Waterfall Plots of my Room before treatment [no wonder I can't mix bass!]

[Jens Eklund]

Originally Posted by BigKD

Any thoughts?

4m x 5m x 2.5m room - modal resonance problem

[Glenn Kuras]

Yes it really is that bad. You can use the following as a guide for set up
GIK Acoustics: Room Setup


Also you can see my before and after.
Need advice on waterfall!

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Yes it really is that bad. You can use the following as a guide for set up
GIK Acoustics: Room Setup


Also you can see my before and after.
Need advice on waterfall!

Yea it's not a pretty picture at all.

But I already knew just from critical listening at various locations within the room that there is a serious problem in the bass region at my listening position.

When I stand in the corners, especially the right rear, I can hear a ton of bass building up. I have a funky issue with the rear of my room being open to a hall as well. My monitors are now about 2-3 feet off the wall with 2 windows.

Check out this model I made: BigKD's quest for home studio excellence

[BigKD]

Here's my most recent measurement with 6 GIK tri traps and 2 real traps mini traps [at first reflection points].



Sorry for the lack of waterfall. I don't feel like paying $150 for FuzzMeasure, so I am stuck with the demo version for now!

[Glenn Kuras]

It looks a lot better then it did. to get a room +/-5 db is not a easy task. It takes a lot of treatment. And to get +/-7 (or so) is pretty good. If you would like to email these to me (kind of hard to read) we can go over them.
BTW waterfall is actually, IMO a lot more important in a lot ways. When the decay times are in order it makes the low end much more defined/tight.

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

It looks a lot better then it did. to get a room +/-5 db is not a easy task. It takes a lot of treatment. And to get +/-7 (or so) is pretty good. If you would like to email these to me (kind of hard to read) we can go over them.
BTW waterfall is actually, IMO a lot more important in a lot ways. When the decay times are in order it makes the low end much more defined/tight.

Yea... it's clearly a big step in the right direction. I can tell just by listening to some commercial tracks that there is a lot less ringing from top to bottom, but I completely agree that a waterfall is necessary. I just can't believe that FuzzMeasure is 150 bucks.

Unfortunately REW does not work with my RME UFX interface.

I just forwarded the e-mail I just sent to Bryan P.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by BigKD

Yea... it's clearly a big step in the right direction. I can tell just by listening to some commercial tracks that there is a lot less ringing from top to bottom, but I completely agree that a waterfall is necessary. I just can't believe that FuzzMeasure is 150 bucks.

Unfortunately REW does not work with my RME UFX interface.

Just export the recorded audio from FuzzMeasure and use the File ->"Import Impulse Response" in REW.

Yeah, the pricing of FM is odd. All the hobbyists, who are planning to use that software just for one home studio, it is just too high. IMO they would sell a lot more copies at a price of $50, and would ultimately make more money at the end. At least I would spend $50 in blink of an eye, and not use the free REW at all.

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer

Just export the recorded audio from FuzzMeasure and use the File ->"Import Impulse Response" in REW.

Yeah, the pricing of FM is odd. All the hobbyists, who are planning to use that software just for one home studio, it is just too high. IMO they would sell a lot more copies at a price of $50, and would ultimately make more money at the end. At least I would spend $50 in blink of an eye, and not use the free REW at all.

Thanks for the tip! Have you done this? Any further instructions? I can't get it to work yet :(

And $50 bucks is exactly what I decided I was willing to pay too, lol. Clearly he is charging beyond what the market will bear, assuming he could sell more than 3x his current volume by dropping the price to $50.

Damn, I should go into business!

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by BigKD

Thanks for the tip! Have you done this? Any further instructions? I can't get it to work yet :(

I had the same problem with REW not supporting the my interface. I think FuzzMeasure is a fantastic program, and its charts/graphs look absolute stunning. The exception is the waterfall, which does not measure up to the rest of the software. REW's waterfall seems better.

I just noticed that at the FuzzMeasure's "end-of-trial-period", the export function will be disabled. Sorry for inadvertently pulling your leg.

Guess I now have to somehow use REW for everything too...

[BigKD]

Yea the waterfalls are pretty rough. I find them difficult to analyze compared to REW, which further deters me from paying that much money for a program lacking that critical functionality.

[BriHar]

They should, as numerous others have done, distinguish between for own personal use and for commercial use in their licensing strategie.

I used to use a CAD software at home I bought for about $49 (virtually the cost of packaging as it came with a full printed manual). It turns out this software was in fact a well known CAD program selling normally for over $3000. The licensing agreement simply stated that I was not allowed to use the software for a business or other commercial enterprise, but was fully free to use it for personal use - plus it had some export options removed.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer

I had the same problem with REW not supporting the my interface. I think FuzzMeasure is a fantastic program, and its charts/graphs look absolute stunning. The exception is the waterfall, which does not measure up to the rest of the software. REW's waterfall seems better.

I just noticed that at the FuzzMeasure's "end-of-trial-period", the export function will be disabled. Sorry for inadvertently pulling your leg.

Guess I now have to somehow use REW for everything too...

I am not a programmer in anyway, but I would think fuzzmeasure would make a sweep file that you can just find in the file folder and import to REW?

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I am not a programmer in anyway, but I would think fuzzmeasure would make a sweep file that you can just find in the file folder and import to REW?

The export function is blocked in the demo, but I see what you are saying. I'll look for the raw audio file on my hard drive.

[DanDan]

The Raw Audio File will be a recording of the Sweep PLUS the Room.
You will need to Convolve, or is it Deconvolve? that with the original Sweep File, which you probably can Export. This will remove the Sweep leaving an IR of the Room.
Jeff has told us of a software tool which does this at HOLM Acoustics.
There may be a Mac convolution app somewhere.

When FM came out first it was a godsend. The price was and probably is in the same league as the PC offerings ETF (and now ARTA).
At the time I did say 'support the pros' and ventured the opinion that a free product would prevent development of commercial offerings.
Pretty obvious prophesies and unfortunately this seems to be happening.
Chris, the FM author, does this for a living and has now branched into iApps.
FM has not seen an overhaul in some time and has some really crippling behaviours in terms of defaulting to absurd settings. A series of incremental Waterfalls is a real chore, involving inputting half a dozen settings each shot.
On the other hand REW has become stable on the Intel Macs at least using the onboard Line Inputs. On top of that the Tool set provided in REW has increased in leaps and bounds. RTA, SLM, etc. etc.

As it stands, FuzzMeasure badly needs an overhaul. However, it is pure natural Mac. i.e. It just works. Point and shoot. If you were to charge for time spent learning to drive REW, even at a basic level, 150 bucks starts to look very fair.

EDIT. The Waterfall doesn't look bad at all to me. I would need to see ones taken at other spots in the room to be sure. It looks quite even with no modes sticking out. I strongly suspect the nulls are BIR.


DD

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by DanDan

EDIT. The Waterfall doesn't look bad at all to me. I would need to see ones taken at other spots in the room to be sure. It looks quite even with no modes sticking out. I strongly suspect the nulls are BIR.

DD

What is BIR?

I can tell from listening that there is more bass energy towards the rear of the room. I'll try and measure back there later tonight...

[-tc-]

Originally Posted by BigKD

What is BIR?

Boundary interference/interface response

[Jens Eklund]

Originally Posted by BigKD

What is BIR?

Good question:

SBIR

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by BigKD

What is BIR?

I can tell from listening that there is more bass energy towards the rear of the room. I'll try and measure back there later tonight...

Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).

[BigKD]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).

Sounds a lot like comb filtering to me...

No pun intended.

[DanDan]

BIR is kinda like SBIR but it happens only in Winter.....
Sure comb filtering, or many other names, but the BIR family has very specific examples of it. e.g Front Wall BIR.
Taken to extreme I suppose almost everything that happens to the sound is a Boundary Interference Response.
If you play around with the Waterfalls, and or shift speaker and/or mic, you will be able to separate Resonant (Modes) from Non Resonant (Boundary reflections which cause one big null, perhaps with a string of little ones, as in comb).
It is good to separate them because the location of the treatments are very specific. BWBIR seems to be particularly dominant. All right Back Wall Boundary Interference Response......
I pretty much repeated this test and came to the same conclusion.
RealTraps - Room Modes
DD