Is my builder right?

Pies · 26th August 2011

Hi

I'm just about to drop some money on a build for new premises,
Originally I was going to under take the work myself but I have decided it would be a much better idea to get some one in who knows what they are doing.

The builder who has designed the rooms and is carrying out the work has worked on studios and sound proofed rooms in the past but I'm just a bit skeptical about his plans. Could anyone confirm my fears or put my mind at rest as I'm out of my depth when it comes to room construction and soundproofing.

The new space is an old motel that is being turned into retail units,
I have been placed on the top floor. The construction of the building is brick with a small cavity and then breeze block, the floor construction is solid concrete. The room which will be the live room has 6 windows and the control room has 1.

There are a few areas to take into account with the sound proofing, opposite the live room is a smoking area for a music bar which backs onto the studio and below the studio is going to be a cafe. So the design needs to cut out noise from the smoking area into my studio and it also needs to stop excessive noise leaking into the cafe below from the studio and also stop any noise coming from the cafe into the live room. We also need to reduce the amount of noise coming from the building as much as possible.

The builder proposes putting a floating floor of 3" down and filling this with 8 tonnes of sand, covering that with sound quilt, then leaving a 1" air gap and boarding over the top, then my underlay and laminate would be layed over that. (The landlord will also be installing a suspended ceiling in the cafe that will also be lined with sound quilt)

For the walls he proposes studing out a room within a room a room, making an air gap which will be dampened with rock wool, then using a layer of sound quit over that, then 2 layers of soundbloc plasterboard to form the outer wall. All the windows will be boarded up and sealed before the stud goes up.

For the ceiling he says all we will need to do is lay a layer of sound quilt as the eves of the ceiling are quite high and covered in tiles.

Any opinions would be much appreciated

Thanks
Ow

Rod Gervais · 26th August 2011

I would have to see detailed building sections before I could comment on this....... not enough information in this post to make a reasonable decision as to it's ability to work or not....

I would also be interested in knowing what the existing ambient sound levels are in that space.

always_ending · 26th August 2011

It all depends, on the SPLs coming from your neighbors around you. If it were any basic retail shops, etc... I'd think this construction would generally work pretty damn well,

But being that there's a purported cafe and music bar next door, you will most likely not be able to cut out the low freqs through the walls/floors with this construction to the point of being able to record while those shops are at capacity pumping their own music, etc. The freqs above 200 hz would easily be able to be controlled, but your problem areas will be the lower freqs by far.

I'm no "expert" by any means, but have numerous books on studio/acoustical design that I've read/studied throughout the years. Books like "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest & "Recording Studio Design" by Philip Newell, have really helped my understanding of this very difficult process.

Hopefully you can get Ethan Winer, avare, Wes Lachot, or some of the higher educated members on here to help comment.... these guys have helped myself and others on this subject immeasurably and are all super nice guys. If you don't hear from them in a few days on this post, I would highly recommend you PM them and ask questions... but notice they're also busy men and won't comment as much as guys like myself that know "little bits" of the subject, but ultimately... I would recommend their advice before my own and others.

Glenn Kuras · 26th August 2011

Quote:

Hopefully you can get Ethan Winer, avare, Wes Lachot, or some of the higher educated members on here to help comment.... these guys have helped myself and others on this subject immeasurably and are all super nice guys. If you don't hear from them in a few days on this post, I would highly recommend you PM them and ask questions... but notice they're also busy men and won't comment as much as guys like myself that know "little bits" of the subject, but ultimately... I would recommend their advice before my own and others.

Actually Rod is pretty heavy hitter, especially when it comes to the build portion. If Rod says he needs more info then I would take that as a gift.

Disjointed · 27th August 2011

wheres the +1 button for Glenn's post

Pies · 27th August 2011

thanks for the info and your thoughts,
what additional info would you need Rod?

Thanks
Ow

Pies · 27th August 2011

Quote:

I would also be interested in knowing what the existing ambient sound levels are in that space.

Also whats the best way to measure the ambient noise in the space at the moment?

There is no power in the building at the moment but I do have a lap top with Pro Tools and a Mbox somewhere. I have a collection of mics but I haven't got any kind of measurement mics.

jhbrandt · 27th August 2011

Ow,

We really need to see the PLAN drawings and the ELEVATION layer details of the blueprints/pdf with dimensions in order to comment without assumptions.

The devil is in the details.

Cheers,
John

jhbrandt · 27th August 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pies

Also whats the best way to measure the ambient noise in the space at the moment?

There is no power in the building at the moment but I do have a lap top with Pro Tools and a Mbox somewhere. I have a collection of mics but I haven't got any kind of measurement mics.

Sound pressure level meter.

or you could use a calibrated measurement program (like REW) with your laptop.
Cheers,
John

Pies · 31st August 2011

I should have cross sections from my builder and some SPL readings for the room tomorrow.

Pies · 1st September 2011

Ok so I have got loads more information for you all now,
any constructive ideas or comments would be much appreciated

I have attached a picture of the current wall and floor structure and I have also attached a picture of the construction my builder has advised me on.

The Ceiling of the studio is already studded with 2 layers of plasterboard and the ceiling will be filled with sound quilt, after the sound quit there is a 4ft air gap and them felt and tiles on the roof.

My builder has advised today that the suspended floor and studs will all be attached with 25mm rubber absorbers underneath the 4x2. I have noticed when I have copied his plan on the computer I have missed out the joists that run through the sand to attach the suspended floor joists too.

I have also included a picture with the dimensions of the room.

Today I bought myself a SPL meter and took some measurements inside and outside of the studio. I tested the lo and hi end, I'm just trying to source what frequency range the ow and hi are as in the manual its only lists the level ranges.

Outside the Studio:
Hi 69.7
Lo 77.4

Inside the studio (Control Room)
Hi 62
Lo 44

Inside the studio (Live Room)
Hi 61.3
Lo 41.3

Tonight I'm going to take some more readings of the SPL in the room when the music bar is in full swing with a gig on.

Chris_Nicks · 1st September 2011

About the walls, Id go double leaf or just 1 airgap. 8 tons of sand? wow.. have you checked your structural strength? :D

Pies · 1st September 2011

Yes the bison beams can support the weight of the sand, there isn't an issue there.

What do you mean by dual leaf Walls?

Rod Gervais · 2nd September 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pies

Yes the bison beams can support the weight of the sand, there isn't an issue there.

What do you mean by dual leaf Walls?

I don't like the floor design at all - there must be something missing from the detail I see in the sketch........

If the floor is built like shown in the sketch - there will be some serious issues with settlement - sand is great to dampen and add some mass - but it will definitely have issues with displacement unless it is locked in on all 6 sides.......

Rod

Pies · 2nd September 2011

I haven't copied the builders sketches correctly on the floor construction,
there will be 4x2 through the sand and then the 4x2 for the chipboard floor boards will be crossed over the top of those

Chris_Nicks · 2nd September 2011

double leaf is Mass Air Mass wall construction. It would really help if you give the complete plans for your studio to give us 3d perspective. It would give us an idea on how much STL, and STC you got. Id would also be nice if you could get a sketch of your studio, where the noise is coming from, what noise is generated and how loud the noise is.

Dange · 2nd September 2011

Does the floor definitely go right to the outside wall as in the picture?

This whole area could be critical for flanking noise reduction to the floor below.

Pies · 2nd September 2011

The bison beam floor goes up to the hemelite block, but not into the brick work.

Rod Gervais · 2nd September 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pies

I haven't copied the builders sketches correctly on the floor construction,
there will be 4x2 through the sand and then the 4x2 for the chipboard floor boards will be crossed over the top of those

That being the case the sand dose not make a whole lot of sense...... granted it adds some mass to the floor - however the new floor and the existing floor are still structurally coupled.

Personally I would not design a floor like that for any of my clients......

Rod

Pies · 2nd September 2011

Thanks for all the comments

there seem to be far to many flaws in this design,
so its looking like going back to the drawing board
and looking for alternative premises again that won't need as much isolation,

jhbrandt · 3rd September 2011

Owen,

Sorry for the late reply. The drawings leave much to the imagination. I have, below, given my estimates on the Calculated maximum isolation of the partitions:
Ceiling = STC32
Walls = STC32 w/MAM f=30Hz + block = total STC57 - STC63 if properly decoupled
Floor (sand) = STC40 - 48 with good damping / Floor (floating partition) = STC26 (resonant freq = 55Hz Total STC48 – STC55 poor LF performance probable.

Your SPL measurements seem to show a maximum difference inside vs outside the CR & TR of only 36 decibels. But this kind of measurement does not tell the whole story and is not necessarily indicative of the STL of the walls, floors, etc.

I agree completely with Rod about the floor. You could have, (for the weight involved), poured a proper spring decoupled floating concrete floor. THEN you would have the isolation that you will need in a situation like that.

Yes, I would reconsider the location.

Look to place the 'studio' facilities on the ground floor without a basement or IN a basement where you will automatically obtain a substantial amount of LF isolation.

I also recommend that you contact Rod, Jeff, Wes, or myself to design your isolation and acoustics properly. As Andre's tag line reads; "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction."

Also note that, with a few exceptions, most builders are not studio designers or isolation experts. Mark Littlefair (builder in Montreal, Canada) has built many studios but he still calls me for the designs. Hire Rod and you get the 'whole' package.

Cheers,
John

Dange · 6th September 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pies

The bison beam floor goes up to the hemelite block, but not into the brick work.

Ok this then gives a flanking path to the floor below via the cavity between the Hemelite and the external Brick wall. You need to take account of that

Pies · 7th September 2011

as luck would have it some one has called me today
with a 1,600sq ft unit that has a 800sq ft basement!

So I'm going to check it out and hopefully sign on the dotted line on Monday, its out in the middle of no where so will just need to split it up and make it sound good!

I'm going to just use the basement to start off with and move upto the top 800sq ft floor in the future when I know what to do with it!! I ideally the top floor would be better as it has higher ceilings but as I say that can be worked on in the future

In a way I guess not going for the original building has worked out much better I have ended up with more space that needs less work! (but it is a 25 min drive from home) and I'm not going to be living in the pocket of my boss at the venue I work at!

burster1 · 7th September 2011

The word sand and Studio together would make me run. The use of rubber U-Boats is a much better and cleaner design. FWIW. I am not a fan of foam panels and recommend acoustic fiberglass and cloth panels.

U-Boat Floor Floaters - Acoustic sound studio construction products from Auralex Acoustics.

Pies · 7th September 2011

as I have explained in previous posts I'm and not going forward with these designs as I have found alternative premises

I wouldn't ever use any Auralex products as they are over priced

Thanks for all the input

26th August 2011	#1
Pies Gear addict Joined: Jun 2007 Location: UK Posts: 352 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	Is my builder right? Hi I'm just about to drop some money on a build for new premises, Originally I was going to under take the work myself but I have decided it would be a much better idea to get some one in who knows what they are doing. The builder who has designed the rooms and is carrying out the work has worked on studios and sound proofed rooms in the past but I'm just a bit skeptical about his plans. Could anyone confirm my fears or put my mind at rest as I'm out of my depth when it comes to room construction and soundproofing. The new space is an old motel that is being turned into retail units, I have been placed on the top floor. The construction of the building is brick with a small cavity and then breeze block, the floor construction is solid concrete. The room which will be the live room has 6 windows and the control room has 1. There are a few areas to take into account with the sound proofing, opposite the live room is a smoking area for a music bar which backs onto the studio and below the studio is going to be a cafe. So the design needs to cut out noise from the smoking area into my studio and it also needs to stop excessive noise leaking into the cafe below from the studio and also stop any noise coming from the cafe into the live room. We also need to reduce the amount of noise coming from the building as much as possible. The builder proposes putting a floating floor of 3" down and filling this with 8 tonnes of sand, covering that with sound quilt, then leaving a 1" air gap and boarding over the top, then my underlay and laminate would be layed over that. (The landlord will also be installing a suspended ceiling in the cafe that will also be lined with sound quilt) For the walls he proposes studing out a room within a room a room, making an air gap which will be dampened with rock wool, then using a layer of sound quit over that, then 2 layers of soundbloc plasterboard to form the outer wall. All the windows will be boarded up and sealed before the stud goes up. For the ceiling he says all we will need to do is lay a layer of sound quilt as the eves of the ceiling are quite high and covered in tiles. Any opinions would be much appreciated Thanks Ow __________________ Loud Noises Studio Web: www.loudnoisesproduction.co.uk Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/LoudNoisesPr...ecordingStudio Twitter: @LoudNoisesPro

26th August 2011	#3
always_ending Gear addict Joined: May 2008 Location: South Mississippi Posts: 311	It all depends, on the SPLs coming from your neighbors around you. If it were any basic retail shops, etc... I'd think this construction would generally work pretty damn well, But being that there's a purported cafe and music bar next door, you will most likely not be able to cut out the low freqs through the walls/floors with this construction to the point of being able to record while those shops are at capacity pumping their own music, etc. The freqs above 200 hz would easily be able to be controlled, but your problem areas will be the lower freqs by far. I'm no "expert" by any means, but have numerous books on studio/acoustical design that I've read/studied throughout the years. Books like "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest & "Recording Studio Design" by Philip Newell, have really helped my understanding of this very difficult process. Hopefully you can get Ethan Winer, avare, Wes Lachot, or some of the higher educated members on here to help comment.... these guys have helped myself and others on this subject immeasurably and are all super nice guys. If you don't hear from them in a few days on this post, I would highly recommend you PM them and ask questions... but notice they're also busy men and won't comment as much as guys like myself that know "little bits" of the subject, but ultimately... I would recommend their advice before my own and others. __________________ "Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." -John Lennon "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." -Tolstoy

2nd September 2011	#17
Dange Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2008 Location: London, UK Posts: 857	Does the floor definitely go right to the outside wall as in the picture? This whole area could be critical for flanking noise reduction to the floor below. Attached Thumbnails

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

26th August 2011	#2
Rod Gervais Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: Central Village CT Posts: 1,686	I would have to see detailed building sections before I could comment on this....... not enough information in this post to make a reasonable decision as to it's ability to work or not.... I would also be interested in knowing what the existing ambient sound levels are in that space.

27th August 2011	#5
Disjointed Lives for gear Joined: Nov 2006 Location: the catacombs Posts: 747	wheres the +1 button for Glenn's post

27th August 2011	#8
jhbrandt Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2009 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 2,715	Ow, We really need to see the PLAN drawings and the ELEVATION layer details of the blueprints/pdf with dimensions in order to comment without assumptions. The devil is in the details. Cheers, John

31st August 2011	#10
Pies Gear addict Joined: Jun 2007 Location: UK Posts: 352 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	I should have cross sections from my builder and some SPL readings for the room tomorrow.

1st September 2011	#11
Pies Gear addict Joined: Jun 2007 Location: UK Posts: 352 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	Ok so I have got loads more information for you all now, any constructive ideas or comments would be much appreciated I have attached a picture of the current wall and floor structure and I have also attached a picture of the construction my builder has advised me on. The Ceiling of the studio is already studded with 2 layers of plasterboard and the ceiling will be filled with sound quilt, after the sound quit there is a 4ft air gap and them felt and tiles on the roof. My builder has advised today that the suspended floor and studs will all be attached with 25mm rubber absorbers underneath the 4x2. I have noticed when I have copied his plan on the computer I have missed out the joists that run through the sand to attach the suspended floor joists too. I have also included a picture with the dimensions of the room. Today I bought myself a SPL meter and took some measurements inside and outside of the studio. I tested the lo and hi end, I'm just trying to source what frequency range the ow and hi are as in the manual its only lists the level ranges. Outside the Studio: Hi 69.7 Lo 77.4 Inside the studio (Control Room) Hi 62 Lo 44 Inside the studio (Live Room) Hi 61.3 Lo 41.3 Tonight I'm going to take some more readings of the SPL in the room when the music bar is in full swing with a gig on.

1st September 2011	#12
Chris_Nicks Gear maniac Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 231	About the walls, Id go double leaf or just 1 airgap. 8 tons of sand? wow.. have you checked your structural strength? :D

3rd September 2011	#21
jhbrandt Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2009 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 2,715	Owen, Sorry for the late reply. The drawings leave much to the imagination. I have, below, given my estimates on the Calculated maximum isolation of the partitions: Ceiling = STC32 Walls = STC32 w/MAM f=30Hz + block = total STC57 - STC63 if properly decoupled Floor (sand) = STC40 - 48 with good damping / Floor (floating partition) = STC26 (resonant freq = 55Hz Total STC48 – STC55 poor LF performance probable. Your SPL measurements seem to show a maximum difference inside vs outside the CR & TR of only 36 decibels. But this kind of measurement does not tell the whole story and is not necessarily indicative of the STL of the walls, floors, etc. I agree completely with Rod about the floor. You could have, (for the weight involved), poured a proper spring decoupled floating concrete floor. THEN you would have the isolation that you will need in a situation like that. Yes, I would reconsider the location. Look to place the 'studio' facilities on the ground floor without a basement or IN a basement where you will automatically obtain a substantial amount of LF isolation. I also recommend that you contact Rod, Jeff, Wes, or myself to design your isolation and acoustics properly. As Andre's tag line reads; "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction." Also note that, with a few exceptions, most builders are not studio designers or isolation experts. Mark Littlefair (builder in Montreal, Canada) has built many studios but he still calls me for the designs. Hire Rod and you get the 'whole' package. Cheers, John

7th September 2011	#23
Pies Gear addict Joined: Jun 2007 Location: UK Posts: 352 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	as luck would have it some one has called me today with a 1,600sq ft unit that has a 800sq ft basement! So I'm going to check it out and hopefully sign on the dotted line on Monday, its out in the middle of no where so will just need to split it up and make it sound good! I'm going to just use the basement to start off with and move upto the top 800sq ft floor in the future when I know what to do with it!! I ideally the top floor would be better as it has higher ceilings but as I say that can be worked on in the future In a way I guess not going for the original building has worked out much better I have ended up with more space that needs less work! (but it is a 25 min drive from home) and I'm not going to be living in the pocket of my boss at the venue I work at!

7th September 2011	#24
burster1 Gear nut Joined: Dec 2008 Location: USA Posts: 109	The word sand and Studio together would make me run. The use of rubber U-Boats is a much better and cleaner design. FWIW. I am not a fan of foam panels and recommend acoustic fiberglass and cloth panels. U-Boat Floor Floaters - Acoustic sound studio construction products from Auralex Acoustics.