurements and you don´t need expensive gear (the software is free and you can use almost any mic as long as you are aware of the limitations). If you do some measurements and also provide us with detailed information of your room, we will answer specific questions (assuming the ones who asks knows what they want in terms of room response and I understand if this can be a tad tricky to decide on); again and again and again …
Or am I wrong ... perhaps no one appreciates our contribution here?
Again, really? You go to the doctor, the questions are asked of the symptoms ur suffering, then you are usually provided a SIMPLE remedy. 9 times out of ten that remedy works! The doctor doesn't say go to medical school and become a doctor. If your looking to get paid, you should just post this, "consult a paid professional", with your info under the post. Then again, the reason this site exists, is to provide info, and help the community involved progress with their passion. Which is generally, the creation and recording of music, not to be bogged down by analysis paralysis. A good general assumption, is that all the folks bothering to be here, possess a rudimentary understanding of BASIC acoustic principles and music. If you asked me how to play some song, I'm gonna assume you have a basic understanding of music by virtue of the fact u asked. Then I'm going to sing la la blah blah la, and hopefully you'll make sense of my flat/sharp rendition of the song at hand. I'm certainly not gonna flippantly tell you to go practice your scales!
That being said, with all the apparent "astro physical" variables, why do companies like realtraps(great company and guys) make one sized qrd's??? You guys are trying to make money, and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't guise your 3 word response posts as trying to be helpful, it's total bs and I'm calling u on it. THERE ARE GENERAL RULES TO ABSORBING, TRAPPING AND DIFFUSING THAT CAN BE STATED SIMPLY, you guys, just aren't willing to state them
Closed 
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
. THERE ARE GENERAL RULES TO ABSORBING, TRAPPING AND DIFFUSING THAT CAN BE STATED SIMPLY, you guys, just aren't willing to state them
