placement of nearfields

[Jens Eklund]

Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson

The funny thing is that if you so much as hint at something in the way of a thumb-rule over at the sound engineer related forums, you get scolded BIG TIME! That's an art! You can't just apply "Mastering chain preset Nr 3" and then relay the material to the manufacturing plant (without even listening to/verifying the result). Yet when it comes to acoustics people are perfectly happy to do so, as if there are less variables in acoustic engineering, or as if they for some reason are of lesser importance. One could argue the opposite... The clients of an acoustician are generally very strict about their sound, whereas the music consumer generally will listen to the engineers artistic achievements through his new Iphone!

As soon as things get complicated and requires some reading to fully understand, people get lazy, and that’s ok as long they either accept the far from perfect results, or the fact that they need to pay an acoustician in order to reach perfection.

[BoahShit]

Originally Posted by kasmira

Cut the wood on the top shelf of the desk. Problem solved.

+1 and you keep your stands (this desk will rattle otherwise)

[localhost127]

Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson

Thumb rules can be great, but to reap the benefit of them you need to undertand the principle that lead to them. Otherwise you wont know when to apply them, when not to, or when to apply them differently - with tweaking and verification. Thumb rules should be handed out with caution and explanations on the variables involved, not as fact!

/Sören

there is already an abundance of "acoustic forums" of which insist on such blind rules of thumb. let's not add one more to the list

[SörenHjalmarsson]

Originally Posted by localhost127

there is already an abundance of "acoustic forums" of which insist on such blind rules of thumb. let's not add one more to the list

I am of the same opinion local... However it is also important to recognize that there are different OP's out there and that we need to aid them all according to their individual goals and expectations - and refrain from pestering them with scientific information if they don't want or need it.

I strongly believe that they all should at least be offered the "red pill" though... If they then choose the "blue pill path," they do so with a full understanding of their compromises. I.e. the OP has been offered the chance to set the bar himself and we must then aid him according to his determined (sometimes unspecified) goal.


--sören

[darkbuddha]

I find all this talk of the "red pill" and "blue pill" quite humorous, since it actually seems to undermine the value of both; as if choosing one or the other is the equivalent of choosing between enlightenment and ignorance, neither of which is necessarily true. Both offer benefits that are at least a step in the right general direction, though one or the other may be a better and/or more beneficial path towards the same goal. Those that take the red pill should not completely discount the potential benefit of taking the blue pill for someone else, if the alternative is to not take either pill. And vice versa. The wisdom and benefits of the red pill may be completely lost on someone that can only manage to swallow the blue pill, but I'd rather (and did) swallow the blue pill than not. Know what I mean?

[SörenHjalmarsson]

That's kind of what i meant db, although you said it better that i.

Anyway, i suggest that we leave all discussions regarding pedagogics aside for now and proceed, our OP might still have questions... It is (after all) not very good praxis to derail his thread in this manner.

[John Suitcase]

Apologies for taking this discussion off the rails!

Thumb Rules are generally useful precisely because they work. They are a shortcut, of course. But the question you posed about red pills and blue pills is rephrased this way 'Do you want to mix, or do you want to learn acoustics?' For a person interested in making music, getting things workable quickly is the goal.

You don't need to understand circuit flow to choose a compressor (though there are those of us who do and find it useful, to the point that we find it hard to believe someone could be an audio engineer without some grasp of electronic theory.) But of course, there are such engineers.

I like learning about acoustics, but the end goal should reign supreme, of course!

[DanDan]

I find all this talk of the "red pill" and "blue pill" quite humorous, since it actually seems to undermine the value of both; as if choosing one or the other is the equivalent of choosing between enlightenment and ignorance, neither of which is necessarily true. Both offer benefits that are at least a step in the right general direction, though one or the other may be a better and/or more beneficial path towards the same goal. Those that take the red pill should not completely discount the potential benefit of taking the blue pill for someone else, if the alternative is to not take either pill. And vice versa. The wisdom and benefits of the red pill may be completely lost on someone that can only manage to swallow the blue pill, but I'd rather (and did) swallow the blue pill than not. Know what I mean?

One could hardly state it better. However, the views have been well stated and repeated at this stage. I believe further rehearsal would be bad.
Jens, localhost, Soren, gathered in the one thread....what could possibly go wrong.

DD

[localhost127]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

Thumb Rules are generally useful precisely because they work. They are a shortcut, of course. But the question you posed about red pills and blue pills is rephrased this way 'Do you want to mix, or do you want to learn acoustics?' For a person interested in making music, getting things workable quickly is the goal.

says who? who are you to make the decision on what is best for the forum or other novices? and please detail some information on these "thumb rules" and how you are arriving at your conclusion that "they work". a global statement i do not agree with.

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

You don't need to understand circuit flow to choose a compressor (though there are those of us who do and find it useful, to the point that we find it hard to believe someone could be an audio engineer without some grasp of electronic theory.) But of course, there are such engineers.

I like learning about acoustics, but the end goal should reign supreme, of course!

the amount of effort you've put forth in this thread regarding semantics on "rules of thumb" is astounding! if only this level of effort of trying to persuade us that "rules of thumb" are sufficient for studio design was put forth towards the learning of acoustical behavior! http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7519153-post25.html

[BriHar]

Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson

Recently though, a friend of mine went in for surgery of her left foot, but they ended up 'fixing' her right one instead... they must have used some kind of thumb-rule there...

I think they were using the mirror technique

[JLiRD808]

What did the OP go with?

If u cut the shelf and leave em in the corners on stands, wont the low-end build up be ridiculous?

I would consider putting em on the shelf and in fact EXTEND the shelf on both sides via some light wood working to get ur dual LCD monitors up. Then I would either raise the chair or point the monitors down. If u point the monitors down I would get some 703/705 or even some auralex and make a little mixing pad or shield (~1'x4') to lay across ur desks surface to prevent early reflections WHILE MIXING. This "shield" could easily be tossed aside to track, use ur MIDI keyboard, etc. Maybe get some Mopads too to drop under ur monitors to prevent the desk from resonating (the mopads will let u tilt the monitors down too).

Lol u could always TILT ur desk and find ways to keep things from sliding off LOL.

Just my $.02

[kasmira]

Originally Posted by JLiRD808

If u cut the shelf and leave em in the corners on stands, wont the low-end build up be ridiculous?

Not necessarily. It may, but there is evidence which suggests that the frequency of SBIR shifts upwards the closer the speaker gets to walls (making it easier to treat) - of course this only solves the SBIR on two of the 6 boundaries in a room, though. I asked in another thread but I don't remember which thread anymore - Would this mean that placing speakers in a tri-corner would get rid of half the possible BIR? And even then, the other three walls causing BIR would be far enough away to probably not even affect the sound too much, right?

Originally Posted by JLiRD808

Lol u could always TILT ur desk and find ways to keep things from sliding off LOL.

That is actually suggested very often, especially in desk build threads. Nothing major of course, but the inclines are (imo) more comfortable, look nice, and can help reduce desk comb filtering.

[DanDan]

While it is obviously true that all boundaries must contribute BIR, in reality some can be easily singled out and treated.

When a speaker is very close to a wall, an absorbent panel can almost entirely remove the null because of it's fairly high frequency.
This is shown pretty vividly here. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7701446-post364.html
Later tests in that thread strongly point to the back wall as most prolific source of nulls, despite the considerable distance.

Bass will be enhanced by proximity to the front wall, but this is often welcome and/or can be tweaked by the controls on active monitors or by a gentle shelf eq.

DD

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by DanDan

While it is obviously true that all boundaries must contribute BIR, in reality some can be easily singled out and treated.

When a speaker is very close to a wall, an absorbent panel can almost entirely remove the null because of it's fairly high frequency.
This is shown pretty vividly here. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7701446-post364.html
Later tests in that thread strongly point to the back wall as most prolific source of nulls, despite the considerable distance.

Bass will be enhanced by proximity to the wall, but this is often welcome and/or can be tweaked by the controls on active monitors or by a gentle shelf eq.

DD

I do agree with you but also keep in mind that what might be true in one room may not be true in another. Putting the speakers close to the wall might be fine in a really small room (mostly to stay out of the middle) but in some rooms, I have found, you can get a better over all response not being right up against the wall. Once I again I am not disagreeing with you but want to point that out.

[localhost127]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I do agree with you but also keep in mind that what might be true in one room may not be true in another.

+1
in acoustics, one particular problem solved by one particular solution in one particular acoustical space does not solidify a global solution for all spaces!

[DanDan]

One of the better Rules of Thumb which is always true, says that nothing is always true everywhere :-)

No doubt Glenn, I didn't intend to suggest a goto speaker position.
I hope it doesn't read like that does it?

The phenomenon is fact that I have observed in my own work, i.e. it often does test best over time in quite a few rooms. Enough to take note of anyway. I could guess perhaps 50%, so I do think that is kinda worth sharing. EU rooms would probably be broadly speaking, smaller, and involve more concrete, but I haven't found any pattern to it in terms of room size or wall materials. On a few occasions I have found best response with speakers partly flush, at the sides of a protruding fireplace, or the opposite, inside a Bay Window. Ethan and I call this type of thing Pseudo Soffit.

It might be worth noting where the speakers in my White Room are.
Well away from the Front Wall. They Measure pretty badly there, but I prefer the airy sound.


DD

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by DanDan

One of the better Rules of Thumb which is always true, says that nothing is always true everywhere :-)

No doubt Glenn, I didn't intend to suggest a goto speaker position.
I hope it doesn't read like that does it?

The phenomenon is fact that I have observed in my own work, i.e. it often does test best over time in quite a few rooms. Enough to take note of anyway. I could guess perhaps 50%, so I do think that is kinda worth sharing. EU rooms would probably be broadly speaking, smaller, and involve more concrete, but I haven't found any pattern to it in terms of room size or wall materials. On a few occasions I have found best response with speakers partly flush, at the sides of a protruding fireplace, or the opposite, inside a Bay Window. Ethan and I call this type of thing Pseudo Soffit.

It might be worth noting where the speakers in my White Room are.
Well away from the Front Wall. They Measure pretty badly there, but I prefer the airy sound.


DD

50%??? mmmmmmm well not totally sure that is the case for me, but if most of your rooms are under 12 feet long then..... The way I approach it is the degree of harm. If moving the speakers close (which may move the listening spot, in a lot of cases) fixes one problem but creates problems that are hard to fix (big dips or spikes below 60hz) then I would rethink the solution.
There really is no wrong or right as there is not "rule".

[DanDan]

Yes 50%, hard not to notice eh? Maybe it's just a coincidence that it has worked so noticeably in the last few rooms. The last room was 5.5M long.
One room, 14'x14'x10' the speakers ended up flush to a fireplace and the best measured listening spot was pretty much room centre.
An open mind seems to be the only rule of thumb worth sticking to.
DD

[Glenn Kuras]

An open mind seems to be the only rule of thumb worth sticking to.

[BriHar]

... But not so wide open that your brain falls out