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theriotwithin
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22nd December 2011
Old 22nd December 2011
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Angle of Control Room Window

Currently designing the window between my control room and live space. I would like the best isolation possible between the rooms.

I read on Auralex's website that "the loss of sound isolation resulting from angling windows is typically greater that the relative improvement in reflection control. As such, angling is generally discouraged for studio windows".

But, according to John Sayer's studio construction the windows should be angled.

What is the best method for constructing the windows?
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22nd December 2011
Old 22nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theriotwithin View Post
Currently designing the window between my control room and live space. I would like the best isolation possible between the rooms.
Straight.

Andre
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23rd December 2011
Old 23rd December 2011
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The greatest isolation levels are with parallel panes - the angling of the panes (however) can be a visual improvement.......
theriotwithin
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23rd December 2011
Old 23rd December 2011
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Originally Posted by Rod Gervais View Post
The greatest isolation levels are with parallel panes - the angling of the panes (however) can be a visual improvement.......
Thanks for the info, would I be correct to assume the greater the distance between the panes the better? Or is there a general rule of thumb for spacing?

I have also read that 2 different thicknesses of laminated glass should be used (5/8" on one side and 5/16" on the other). Any recommendations for glass thickness and type?
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23rd December 2011
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Quote:
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Thanks for the info, would I be correct to assume the greater the distance between the panes the better? Or is there a general rule of thumb for spacing?
The greater the distance the greater the isolation. If you are matching the mas of the wall leafs, then there is no advantage to greater distances than the wall leafs.

Quote:
I have also read that 2 different thicknesses of laminated glass should be used (5/8" on one side and 5/16" on the other). Any recommendations for glass thickness and type?
Again, the best practical results are matching the mass of the leafs. With studio window sizing, there is no limitation caused by the matching coincidence dip. If you do want to vary the thickness, then make one pane thicker than what matching the wall mass would be. Laminated is better. Some people even recommend with laminated glass that one sze thinner than mass matching is good. I do not because double leaf walls have sound absorbent materisl increasing the TL between the leafs, which windows do not.

Well viewed,
Andre
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23rd December 2011
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The greater the distance the greater the isolation. If you are matching the mas of the wall leafs, then there is no advantage to greater distances than the wall leafs.
True that............. +1

Personally - all of my room designs use splayed windows - this mostly because they just look so cool............and (due to this) I always design with 1 pane of glass equal to or slightly greater in mass than the wall surface (whichever is the case due to availability - but would never use even slightly less mass) and then make the 2nd pane at least 1/4" greater in thickness to make up for the losses experienced due to a smaller air space as well as the lack of insulation in the cavity.

Rod
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23rd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais View Post
True that............. +1

Personally - all of my room designs use splayed windows - this mostly because they just look so cool............and (due to this) I always design with 1 pane of glass equal to or slightly greater in mass than the wall surface (whichever is the case due to availability - but would never use even slightly less mass) and then make the 2nd pane at least 1/4" greater in thickness to make up for the losses experienced due to a smaller air space as well as the lack of insulation in the cavity.
What can I say with respect (using your great opening)? Once again, we agree.

Isn't studio design great when people work with knowledge, instead of opinion?

Knowledgably respectful,
Andre
theriotwithin
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24th December 2011
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The greater the distance the greater the isolation. If you are matching the mas of the wall leafs, then there is no advantage to greater distances than the wall leafs.


Again, the best practical results are matching the mass of the leafs. With studio window sizing, there is no limitation caused by the matching coincidence dip. If you do want to vary the thickness, then make one pane thicker than what matching the wall mass would be. Laminated is better. Some people even recommend with laminated glass that one sze thinner than mass matching is good. I do not because double leaf walls have sound absorbent materisl increasing the TL between the leafs, which windows do not.

Well viewed,
Andre
Please excuse my ignorance but how exactly do you "match the mass of the leaves"?

Thanks again for the help!
theriotwithin
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24th December 2011
Old 24th December 2011
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Window Detail

Please see the attached .pdf which shows my preliminary window and wall design. Let me know what you think...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Window Detail.pdf (114.0 KB, 397 views)
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24th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theriotwithin View Post
Please see the attached .pdf which shows my preliminary window and wall design. Let me know what you think...
I'll comment on this tomorrow - it's getting late here - however you have some design flaws - this is not a good way to proceed.......

More tomorrow.........

Rod
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24th December 2011
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OK - to begin with - loose the resilient channel........ it does you no good with double wall construction - in fact it hurts you.

The purpose of RC is to decouple the face of drywall in order to minimize transmissions - you already have a decoupled structure.

If you could afford to lose 4" in total you would be better off with 2x6 on 2' centers than with 2x4 on 16" centers - there is a benefit in the low frequency TL Values - with no substantial additional cost (2x6 @ 2' amounts to the same # of board feet of lumber for the studs - there is a slight add in board feet for the plates and jambs, etc.

Forgetting acoustics for a moment - just general construction methods - you should have 2 top plates on your walls - this way you can interlock the walls at corners and over joints in the wall plates........ much better construction......

I am going to have to assume (based on your design) that these are non-bearing walls - if that's the case then you don't need that header at the top of the window - just use double 2x4's on the flat and infill above with cripple's (the call the studs between a header/top plate - or sill/bottom plate "cripples" - perhaps because they cut the feet off in the first case and the head off in the second)- do the same for the bottom of the window opening. These will provide lateral stability in the wall assembly......

If these are bearing walls then the headers above are required - & should be sized for the opening. Again - for a 2x4 wall the headers should be full depth - you use 2 members and just place the face flush to the room face of wall - optionally you can use spacers (wood lath is perfect for this) between the members so they flush up with the framing members at both faces of the framing.

The jack studs supporting the headers should run all the way to the sill plate.

The window frame itself should maintain he isolation between the 2 walls......

I have attached a typical wall detail for an isolated window in double wall construction - use this for general details - this particular construction utilized structural sheathing to create a rigid frame - you can ignore that (as well as the room finishes) and just focus on the concept for framing and window details.......

I do not like the fiberboard spacer you're using between the windows - I have some serious concerns about the use of that material and the manner in which it couples the 2 frames together.

I was just brought into a studio in Albany NY about 6 weeks ago to consult on how to "fix" the sound in their rooms, so not for sound isolation issues - although I observed some while there.

The designer for the studio used a detail similar to what you have - with the same interior "bridge" between the walls - and when I was checking out the acoustic anomalies in one of the iso-booths I noticed that I could hear (quite clearly) a normal conversation going on between 2 people that were standing about 3' from the window separating the booth from the main room.

You do not want any material between those 2 wall assemblies that is going to create a direct short.

Now - as far as the window thickness goes - a lot depends on exactly what the laminated is between the glass panels - this because there is a pretty wide swing on the weight of the laminate depending on thickness and materials used ( a low of about 0.08 psf (for a 0.015" PVB Interlayer) to a high of .66 psf (for a 0.120" UV Liquid Interlayer) according to the Glass Association of North America.

Using the lower end of the numbers for the laminate, a 3/8" panel is going to be made up of 2 ea. 3/16" plates with the laminate between - which means it is going to weigh about 4.88 psf - not quite enough to get you there (the drywall weight is about 5.25 pcf for 2 layers of 5/8" drywall) which also means the 5/16" is even less effective.

To match your the mass in your walls you would need to either go to a hybrid glass size (a combination of 2 different thicknesses of glass) or to a much more expensive laminate core.

A core with enough mass to get you there would be Ionomer Interlayer 0.090" thick which weighs about .47 pcf - however the price of this is probably going to be much more expensive than just making an adjustment in glass thickness.

Using the lighter PVB Interlayer - we have the mass of the wall, 5.25 pcf - minus the interlayer of 0.08 pcf - so you're looking for 5.17 pcf of glass mass - the 3/16" face your starting with weighs 2.4 pcf - so you need to make up 2.77 pcf - which would be a plate thickness of 1/4" (3 pcf)

So a 7/16" laminated glass with a standard core would get the job done.......

Now - if you're installing the glazing full wall depth - so parallel frames - then a piece of this on either face would be adequate - but - if you intend to play the glass (like you see in most pro studios) then you really should increase the glass thickness in order to make up for the decrease in air space (as I mentioned above) - and laminated glass gets real expensive real fast as you begin to make it thicker - which is why I opt for a thicker piece of standard annealed glass in lieu of a thicker laminate in the opposing window frame.

In the case of 7/16" laminate I would opt for a piece of 5/8" annealed (tempered if the glass size if greater than 9sf) with a weight of about 8.1 pcf.

It should be much cheaper than a 1/2" of laminate glass in either case.

One other thing you may want to look at here........ and that is the cost of going this with just standard annealed/tempered glass compared to the cost of doing it with laminate at all.

You could achieve the same level of isolation using a piece of 1/2" tempered with a piece of 3/4" annealed in the opposing opening - which may well be cheaper than using laminate.

Now - if the window in question is within 2' of the latch side of a door than the glass must be protective - which would mean the glazing has to meet impact standards - which usually means tempered glass (laminate is generally approved for this purpose as well)

Also - large window openings in general ( single panes over 9sf in area) have to be tempered at the very least (at least here in the States anyway) or the glass has to be certified to withstand certain impact loads.

A local structural engineer can (usually for a reasonably priced fee) certify that a particular thickness of annealed glass can meet the impact code requirements...... in which case annealed can be used regardless of the window size.

I hope this helped.......

Rod
Attached Files
File Type: pdf typical window assembly.pdf (80.9 KB, 373 views)
theriotwithin
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24th December 2011
Old 24th December 2011
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Hey Rod, thanks a lot for the tremendous amount of info. I will modify my plans to fit your recommendations and post when complete.

I dont see the attachment you mentioned for the typical wall detail...

PS, just ordered your book!

Kevin
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24th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theriotwithin View Post
I dont see the attachment you mentioned for the typical wall detail...
Kevin
Kevin,

strange that - I had it attached when I saved it - but I have re-attached it - and checked to make certain it was there this time.......

I hope you like the book..........

Rod
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31st December 2011
Old 31st December 2011
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This is great info, just what I was searching for. Thank you guys for posting.

Just to broaden the discussion of windows, I am curious about using a thick sheet of acrylic in lieu of glass. I know it is about half the density of glass, but could there be an advantage in terms of resonance? If not a cost advantage even at double the thickness of a glass window? Ideas?

&e

ps. Ron & Andre, I have read hundreds if not thousands of your posts on various sites through the years. Thanks.
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31st December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
This is great info, just what I was searching for. Thank you guys for posting.

Just to broaden the discussion of windows, I am curious about using a thick sheet of acrylic in lieu of glass. I know it is about half the density of glass, but could there be an advantage in terms of resonance? If not a cost advantage even at double the thickness of a glass window? Ideas?
Andy,

I ran a quick check - you might be able to beat the price if you shop around - but this company is in business - so I can't imagine you'd cut the number by much........

A piece of 4' x 8' x 1" piece of acrylic (in lieu of a piece of 1/2" thick tempered runs around $1,248.00.

The 1/2" tempered around $336.00

So cost isn't even a little part of the equation here.

But - assuming that you could find a piece lying around somewhere - the biggest disadvantage to acrylics is the scratch component - over time the glass will scratch as it ages (this even just during the cleaning process) - and then - unless you're willing to invest the huge amount of time, energy & money to have it professionally resurfaced (the process is very similar to that used to resurface acrylic headlights) you have a window that is nothing short of annoying to look through.

Also - should anyone make contact with the surface and actually scratch it deeply (picture even a 1/32" deep scratch) the process of scratch removal becomes much more involved.

It is just not worth the hassle (even if all other things were equal).

Quote:
ps. Ron & Andre, I have read hundreds if not thousands of your posts on various sites through the years. Thanks.
You're quite welcome........ thanks for the kind words,

Rod
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2nd January 2012
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Back to angling the windows. I have a situation where there are windows on either side of the control room. I am thinking that angling one or both of them will help reduce potential flutter echo between them. Am I on the right track?

Thanks!

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3rd January 2012
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Wow talk about gearslutz at it's best!
Rod, you are one hell of a class act man. It never ceases to amaze me how much time and thought people put into helping fellow slutz and the calibre of people we have here helping.
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30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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I'm currently designing the window between my control room and live space and I would like to have a trapezoide shaped window (two angled laminated glass).

Is there any disadvantage in going trapezoid instead of the standard rectangular shape?

I preffer that way because of the overal look/design of the room.

Thanks.

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30th December 2012
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Acoustically there is no advantage based on glass shape...... if this is what your form of "cool" is - go for it.

Rod
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30th December 2012
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Thanks Rod!

I wasn't sure if I was going to make an acoustical mistake (frame construction, etc.) going trapezoid because of the way it's going to look in my rooms.

Do you know or anybody can recommend a ' studio frame builder/window installer' in Los Angeles, CA.

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