Acoustic panels necessary? with pics

[edvedder]

I've just moved my studio into my living room and was wondering if I need acoustic panels behind my monitors. The room is about 14.5 feet, from the front wall (behind monitors) to the back wall.. I've see lots of pics of studios and it seems like some people have them and other dont..? Thanks for your help

[DanDan]

If you have flutter echo between the front wall and the back, then kill it with HF absorbing panels, on either wall, no need to do both.
Many people seem to automatically place traps behind the speakers, perhaps in order to diminish the null caused by LF reflection from the Front Wall. FWBIR I like to call that one. I have never seen regular sized traps have any effect there. Perhaps if you treated all the boundaries immediately closest to the speaker it would have an effect, but in my experience, not this one. If the Front Wall treatement were a foot thick and perhaps had the speakers sunk into it, I could imagine great benefits.

RealTraps - Front Wall Absorption
DD

[edvedder]

Originally Posted by DanDan

If you have flutter echo between the front wall and the back, then kill it with HF absorbing panels, on either wall, no need to do both.
Many people seem to automatically place traps behind the speakers, perhaps in order to diminish the null caused by LF reflection from the Front Wall. FWBIR I like to call that one. I have never seen regular sized traps have any effect there. Perhaps if you treated all the boundaries immediately closest to the speaker it would have an effect, but in my experience, not this one. If the Front Wall treatement were a foot thick and perhaps had the speakers sunk into it, I could imagine great benefits.

RealTraps - Front Wall Absorption
DD

Thanks for your help.. When you say "traps", do you mean my bass traps pictured in the corner? I do have a sub woofer as well under the desk.. Wouldn't the bass traps help to control the bass in the room?

I attached a picture because I want to know if you think I need an acoustic panel on that little side wall?

[DanDan]

Those bass traps do useful work in the corner. I reckon they would do an awful lot more if they were straddled across the corner diagonally, and stacked floor to ceiling.

I see lots of bare walls in your pictures. I expect you will have to treat for flutter echo. Tapestries and such can help, but do look at the enormous number of traps needed to tame a typical room. Say 12-20?
DD

[darkbuddha]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I see lots of bare walls in your pictures. I expect you will have to treat for flutter echo. Tapestries and such can help, but do look at the enormous number of traps needed to tame a typical room. Say 12-20?

12-20?!?!!! I guess I over-did it a bit... I've got 28 treatment elements (bass traps, broadband absorbers, and diffusors) in my 13x13.5' room. But yeah, a bit of treatment would probably be good in that space.

My only other comment is that it's a shame you can't move the production/mix desk to the center of that wall for the sake of symmetry. I've read a number of AES and NARAS papers now that have all put significant importance on symmetry for the mix position.

[edvedder]

ok So I was able to use one single bass trap diagonally but wasn't able to stack the second bass trap.. Is that better than two bass traps running flush against the walls? Where would be an ideal place for the second bass trap? Its a fairly open room behind the mix position.. It goes about 15 feet back..

I also took the recommendation of having the mixing desk more centered in the room to give more symmetry...

[darkbuddha]

Can you hang the traps (like by putting a hook or two in the wall)? If so, then I'd hang one straddling each front corner about 24" off the floor by putting a single (or a couple) hooks as close to the corner as possible and hang them using good quality picture hanging wire. If you can't hang them, even standing them up in each corner would be good. If you do some reading/research, straddle panels are very effective for controlling bass ringing and response.

BTW, have you done something as simple as the "clap" test? As in sitting in your mix location and clapping your hands once loudly and listening for the "reverb", which will more likely be flutter echo (not good!). Even some basic panels and/or foam can usually solve that stuff pretty easily. But if you're getting at all serious about the quality of the work you do and the quality of the sound in the space, it's probably time to do all the requisite reading & research. A good treatment plan can make a huge difference in a room.

[DanDan]

+1 Clapping is excellent for revealing flutter.
I differ slightly from buddha on the wire thing.
Mid wall would be good if you are trying to tame HF bouncing around at listener height, in addition to LF absorption.
However, on the floor or at the ceiling are TRI corners. Bass Traps should be even more effective there.
Four traps is a small amount. I would be inclined to place one in each corner on the floor.


DD

[edvedder]

Hang the bass traps? haha mine were cheap to make and thus weigh about 60-70lbs. each.. wont be hanging those..and I only have two of em, so I need to be strategic as to where I place them.. I need to make a few more, I just don't know how much I need for the room I'm in, so I did a pan shot of the space I'm working with. The layout isn't a perfect enclose rectangular room. It opens half way back on one side that leads into the kitchen

I have 4 panels at them moment. I'm putting one on the wall to the right of the mix position.. and maybe one at the back wall?

[darkbuddha]

I think I'd focus on the front side of the room mainly initially. I have no idea of what to recommend for the back half.

[DanDan]

I always say, four traps minimum to start. Then double it.
Try the four corners and take a look at the Waterfall 30-300Hz.
With luck you might see improvement in the bass boom.
Then move on to a Cloud, vital, and Side Reflection absorbers.
Use Duvets on boom mic stands for the short term.
DD

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I always say, four traps minimum to start. Then double it.
Try the four corners and take a look at the Waterfall 30-300Hz.
With luck you might see improvement in the bass boom.
Then move on to a Cloud, vital, and Side Reflection absorbers.
Use Duvets on boom mic stands for the short term.
DD

Agreed, generally speaking 4 is the minimum straddling corners and 8 is going to get you pretty far. Depends on the room and how they are made though.
Need advice on waterfall!

[edvedder]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Agreed, generally speaking 4 is the minimum straddling corners and 8 is going to get you pretty far. Depends on the room and how they are made though.
Need advice on waterfall!

When you say "straddling", you mean diagonal, correct? Also, is it better to go floor to ceiling? I really only have two corners in the room (front wall).. The back wall is pretty far back and opens to the kitchen on one side and the other side of the back wall corner is my door to my balcony and window..

I've really been trying to mix without my sub woofer, so the bass isn't too boomy...

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by edvedder

When you say "straddling", you mean diagonal, correct? Also, is it better to go floor to ceiling? I really only have two corners in the room (front wall).. The back wall is pretty far back and opens to the kitchen on one side and the other side of the back wall corner is my door to my balcony and window..

I've really been trying to mix without my sub woofer, so the bass isn't too boomy...

Straddling the corner as you going across to cut off the corner. The more panels you straddle the better so yes go floor to ceiling.

[edvedder]

Ok Thanks! Would it make sense to treat my front wall as well?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by edvedder

Ok Thanks! Would it make sense to treat my front wall as well?

The front corners, yes. The only time you treat the front wall with thick absorption is if you have a SBIR problem coming from the front wall. Thin absorption will do little to nothing.
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).

[edvedder]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

The front corners, yes. The only time you treat the front wall with thick absorption is if you have a SBIR problem coming from the front wall. Thin absorption will do little to nothing.
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).

Sorry, I meant with high frequency absorption panels on the front wall...?

The back wall is about 15 feet back, so I'm not sure if panels would help there..

So the best place to put bass traps are corners.. Anywhere else I could put them as well, to tame the bass even further?

[DanDan]

There are 12 corners... you won't run out of traps.
If the back wall is not treated in the centre you may need to use a flutter killing trap there, or on the front wall.
DD

[edvedder]

Originally Posted by DanDan

There are 12 corners... you won't run out of traps.
If the back wall is not treated in the centre you may need to use a flutter killing trap there, or on the front wall.
DD

my room is a weird layout.. there's corners in the front wall but one is up against my window/blinds. The back wall is not a perfect straight wall.. It has a bit of a cutout in the middle and the corner is up against my window and porch door..

So is it better to use a panel on the back wall, dead center between the speakers?

[DanDan]

Flutter echo is easily found. Move about clapping. You will hear it and know where it is coming from. Try a trap temporarily on one of the two suspect surfaces causing the flutter. A friend is useful here. If it works, install the trap there.
DD