RA- The Book

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by audiothings

The way you put it... it seems so reasonable. Perhaps the truth is not so monogamous that it has to be yours or mine...?

If I was Genelec and I paid you a good deal of money to design a dual concentric 7" driver based speaker for me, and you released that particular design into the public domain after I paid for you for your time to design that particular product... Would it be fair? Legally, if your contract makes it possible for you to do so, there is no case against you...

Sir,

There is a whole universe of difference between the 2 examples... the verbiage of the contract agreement notwithstanding. I won't waste time here discussing the differences between patent and copyright - just the philosophy involved in the transaction.

To begin with - I am not designing studios for my clients with the understanding that they are going to mass market them to sell to the general public......

I am designing them with the understanding that my clients are going to construct a single studio for their own commercial (or personal) use.

Not quite the same as those speakers you're talking about here - where the obvious intent is for mass production.

However - even in those cases, where an outside person was brought into a firm for that purpose - the designer would generally own the patent rights, the company would be licensed for sole production - and there would certainly be a caveat in the contract as to the designers responsibilities to protect the manufacturer's rights in that regard, however the designer would be receiving (in addition to the initial contract sum for design) some residual payments in the form of royalties based on sales - which would be locked in for a particular amount of time - at which time it could be extended (or should they not be able to come to terms) the designer could take it to another firm.

None of this is unusual........ in fact it is pretty much the norm.

I would not design a studio for anyone with the intent that they were going to try to mass produce it - selling franchises for the design - unless I was getting a pretty penny as a part of each sale....... and if that was not their intent - then there is no reason for anyone but me to own the rights to the design.

I would also point out that I would not take anything I had designed and use it in any other clients space....

All of my designs are unique, one of a kind spaces specific to that client. I do however have a library of details I have designed that are used when the conditions fit - just so that I do not have to detail the same things over and over again - redundancy just does not make sense...

Sincerely,

Rod

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by ten21studio

Hi Audio

Although Rod may be needing gas and air to get over the shock of me agreeing with him, he is right and rightly so. I think that studio design is a bit of a vocation and the least designers can expect is to retain copyright of their designs.

Sean,

Nope - no gas needed - nor any shock.......

I have thought all along that you are a reasonable person...... this just proves that I was correct in that assumption,

Rod

[CaptCrunch]

Originally Posted by ten21studio

Well I hate to piss on your bonfire Rod but they have closed their doors to studio designing, hence the reason for the book. Of course they're still trading, in order to sell the book, but when I recently referred a new studio build to Roger in March this year, his response was this (copied straight from his email reply)

"Your contact - a bit too late for us to get involved - our design doors really do close April 1st - 24th anniversary.

Armed with The Book (and your experience), I honestly think you could continue to steer this guy in the right direction on your own. All the details for anything that may be required are in it (plus, your two pages look great by the way!)."

From the horses mouth!

Do you know if Black Box is closing its operations as well? I had wanted to get a pair of their monitor stands and just never got around to doing anything.

[Analogue Kid]

Yes, I believe both of Rogers operations have closed.

If you want me to ask him for you just drop me a pm with you e mail on and will ask Roger for you.

Best


Andy

Originally Posted by CaptCrunch

Do you know if Black Box is closing its operations as well? I had wanted to get a pair of their monitor stands and just never got around to doing anything.

[bassjam]

I spoke to Roger today, as a book owner you have access to the support section on the www.aaa-design.com website.

In this part of the website there are details of the manufacturers who make the speaker stands and other blackbox products. These manufacturers can be contacted directly to place an order.

Greg

[clip6]

FedEx guy just dropped off my copy.

Wow. You will not be disappointed.

Price of admission one plugin but the book will still work in 5yrs.

Many thanks to Roger and his team.

[TanTan]

Waking up this old thread to say I've got a copy of Roger's book a few months ago and it's by far the best, most informative and most inspiring studio design book I've ever seen. I think this book is a must for anyone who is building a studio.

My partner and I are building a new room following 100% the book specs.. will post some pics soon !

[kasmira]

Originally Posted by TanTan

Waking up this old thread to say I've got a copy of Roger's book a few months ago and it's by far the best, most informative and most inspiring studio design book I've ever seen. I think this book is a must for anyone who is building a studio.

My partner and I are building a new room following 100% the book specs.. will post some pics soon !

What other books do you have on the subject, for comparison?

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by kasmira

What other books do you have on the subject, for comparison?

Bit of a loaded question that. Some authors of other books are members of this forum.

I have read other studio design books as well but RA-The Book, by far, eclipses the others available.

[OpusOfTrolls]

In RA, they have the concept of the same panels you are using on the ceiling of your control room, bassjam. This is all I found out about them without buying the book. Are these panels a Helmholtz absorber? Or a diffuser?

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls

In RA, they have the concept of the same panels you are using on the ceiling of your control room, bassjam. This is all I found out about them without buying the book. Are these panels a Helmholtz absorber? Or a diffuser?

Our build is a RA design.

Yes the panels are helm-holtz resonators which also diffuse.

When we put them up, we couldn't believe the difference they made to the room.

Greg

[kasmira]

Originally Posted by bassjam

Bit of a loaded question that. Some authors of other books are members of this forum.

I have read other studio design books as well but RA-The Book, by far, eclipses the others available.

There is always advantages and disadvantages in every book. MHOA for example, is a great literature on room acoustics - but has not much to do with any other field of acoustics. My main question was what other books do you have, and why do you like this one more? What insight does it give over other studio construction books?

Genuine curiosity, not trying to say anyone's book is better as I haven't read it.

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by kasmira

There is always advantages and disadvantages in every book. MHOA for example, is a great literature on room acoustics - but has not much to do with any other field of acoustics. My main question was what other books do you have, and why do you like this one more? What insight does it give over other studio construction books?

Genuine curiosity, not trying to say anyone's book is better as I haven't read it.

Ahh well, the main benefit over other books is that a large proportion of this book is made up of plans and literature about actual studios that have been built over the last twenty years. You can read what was done and why. This, along with the theory side of the book enables you to use the book as a guide to build your own room. You can bet that if you have an issue with anything studio wise, RA have had the same issues over the past 20 years.

Also it's A3 in size and contains big full colour photographs on heavy glossy paper. It's a joy to flick through as well as read intensely.

Greg

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by kasmira

What other books do you have on the subject, for comparison?

I have many of them, but I'm sure not all of them

The RA book is not a regular acoustics formulas book, it's not covering every possible option and teaching you how to design any kind of diffuser or the difference between live end dead end and non environment CR. the book teaches how to build a Roger D'arcy room which is exactly what I want after working in many rooms he has designed and they are probably the best CR's I've ever worked in, in terms of acoustics, aesthetics, and working experience and Roger didn't spare any part, it's all in the book. From floating floors to cable tunnels from acoustic doors and windows to how to manage a studio build and of course how to build Roger's amazing acoustic treatments (black box system)

[ramil]

I'm planning to purchase RA book purely because it provides a lot of studio design examples with drawings etc.. there is plenty of theoretical information on studio design on internet or books... Philip Newell Recording Studio Design Book + RA should be killer combo!

[jonessy]

Sorry to barge in, but...

Recording studio design is an art and a philosophy, backed by a solid technical understanding. It is not a methodology.

Scientific texts such as Kuttruff, Beranek, Kinsler & Frey etc.., will provide the solid technical understanding.

Books such as RA, Phil Newell's and Rod's, will help you achieve technical excellence by providing precise construction details, 'hands-on' tips and sample solutions for common problems.

Neither will, however, teach you how to design studios, at least not in context of room acoustics (sound isolation is an entirely different beast).

Attempts to quantify the design of critical listening spaces have failed miserably in the past, and the pursuit of magic formulae is as adventurous as trying to find equations that describe a "good" interior design or a "good" piece of architecture.

I always find it amusing that people stick to a hard methodology (e.g. "the reflection must be at least 20dB lower") rather than understanding the underlying philosophy.

[boggy]

Originally Posted by jonessy

..............
I always find it amusing that people stick to a hard methodology (e.g. "the reflection must be at least 20dB lower") rather than understanding the underlying philosophy.

Excellent point! Philosophy can lead you, even when your methodology doesn't fit in some particular case (because whatever reason)...
+1

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by jonessy

Sorry to barge in, but...

Recording studio design is an art and a philosophy, backed by a solid technical understanding. It is not a methodology.

Scientific texts such as Kuttruff, Beranek, Kinsler & Frey etc.., will provide the solid technical understanding.

Books such as RA, Phil Newell's and Rod's, will help you achieve technical excellence by providing precise construction details, 'hands-on' tips and sample solutions for common problems.

Neither will, however, teach you how to design studios, at least not in context of room acoustics (sound isolation is an entirely different beast).

Attempts to quantify the design of critical listening spaces have failed miserably in the past, and the pursuit of magic formulae is as adventurous as trying to find equations that describe a "good" interior design or a "good" piece of architecture.

I always find it amusing that people stick to a hard methodology (e.g. "the reflection must be at least 20dB lower") rather than understanding the underlying philosophy.

Have you read RA-The Book?

Its not a "how to" book, it's documenting how RA did it over a 20 year period. Your post doesn't really stand up in this case.

[jonessy]

To answer your question, yes. I have had a look at the book.

Its not a "how to" book, it's documenting how RA did it over a 20 year period. Your post doesn't really stand up in this case.

I'm not sure I understand how is this different. For me, "documenting how I did it" or "how to do it", is pretty much the same thing.

To quote the RA website:

This is not a theoretical guide but a detailed presentation of tried and tested techniques as applied to real, built projects - in many of the case studies, the actual drawings issued for construction are reproduced.

How is this in contrast with what I wrote:

Books such as RA, Phil Newell's and Rod's, will help you achieve technical excellence by providing precise construction details, 'hands-on' tips and sample solutions for common problems.

[bassjam]

Because how to do it is theoretical and formulaic. How they did it does not rely on theory or formulae. RA was headed up by an architect, not an acoustician therefore designs and artistic flair features very heavily in RA studios.

[jonessy]

I'm sorry, but "how to do it" is quite the opposite of "theoretical and formulaic". I, for one, have never met a good studio designer who relies solely on equations and hard methodologies. These stuff are reserved to physics class in college.

But hey, whatever...

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by jonessy

I'm sorry, but "how to do it" is quite the opposite of "theoretical and formulaic". I, for one, have never met a good studio designer who relies solely on equations and hard methodologies. These stuff are reserved to physics class in college.

But hey, whatever...

I agree, that's my point!

[unit7]

Bassjam, thanks for the heads up about this book, just got it! Other than that I have to say that this thread is pretty worthless if your looking for info about it, just as so many other derailed threads here. I've been in the business for 30 yrs as musician/arranger/producer, currently having a nice little mix room + small iso booth, and dreaming about getting a bigger place before getting too old for all this, I find the book VERY inspiring and extremely generous with ideas, solutions and details. Though the RA style (design, colours etc) isn't at all what I like to work in (prefer bohemian, homey, not so office/clinical looking style), I know I'll return to this beautiful book over and over again for inspiration for a possible project in the future. After seeing all the nice words about Gervais book, I've just ordered that too.
Cheers
Paul

[andrebrito]

Originally Posted by bassjam

Because how to do it is theoretical and formulaic. How they did it does not rely on theory or formulae. RA was headed up by an architect, not an acoustician therefore designs and artistic flair features very heavily in RA studios.

So they do it using divine inspiration ?

Do you want me to believe someone studies the acoustics of spaces (and I am not talking about studios, I am talking about any kind of space, even a concert hall) without any kind of theoretical approach ? And stays in the business for 25 years without any kind of "scientific" approach...

This sound really naive.

I have worked with architects on every possible project you might think of in terms of acoustic, recording studios, concert halls, churches etc. You can bet there are always theoretical models and approaches involved as well as there are architectural and visual considerations.

[avare]

Originally Posted by unit7

I know I'll return to this beautiful book over and over again for inspiration for a possible project in the future. After seeing all the nice words about Gervais book, I've just ordered that too.

Great aquisitions! I suggest adding Master Handbook of Acoustics to you library. Further, Rose's Guide to Acoustic Practice. That is free. There is link to it in my Acoustics/Reference Guide post.

Enjoy!

[unit7]

Originally Posted by avare

Great aquisitions! I suggest adding Master Handbook of Acoustics to you library. Further, Rose's Guide to Acoustic Practice. That is free. There is link to it in my Acoustics/Reference Guide post.

Enjoy!

Thx for the tips! Ordered/downloaded both!

[ramil]

Ok as we speak about theoretical design etc how many of you guys use software simulation packages for studio design such as EASE?

[andrebrito]

I use CATT for all my work , even on smaller spaces, although there is a frequency range limitation that is reliable due to software/physics limitations.

I have used low frequency BEM software prediction as well but it is so time consuming that I rarely use it now unless the client has $ for this.

I use it mainly because on some rooms I work I like to add diffusion. Also modern studio designs are requiring less dry control rooms than the typical NE rooms so a software tool like that is also useful. Even in NE rooms CATT can be useful. It is not the software that designs the room, it is the person. The software is just a tool to assist and it has its own problemas and complexities as well advantages over traditional prediction tools.

With increase of demand for acoustics for home cinema, home studios and the fact that people are getting used to listen to their sound systems in "normal" living spaces we are slowly moving away from dry spaces.

[Rockenberry]

Right,

For those who remember me posting here on GS, I am in no way an expert in the field of acoustics. I am how ever building my own studio and have some building experience.

I have done a lot of research and bought quite a few books including Rod's book and the master handbook of acoustics.

I am in no way biased. I have therefore purchased the RA The Book and await delivery.

As soon as it arrives I will post a detailed (well, as detailed as I can make it), review for GS readers.

I don't think it has been done already, well.... not by anyone who the general census believes not to be biased anyway.

Watch this space.

Rock.

[gullfo]

Originally Posted by ramil

Ok as we speak about theoretical design etc how many of you guys use software simulation packages for studio design such as EASE?

ABEC, but per Andre B i only use it for larger $ projects because it tends to be time consuming to generate the models. mainly i use many custom spreadsheets for computations.