Overwhelmed - Questions on setting up a space

[jason baliban]

I have a ton of potentially silly questions and I would really appreciate some guidance.

I have been working a little bit in this space and the owner is about ready to let us start recording some bands.

The tracking space is 51' 10" x 23' 7" x 14' 1". I have placed a cute blue icon to note where i have been placing the drums. Here are a bunch of different angles.











The desks will be removed over the next few weeks so the space will be pretty empty.

Here is a shot from the back of the room where you can see i labeled the door to the "Control Room"



Here are a couple shots of the "Control Room" that is 13' 8" x 10' 4" x 8' 7". This room will be emptied as well. I have label where I "think" the desk should go?











Do you guys think this space is usable, as far as the dimensions?

Would you position the desk differently?

I am going to put some bass traps in the corners behind the desk, any other obvious spots?

I am going to close the door to the tracking room off and construct a window. Any suggestions on size besides the maximum width?

When i close off the door i will need to create some connections/ports for cabling to go out to the space. I figure i may need to run XLR cables up to 50' out in the room. Is the best way to use XLR cables and connect to a wall plate or to run a snake out there and have the connections in the space?

Any other connections I need to think about to go from the control room into the space?

How bout talk back? I was going to use a 4 track mixer for the monitor mix and just use the fader to control talk back. Any other suggestions?

Anything else i should consider for monitoring?

There were a bunch of old cubical walls that i have been using....pictured below....



There are 4 - 66x60" panels and 2 - 48x66" panels...all 2" thick. Would you double stack them for 4" or would you rather more surface area leaving them single?

Any other tips as far as the space or "control room?"

Thanks so much!

I am sure i will have more questions.

jB

[jason baliban]

My plan must be perfect already

jB

[ritelec]

Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE!


OK, I'll bite.

Do a bunch of reading. And then more reading....
You should get some ideas of what to do so your not needlessly spending your money and time on treating and construction that won't do much for you.
However, sometimes you can think things to death. You do have to grab the bull by the horns and start it and do it.
Take your time. Measure. Treat. Measure. Treat. It's a process.

I might suggest setting up your desk by the wall with the door your going to close and install a window at. So you could see into the live room, and build out and treat that new front wall position out to the vertical beam depth.

Snake junction box's are good. Keep things under control and tidy. However, it's one more item in the chain that could fail (or not).

Read, read, and Do. Read some more and Do some more.

Cool place.
Good Luck with it!


-rich

[avare]

Adding to ritelec's post, study and master my signature line.

Succinctly,
Andre

[jhbrandt]

Jason,

Very nice big room! - But your proposed CR is a bit on the small side... if you have other options for a larger CR, I would recommend it.

A nice large tracking area like that deserves a little better control room (which is the most important room in a studio)

If you must use the small CR (1212 cubic feet), setup as my drawing (attached)

The cubicle partitions will work nicely for acoustic instrument gobos.. and for vocal work. - There is probably no insulation above the tin ceiling in the large room & you will definitely need to do a bit of treatment in the large room.

Cheers,
John

[jason baliban]

These links are very helpful!!

What about Wall Plates??

So far i have 32 XLR.

What else do you think i absolutely have to have?

How many RCA?
How many 1/4" instrument lines?
How many MIDI?
Speaker outs?
USB?
VGA?
HDMI?

Anything else that i didnt even mention?

This is so fun, but so mind blowing!

jB

[Salty James]

amazing room.

but the control room is WAY too small it will be a nightmare in the low frequencies. the main room is large enough that you coule totally use it as well for the control room too. I would use the small room as an iso room for amps etc. -you always need an iso room.

tracking in one large room is the best way to go as far as i can tell. of course you dont get the isolation to really hear the mics, but the social and logistic benefits totally kills the alternative.

it is very similar to my set up -minus the 14' ceilings. wow! and i love my set up in every way!

[jhbrandt]

Jason,

The equipment and lines that you will need would depend on what you want to do... and also there are min and max to consider. so that's really up to you and your needs and experience recording.

If you must use that small CR, set up as I have drawn in my other post. Positioning sideways will only make matters worse. Facing the short wall, your head is already too close to the back wall. -and you are going to need a LOT of trapping.

Well placed large gobos will improve the decay time of the sound in the large tracking room. Would it be possible to also hang some absorption panels on the ceiling? Are you going to leave all that furniture in the room? You will notice a huge change in the acoustic character of the room if the furniture is removed.

Cheers,
John

[jason baliban]

Salty - The only problem that i have with monitoring in the same room with the artists is that sitting there for 8 hours a day while those guys try to pound it out is very tiring on my hearing and sanity.

John - I would say that 70% of the furniture will be removed, do you think i am doing myself a serious disservice by removing that much?

As per Salty's suggestion do you guys really think the control room is a bad idea? If it is, i would certainly save the money used for the extra long cabling and sealing.

Thanks guys,

jB

[avare]

Originally Posted by jason baliban

As per Salty's suggestion do you guys really think the control room is a bad idea?

The proposed control room is about 1,300 ft³. The smallest that is usually considered usable is about 1,500 ft³.

Andre

[jason baliban]

This ship is sinking fast:(

I may have another room that is larger....will get dimensions later...but it is even further from the tracking room.

Here are my 3 options, what would you guys choose?

1) Track and monitor in the same larger room.
2) Use a slightly too small control room with the advantage of some isolation and DIRECT LINE OF SITE with the tracking musicians.
3) Use a larger control room that would actually be more isolated but NO DIRECT LINE OF SITE with the tracking musicians.

[avare]

Originally Posted by jason baliban

1) Track and monitor in the same larger room.
2) Use a slightly too small control room with the advantage of some isolation and DIRECT LINE OF SITE with the tracking musicians.
3) Use a larger control room that would actually be more isolated but NO DIRECT LINE OF SITE with the tracking musicians.

Either 1 or 3 with video camera/monitor for visual feedback.

Andre

[jason baliban]

Originally Posted by avare

Either 1 or 3 with video camera/monitor for visual feedback.

Andre

I was really hoping you wouldnt say that! Either my ears or my budget are going to take a hit here.

jB

[avare]

Originally Posted by jason baliban

I was really hoping you wouldnt say that! Either my ears or my budget are going to take a hit here.

Meant in a positive serious manner, your current experiences are showing the importance of signature line.

You are identifying factors in your studio build that if not addressed will cause significant reduction in the capabilities of the finished studio.

Andre


ps: Aspirin was invented by students of acoustics.

[jason baliban]

Originally Posted by avare

Meant in a positive serious manner, your current experiences are showing the importance of signature line.

That is why i am posting

I will get more info on the other room later tonight.

jB

[jason baliban]

Here are the dimensions of the other room.

10' 1" x 17' x 8' 6"

Here are a few shots of the space.





My concerns with the new room is that its not that much bigger. It is only separated from the tracking room by two normal walls. I would not be able to see into the tracking room. I would have to add another 20" to all my mic cables.

I think i am left with either going with the original room or setting up in the tracking room. Any suggestions on where in the tracking room I should set up the desk?

Oh and for fun, check out my GOBO rolling frame prototype!





jB

[jhbrandt]

Jason.

ONE Room STUDIO.

You can do amazing things when you have the eye contact - especially if you are producing. (and I don't mean producing like rappers.. I mean REAL producer stuff - like Eddie Kramer or Byron Gallimore, etc.) The only problem you might have is tracking drums & for that you will need some good closed headphones.

Your mixes will go easy and depending on your skill, will translate very well. A large room like that will cause you less or zero fatigue and be a very enjoyable environment. Go with it. & it will save you some money too - you're killing two birds with one stone.

Cheers,
John

[jason baliban]

Connecting the Control Room to the Tracking Room

Here is what i am thinking...

26 channel snake - 22ins / 4 outs
...connected to an EDAC connector on the tracking room wall.
...another EDAC on the other side (control room).
...to another snake that feeds the preamps.

Do you think a snake is the best bet for the tracking room, or should i set up XLR inputs on the wall and run 60' individual XLR cables?

If i run snake, do you think i should use EDAC or fan them out with xlr connectors and have xlr inputs on the wall?

Thanks for the continued help!

jB

[jason baliban]

Here are some updates....

With the help of John, i have been building this over the last few months....

Remove the carpet


Frame in the door from the live room to the control room


Building the outlet boxes










Insulation




Hang drywall, sand and prime




Paint and add hardwood




Wiring






Start acoustical treatment









661 piece PRD






Wiring











Limp bag trap frames












Glass installed...











jB

[jhbrandt]

Jason,

Great job! Your quality workmanship is a great example for others to follow.

Sorry that I have been absent from GS for a bit. - very busy lately.
Cheers,
John

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Jason,

Great job! Your quality workmanship is a great example for others to follow.

Cheers,
John

+1

I caught your post asking for advice a couple months back..............nice work!


edit: couple months ago???? several months ago. Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

[avare]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Jason,

Great job! Your quality workmanship is a great example for others to follow.

+2!

Succinctly,
Andre

[DrFrankencopter]

Wow, great work...and fast too!

I'd love to see more detail on the 2-D diffusor, or is it a space coupler (not the skyline)? I'd like to build some of them myself.

So, what did you do for a control room? Are you going to set up in the tracking room? That's the way I've been working, and I like it. With a room as big as yours, even with drums going it won't be that bad. You can use the other rooms as iso booths. You might even be able to build a moveable partition to separate the front of your control room part of the space from the tracking area. That would cut down on direct sound getting into the control area, and give you a bit of a place to hide when a session isn't going too well.

Cheers

Kris

[jason baliban]

Thank you for the encouragement. It has been an awesome experience and a fun outlet for my budding interest in carpentry

Originally Posted by DrFrankencopter

Wow, great work...and fast too!

I'd love to see more detail on the 2-D diffusor, or is it a space coupler (not the skyline)? I'd like to build some of them myself.

So, what did you do for a control room? Are you going to set up in the tracking room? That's the way I've been working, and I like it. With a room as big as yours, even with drums going it won't be that bad. You can use the other rooms as iso booths. You might even be able to build a moveable partition to separate the front of your control room part of the space from the tracking area. That would cut down on direct sound getting into the control area, and give you a bit of a place to hide when a session isn't going too well.

Cheers

Kris

I had to go with the small adjacent room. It will prove to be challenging but i just did not have the option to alter the large room in any way.

jB

[jason baliban]

Here are a couple more...









jB

[avare]

That is looking great. Thank you for the progress report.

Andre

[jason baliban]

And the back wall is finished!!





jB

[jason baliban]

Finished!!

Time to test the room!!













jB

[kasmira]

Wow! That looks absolutely brilliant. Good work man, how does it sound? Can't wait to see the graphs

[jason baliban]

Originally Posted by kasmira

Wow! That looks absolutely brilliant. Good work man, how does it sound? Can't wait to see the graphs

Thank you!

So far it sounds amazing to me but tests will be had

jB