How much STC do I need to soundproof a full rock band?

[avare]

Originally Posted by demetrisag

Ok guys I want to keep it as simple as possible to get a straight forward number.

I want to build a recording room which I will also use as a practice place for rock bands practice. The dimensions are 3,3x4x2,3.

Let's just say there is the drummer playing his drums, the electric guitarist and bassist pluck in their amplifiers, a keyboard and a voice connected on a PA system inside the recording room.

I want to soundproof in order not to annoy my neighbour who is about 10 meters away from me.

We need more information. Is the neighbour 10 metres distant in the same building? Outside in the country? Right beside a highway? What hours of operation? Potentailly overriding anything I wrote above, are there laws about noise in your part of the world? Note there is a reason that seasoned posters include their geographic area in their profile. Why is there a PA system in the recording studio?

Andre

[MAzevedo]

The PA system is for the singer during rehearsal, I'd assume.

Something to keep in mind is that STC ratings are based on a speech-spectrum source, and for things with a lot of bass energy (like a rock band) looking at STC ratings will substantially overestimate how effective a sound barrier will be. You need detailed test data for whatever constructions you end up using that give 1/3 octave TL (transmission loss) to plan this sort of thing.

But, all of Andre's questions are appropriate. Give us some more information and you'll get much more useful answers.

[demetrisag]

The neighbour is about 10 meters away across the street, its another building,
its in the city, not a very crowded neighborhood,

there are times during the summer where we are not allowed loud noise during 1:00-3:00 noon.

No highway close to me or even road with traffic.

Hours of practicing could be from 10 am to 22pm


The pa system is for the singer so he can sing and be heard in all those instruments

[kasmira]

Originally Posted by avare

Why is there a PA system in the recording studio?

Andre

Originally Posted by demetrisag

which I will also use as a practice place for rock bands practice

Sorry, Andre - but I had to. First time I've ever seen you overlook something in the OP

[MAzevedo]

You should be sure to check where the noise needs to be measured in your city, in many places the noise limit is measured at your property line, not at your neighbor's building. So, the last two questions here are: how loud are your practices, and how loud can it be outside? If you know those two things (preferably in 1/3 octave bands), subtract the two and that will give you the TL you need, though to be safe you should plan on at least 5 dB and preferably more of isolation beyond the minimum you think you'll need.

[demetrisag]

heck!! you are all so scientific!! Please cant you keep it a little more simple? I'm gonna have a rock band inside playing their shit out, jumping up and down, getting excited, screaming on the microphones and all that!! but outside I want it to be quite enough so I wont annoy at least my neighbour who is about 10-15 meters away on a different building sitting on his veranta couch!!

For the sake of the argument would STC 65, would be good enough?

Let's just say if I do more than I need, it wont be a problem!

[MAzevedo]

We are all scientific because we are scientists. ^_^

As I mentioned above, STC doesn't describe isolation from bass-heavy sound well. Your STC 65 wall might only offer 30 dB of isolation at kick-drum frequencies, and your neighbor will probably still hear it.

Getting a rock band completely inaudible will require serious isolation, as in heavy double walls, isolated floor and ceiling, and the whole thing air-tight. So, the question becomes: how loud can it be outside? If you are going to spend the money on building this room out, you should at least get some sound level measurements of a band rehearsal and the background noise in your neighborhood. If you are really seriously math-adverse, it might be worth paying an acoustical consultant to figure out exactly what you need.

I wish I could give you a simple answer, but I respect your desire to not intrude on your neighbor and don't want to tell you to do something and then not get the results you want.

[kasmira]

If acoustics were simple; acousticians would not have a job, every home studio would sound amazing, and you would hear no noise outside of anyone's house.

[gullfo]

the unscientific way is to get yourself 400-500K (whatever your currency is) and build a proper dual layered bunker from scratch including foundation. barring that, more explicit details on the existing structure are needed, and you will need to get a sound level meter or other calibrated sound level device and make some measurements to determine how much isolation you need to add. so take your PA and set it up in the room and crank it to 120db @ 1m using a sine sweep, pink noise, and drum & bass music and measure around the perimeter of the building - doors, windows, roof, and around the property.
use A weighted setting and double check using C weighted. this provides a view of the most commonly used legal assessment as well as a more flat assessment where LF level while not necessarily heard are loud enough to shake things (which can be just as much of a problem).
based on your criteria of extremely loud and screaming, you probably need something equiv to STC90 to make this manageable. perhaps another option is to do what professionals do - use small amps (say 10W) and damped drums to rehearse at moderate levels where the singer only needs a small monitoring system. then in concert/shows, use the same equipment and pump it through a 50K watt PA... the 10W amps will scream with wonderful overload distortion and the 50K watts will appease the fans' need for volume.

[Sebg]

If a rock band is going hell for leather, then there could very well be 120dB of sound at the 63Hz octave band. Depending on how quiet your neighbourhood is, say that the 63Hz band needs to be no more than 30dBA at your neighbour's, 10m away from the building. That is 56dB un-A-weighted. A very rough calc, taking into account a guess of the surface area of the exterior of your building etc etc gives a required transmission loss of 45dB at the 63Hz 1/1-octave frequency band.

Since STC does not extend as far down as the 63Hz band, then STC is not really relevant. However, for arguments sake, if it is a heavy double skin wall with a large airspace such as might be used in a cinema or pro studio, then a wall that does about STC 75 should be capable of 45dB Transmission Loss at 63Hz. We are talking a wall that is 400-500mm thick overall.

Now, that 45dB TL at 63Hz is required for the glazing, the doors, the air vents and the roof-ceiling as well.

Given that you are not confident to do these calcs and baulked at the little bit of math involved, do you really think you can build an STC 75 bunker off your own bat? Maybe you live in a neighbourhood that is noisier than you think and maybe less construction is required. Maybe more. I don't think you can get all the DIY info off a public forum; you probably need to consult an experienced professional. But if you are really serious then you will heed the earlier advice and start to measure sound levels and QUANTIFY what is required. Once you know quantitatively what is required then ppl on here will help you further.

[Rod Gervais]

To begin here - aside from the points made by my esteemed colleagues - intelligent, mature, musicians do not just play "their shit out, jumping up and down, getting excited, screaming on the microphones and all that!!" regardless of the genre of the music they're playing.

They play the same music at very different levels depending on the venue they are playing in.

Band practice is not supposed to be about making noise - it's supposed to be about learning the nuances of the songs a band wants to play.

In order to do that they have to be able to clearly hear everything going on - which (especially in small rooms) is problematic at very high volumes. The ear just is not made to handle that.

I am a drummer - and regardless of the genre of music I play in my band's practice space - I can always control my levels - and still always get the point of the music across.

Now, all of that having been said - everyone here is spot on - you can't just get frustrated at the fact that you're not getting (what you consider) to be a straightforward answer to your question.

There is no straightforward answer - everything in acoustic isolation is always dependent on everything else.

It begins with what the actual sound levels are you need to isolate - along with the frequencies involved........

It then takes understanding exactly what level of isolation (at each of those frequencies) the existing structure offers.

Knowing this - along with how these things work as a whole - gives you the information it takes to make an intelligent, informed, decision on what it takes to achieve your goal.

Of course there really is one other path you can take - and that's the path you seem hell bent on - which is get someone to just feed you bad information, and then throw money away doing something that is either going to be totally over the top on what you needed to do to get the job done (Glenn's suggestion comes to mind) or is going to (after you throw away a ton of good money) never get the job done - which will put you out a whole lot of cash yet bring you no closer to what you wanted in the first place.

If you don't want to invest any energy in finding out what you really need - then we really can't offer you any help.

When it comes to isolation there are no magic beans - it takes science.

Rod

[avare]

thank you Alexander and Matt. You are both correct in that I missed the rehearsal use.

As one who does not always get things right the first time, I have never tried sky diving.

Going once, going twice,
Andre

[andrebrito]

I would not even consider making a project 10 m away from a neighbour...

STC is crap to me and where I live the difference between the noise inside the neighbour's room with and without a band playing can't exceed 5 dB, maybe in the US it is different but in Europe laws against noise are very demanding

Rock band at 100 Hz - easily 110 dB
Attenuation - let's suppose 40 db at low freq

Out of the door - 70 dB

Geometric attenuation - 20 db
Sound facade - another 5 dB at low freq

Noise inside house with band playing - 45 dB
Noise without band at 3 am - 25 db

Difference: 20 dB...

[demetrisag]

Even though some of you treated me like an idiot you actually gave me the answer I was looking at the first place. Could be done in a better way but ok. Thanks anyway, usefull answers there.

Though I was wondering any ideas how do you dump the drums? and sorry for not knowing many things

*Sebg hell of an answer! My walls will actually be around 385mm double metal stull with 100mm rock wool on each stud and triple layer drywall on each side

[avare]

Originally Posted by demetrisag

Even though some of you treated me like an idiot you actually gave me the answer I was looking at the first place. Could be done in a better way but ok. Thanks anyway, usefull answers there.

Though I was wondering any ideas how do you dump the drums? and sorry for not knowing many things

*Sebg hell of an answer! My walls will actually be 360mm, double metal stull with 100mm rock wool on each stud and triple layer drywall on each side

I hope that you think of me as one of the respectful ones. The wall construction that you described will have a Transmission Loss (TL) of around 30 dB at 63 Hz. Sebg's post used 45 dB, if that is what you are using as a design reference. See pdf pages around 352 in IR 761 for test data on similar wall constructions.

Andre

[demetrisag]

Originally Posted by avare

I hope that you think of me as one of the respectful ones. The wall construction that you described will have a Transmission Loss (TL) of around 30 dB at 63 Hz. Sebg's post used 45 dB, if that is what you are using as a design reference. See pdf pages around 352 in IR 761 for test data on similar wall constructions.

Andre

Thanks Andre, and really apreciate the link with the guide too

[demetrisag]

One more question since you all moved my quriosity with the bass, when I finish with the soundproof after that I inted to fill the corners with studio tips super chunk bass traps from top to bottom all 4 of them. 24inch front side with 75kg/m3 rockwool

Now I know this is for acoustical treatment but will this help with bass soundproofing at all?

[DanDan]

heck!! you are all so scientific!! Please cant you keep it a little more simple?

Sure. Your chances of success are about equal to the survival rate of snowballs in hell.

SuperChunks for Soundproofing....
About as useful as a chocolate fireguard.


eDrums and Amp simulators and headphones are superb and affordable.
And guaranteed to work.
Sure as eggs.

DD

[demetrisag]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Sure. Your chances of success are about equal to the survival rate of snowballs in hell.

SuperChunks for Soundproofing....
About as useful as a chocolate fireguard.


eDrums and Amp simulators and headphones are superb and affordable.
And guaranteed to work.
Sure as eggs.

DD

DanDan

About superchunks I take that as a no, I was inteding to put them anyway for acoustics, was only asking of quriosity and not to soundproof with superchunks. If you could read my posts a little better you migh understand that. I intend to build a 385mm double metal stud wall for that.

In any way I got my answers I needed and also many brilliant ideas which is why I came for here.

[Sebg]

Originally Posted by demetrisag

*Sebg hell of an answer! My walls will actually be around 385mm double metal stull with 100mm rock wool on each stud and triple layer drywall on each side

As Andre has pointed out your wall construction may very well be insufficient.

Also, this couldn't possibly be your actual wall construction as drywall is not used as the exterior cladding for buildings...

[demetrisag]

Originally Posted by Sebg

As Andre has pointed out your wall construction may very well be insufficient.

Also, this couldn't possibly be your actual wall construction as drywall is not used as the exterior cladding for buildings...

the outer side would be the yellow drywall, thats how I know it from here at least which is an exterior drywall much more expensive the standard one. On the other hand I was thinking for a cement board but thats just even more expensive.

and should also mention that in this case I intend to check their levels of practicing around 90db or even less, depends on the drums. You mentioned earlier something about dampening the drums

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by demetrisag

the outer side would be the yellow drywall, thats how I know it from here at least which is an exterior drywall much more expensive the standard one. On the other hand I was thinking for a cement board but thats just even more expensive.

and should also mention that in this case I intend to check their levels of practicing around 90db or even less, depends on the drums. You mentioned earlier something about dampening the drums

I guess that your thought is to place that "yellow drywall" (it's name is DensGlass) inside of the stud bays? I say guess because you have not described how it's being used in this case.

Rod

[demetrisag]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

I guess that your thought is to place that "yellow drywall" (it's name is DensGlass) inside of the stud bays? I say guess because you have not described how it's being used in this case.

Rod

I do actually have another thread which I started describing how I intend to build it with designs in it and all but it seems it didnt get much attention so I started asking individual questions in order to slowly get where I want to be.
The located here New Soundproofed walls from scrach (deisgn and ideas) but its an old thread now with outdated designs but nevertheless you can clearly see I intend for the DensGlass to be put outside.

So lets say there are the studs the first two layers would be the standard drywall and the last which would be visible is the densglass. Of course densglass would later be covered with everything it needs to be in order to be a complete exterior wall.

[avare]

Originally Posted by demetrisag

Of course densglass would later be covered with everything it needs to be in order to be a complete exterior wall.

??? Depending on how you do the outside, you will make TL WORSE! Odds are, without knowing exactly how to do it right, you will make it worse!

Please include at least your geographic region in your profile, so that we may help you better.

Andre