Detached garage recording space

[sandersd]

Greetings all. I have a 2 car detached garage I will be using as a recording space. It will only be a personal recording space that will have to coexist with the garage workspace. I cannot change the room dimensions of 21' wide by 20' deep by 7'8" high - not optimum to be sure but, there it is. I have to make the best of what I have to work with.

I had originally envisioned a full-blown recording "studio", and had a design I was happy with but, alas that didn't work out:



So to be clear this will not be a commercial or even a "project" space. I will mostly be recording myself and occasionally my wife on piano (resides in the house), my daughter on acoustic guitar and vocals (she writes her own stuff), and my son on electric (big Satriani fan).

The garage construction is 2x6 walls w/ 5/8 drywall, acoustic tile ceiling with empty attic space above. The roof is hipped on 4 sides. There is no vapor barrier under the slab so I can't put flooring in without grinding and sealing the concrete, so it will stay bare concrete, at least for now.

The space is for all practical purposes square which is bad for room modes I know, but I'll just have to treat for such. Here are pics as it exists today:

[sandersd]

It is said that a dual-purpose anything does neither well. With this in mind I'd like to hear opinions on the setup I've devised to optimize the space for recording. Here is the overall layout:



and a floor plan sans walls:


and looking front to rear:


The setup as shown is for mixing. For recording I can rearrange the gobos to suit and I have a storage room in the back I can use for amp isolation. The two front gobos have a partially reflective front and absorbent rear. The two rear gobos are absorbent and the center gobo is diffusive one side and absorbent on the back.

The ceiling will have the perimeter tiles and above the desk replaced with fabric-wrapped 703. I'm hoping these will be helpful with room modes and bass absorption. I intend to add corner traps in the two front corners but the gobos will have to suffice in the rear because of the doors. Here is a view looking up at the ceiling:



I'm also wondering if I hang a sheet of MLV behind the absorbent in the rear gobos if it would help it further reduce bass in a quantifiable amount.

When finished it'll look like this (diffuser hidden):

[sandersd]

So any observations or suggestions on how to best utilize and optimize the space to make it as neutral as possible is helpful and appreciated. I think what I've outlined is a reasonable start but once I can test I can make adjustments as required. (BTW I will not be able to test till I get a new audio interface in about two months).

One thing I'm not sure of the the effectiveness of the ceiling tile bass "traps". It seems rational but I can always add traditional ones if they prove ineffective. If anyone has tried these please share.

I guess the summary question is - has anyone tried to work in a squarish room using adjustable gobos for acoustical treatment and been able to achieve acceptable results or am I trying to milk a dead horse?

Thanks for your time. I'm looking forward to hearing comments. Best regards...

[sandersd]

Just as an aside, here's what it looked like before I rebuilt it. The only original framing is the roof. Everything else was replaced:

[sandersd]

Rearranged the cabinets to make room for corner treatment. Added corner and wall bass traps/absorbers. The desk was too big so I removed a foot - it's the perfect size now.

[Glenn Kuras]

Having hug rolling gobos like that is a pretty cool idea. I would not put any kind of wood on the front or back and when mixing put them in the corners (like you show). For the ceiling you are also on the right track. Over all you can move forward.

[jwl]

Looks cool. If it were me I'd make the movable corner traps 2' wide.... they will be nearly as effective (possibly more so... 4' wide panels may not be able to get far enough into the corners to still "count" as being "in the corner") and take up less room space when in corners.

Also, MLV will definitely add mass to the interior of your gobos, but other materials are plenty massive and much cheaper (such as plain old drywall/sheetrock).

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

Looks cool. If it were me I'd make the movable corner traps 2' wide.... they will be nearly as effective (possibly more so... 4' wide panels may not be able to get far enough into the corners to still "count" as being "in the corner") and take up less room space when in corners.

Also, MLV will definitely add mass to the interior of your gobos, but other materials are plenty massive and much cheaper (such as plain old drywall/sheetrock).

Go do a test with panels laying 4' across the corner vs 2' across the corner (floor to ceiling). You are going to notice a nice increase in absorption. So yes I would make them large. Larger is always better.

[Lex A]

Wow.....that's going to be a crazy studio man.....I wish I had the space to emulate it....

[jwl]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Go do a test with panels laying 4' across the corner vs 2' across the corner (floor to ceiling). You are going to notice a nice increase in absorption. So yes I would make them large. Larger is always better.

I didn't mean cut the surface area in half, I meant make 2 - 2' wide absorbers rather than 1 - 4' wide absorber. This will be easier to manage, and allow you to arrange them so it doesn't take up so much room space.

Obviously coverage area is important.... do I really need to specify that?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

I didn't mean cut the surface area in half, I meant make 2 - 2' wide absorbers rather than 1 - 4' wide absorber. This will be easier to manage, and allow you to arrange them so it doesn't take up so much room space.

Obviously coverage area is important.... do I really need to specify that?

No but he is making this rather large in height also. He did not talk about budget either so no reason not to make the best solution. Like I said larger (and yes covering a lot of area) will work darn well. Either will work though...

[EricF]

I like it a lot! My garage recording/mixing space makes great use of easily-moved gobos and wall-hung panels.

[sandersd]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was unsure the corner gobo would effectively attenuate the bass modes or if the pressure(?) would just flow around it. But, at the same time there are lots of examples of panels placed diagonally across corners - indeed that's the standard setup. Bass Trapping 101. Still, I live in a vacuum and I wanted to make sure I wasn't deceiving myself.

I plan on using 2" 703 FSK for the ceiling tiles with the FSK facing the room and covered with FR701. I'd rather use 705 because it's stiffer but the place I previously purchased from doesn't stock any 705 FSK. As for performance I think it's a wash since I have R30 that will be laying on top of it.

I'm also contemplating doing the whole ceiling instead of the pattern shown above. Seems like the attic space would then function as a huge bass trap and would lean towards a Newell style room. Glenn, you mentioned not putting the wood on the front panels but I thought it would prevent the room from becoming too dead - plus it looks stylish!

My biggest concern is that I was embarking on a journey with no happy ending, that there was no way I could ever get decent sound in essentially a square room. I'll continue onward. My RME Fireface UCX arrived yesterday and once I sort out the integration with Cubase I want to do a baseline test. I know as it stands the room response is very lumpy - I think that's a good description. I play a tone and walk around the room and it is almost as if there are resonating spheres floating in a sea of nulls.

After I baseline I'll add the ceiling panels and compare just for reference. I have to go easy on the spending though. My wife doesn't know how much I spent on the RME and I think it's a good idea to keep it that way. Luckily the insul isn't much and I can split up the purchase from the FR701 and it'll be less noticeable.

[sandersd]

Originally Posted by jwl

... 4' wide panels may not be able to get far enough into the corners to still "count" as being "in the corner"...

That is exactly the question I had! I've been reading so many posts on acoustic theory with waves and particles and velocity and pressure that my head swelled up like a pumpkin but without the stem at the top. Maybe someone whose head doesn't swell can explain why the sound pressure doesn't just flow around the gobo like water.

Originally Posted by jwl

Also, MLV will definitely add mass to the interior of your gobos, but other materials are plenty massive and much cheaper (such as plain old drywall/sheetrock).

My thought was to hang the MLV limp in a space (+/- 2") between the insul and the fabric similar to the Primacoustic Full Trap. I read another post here on the forum where someone built one or intended to or was just asking like I am - I can't remember now. The thought was the MLV vibrates sympathetically with the frequencies and dampens their intensity. Some of those discussions can get pretty esoteric and pedantic and all wound up in theoretic minutia. I'm not trivializing such discussions - where would the science be without it - it's just after a point my eyes glaze over and my mind begins to wander, far, far, away...

[sandersd]

Originally Posted by EricF

I like it a lot! My garage recording/mixing space makes great use of easily-moved gobos and wall-hung panels.

Love to see some pics if you'd like to share!

[sandersd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

He did not talk about budget either so no reason not to make the best solution.

My wife gets me for that all the time: "You always have to have the best..."

I learned a long time ago to buy the best tools one can afford: they do a better job, they do it safer, and they last forever. As for my budget I'm guessin' (conservatively)what I've shown shouldn't cost more than a couple grand - it's just wood, insulation, and fabric. Of course that doesn't factor in my labor.

Plus I want it to look really nice - not so much that MIX shows up and demands a photo shoot, but a comfortable, relaxing, stylish environment.

[sandersd]

Comparison:

Velocity based vs. pressure based absorbers

[Glenn Kuras]

My thought was to hang the MLV limp in a space (+/- 2") between the insul and the fabric similar to the Primacoustic Full Trap. I read another post here on the forum where someone built one or intended to or was just asking like I am - I can't remember now. The thought was the MLV vibrates sympathetically with the frequencies and dampens their intensity. Some of those discussions can get pretty esoteric and pedantic and all wound up in theoretic minutia. I'm not trivializing such discussions - where would the science be without it - it's just after a point my eyes glaze over and my mind begins to wander, far, far, away..

If you use MLV you do not want to use it in the middle but only on one side if you also want to use them as bass traps. Also I would use the 1/2 pound for it.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by sandersd

My wife gets me for that all the time: "You always have to have the best..."

I learned a long time ago to buy the best tools one can afford: they do a better job, they do it safer, and they last forever. As for my budget I'm guessin' (conservatively)what I've shown shouldn't cost more than a couple grand - it's just wood, insulation, and fabric. Of course that doesn't factor in my labor.

Plus I want it to look really nice - not so much that MIX shows up and demands a photo shoot, but a comfortable, relaxing, stylish environment.

A couple grand should be enough if you already have the tools.

[ritelec]

Looks GREAT sandersd!

How much of your life do you have tide up in this?

Hope to see you using it soon.

[sandersd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

If you use MLV you do not want to use it in the middle but only on one side if you also want to use them as bass traps. Also I would use the 1/2 pound for it.

Yes, that is my intention:

front face [fabric - 6" min wool - 1" space - MLV - 1" space - fabric] rear face

[sandersd]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Looks GREAT sandersd!

How much of your life do you have tide up in this?

Hope to see you using it soon.

Thanks. I don't live close enough to the ocean for the tide to affect me. I do have a few other projects ongoing, home maintenance and remodeling, plus I'm working overtime on a project at work, so in amongst all that I hope to have it complete by summer, but then again I'm an optimist...

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by sandersd

Thanks. I don't live close enough to the ocean for the tide to affect me

Exsqueeze me..................tied. But you "new" what I meant..................
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (knew)

an ocean view would be nice right about "know"....................................
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (now)

And...The project "rely" does look great...........good luck with it..............
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (really)

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by sandersd

Yes, that is my intention:

front face [fabric - 6" min wool - 1" space - MLV - 1" space - fabric] rear face

You do not need the space between the min wool and the MLV also no space between the MLV and the fabric. I think you are thinking of tuned traps which you are not building. You are building broadband and you want the MLV to touch the wool. Honestly though I have never spaced MLV off the fiberglass on a broad band trap so not sure what will happen.

[sandersd]

• Added lighting plan
• moved desk and speakers further from wall
• added ceiling panels near OH door
• revised ceiling plan - 703 FSK (gray) 703 UF (black, above desk)

The 703 FSK will hopefully keep it from being too dead while the 703 UF above the desk takes the place of a cloud but serves the same purpose. All the wall absorbers and gobos will be FSK faced.

Keep in mind this is a conceptual layout subject to revision based on test results. I am very pleased with the layout functionality, look and vibe. Hopefully the acoustics will be just as pleasing.

Here's the model if anyone is interested: Garage.skp

[sandersd]

OK, after spending hours reading through the help and posts on this site and the REW home site, I've taken some measurements.

[Glenn Kuras]

In REW go to file then save all measurements. Take that file, zip it and then post it here. I can then view the file on my REW.

[sandersd]

and the waterfalls:







Next step is to replace the ceiling tiles with 703 (plain and FSK as required) and build the corner traps. My next 3-day weekend is in two weeks so I plan to pick up the insulation then. In the meantime I have to source the GOM and order.

I want to retest after each addition so I can see how it changes the response. Should be interesting...

[sandersd]

3-10-2012_sandersd_GS.zip

and the latest model: Garage.zip

BTW all these measurements were made with a Audio-Technica AT4033a which has a cardioid pattern - not a measurement mic but I read it was OK to use. Also I couldn't figure out how to make the calibration file so I did it without, which I also read was OK but the SPL readings wouldn't be accurate in regards to level. And I used the latest REW 5.01 Beta 7 build 2299. The mic was placed facing forward at the listening position (38%).

Speakers are Alesis Monitor One. They're ported and about 2'-9 from the wall to the face. I plan on purchasing a pair of AE22s in the next month or so. I'm thinking it's better to take the measurements with the actual speakers I'll be using, so these measurements are just a start and for reference.

[sandersd]

OH! BTW I read this paper on Steven Klein's website titled "Time to Rethink Bass Traps"

Here is a quote I found interesting:

"Monitoring with 5” or 6” woofers in a 20’ room with 12’ ceilings, it is a waste of money to buy bass traps. The speakers simply do not have the energy to excite problematic modal behavior."

My room is 21'x20' and although it has an 8' ceiling, that ceiling will be soft. The hard ceiling is actually the hipped roof which is 8' above the ceiling which would average out closer to 12' than 8'. Anyway I have a hard time believing his statement because I can play a tone and walk around my room and hear the modal peaks and nulls, and I can see it on the graphs.

Am I misunderstanding? He doesn't seem like a kook.