LEDE diffuse live area or not?

[The Digital Owl]

Hello there,

I am going for the LEDE (live end dead end) approach to my studio. The reason being it's one room and needs to be a live room and a control room. The room has 7 corners. The 4 big corners have Big Superchunk Basstraps with 32" face, the 2 small corners have mini-Superchunk basstraps with 10" face. The 7th corner has a door there and may or may not have treatment there in the future. The 'dead end' will be heavily dampened with more porous material (insulation) of a complete coverage cloud and several floor-based 7ft x 2ft panels next to each other covering almost every inch of the 'dead end' half of the room (all of wall A, over half of wall B, and nearly half of wall J)

Now the 'live end' is where I have wondered whether I should buy/make some sort of diffusors for. Acoustic instruments and vocals shall be recorded here. There is a 10" high chipboard stage with 8" insulation inside it, and 3 sizes of holes drilled into the side face of the stage to allow some sound to pass through. The stage (live area) has a smaller surface area within the dead half and it's majority in the live end. But the musicians' backs will have a Superchunk and a mini-Superchunk behind them which are already in place (one big Superchunk covering walls D and E and one small corner mini-Superchunk walls C and D) both covering the odd small cut-out area in my room. So it's the left and right hand side-walls I'm considering some form of diffusor coverage. Irrelevant or not, I just thought I'd mention, that my floor is completely carpeted but the dead half has concrete underneath the carpet, and the live half has wooden boards underneath the carpet. Of course the stage is not carpeted but is around half ontop of the carpeted concrete floor and half ontop of the carpeted wooden floor. Also the walls are a mixture of brick and concrete block except (gulp) the left side of the musician's stage (wall E), the back wall of the studio (wall G) and the wall joining these two walls (wall F): which are all studded walls.

I know the above may be alot to keep up with but please bear with it as I want genuine help here. Cheers :-)

As the pictures (partly) show the back-side wall has a couple of CD towers, 2 old bedside tables stacked ontop of another with various depths and objects in them, and a library with books and magazines in. The back wall has a high tower shelving unit with office files, folders, boxes, equipment, etc. in. All of these have to stay in place at the moment. I know it's not perfect diffusion or absorption but does certainly break up the sound in that area to some degree. When they leave the room they shall be replaced with either diffusion or absorption. But will be dealt with then, not now. I'll have 7ft panels that can be put infront (or behind) them if necessary in the 'now'.

1. (picture 1) So the the stage (live area) is 'hidden' in the front half of the live end due to the studded wall E. Are the walls (B & E) too close to the musician for effective diffusion to take place and a waste of money buying or time by making large diffusors? I'm happy to cover about 4ft wide x 7ft high diffusors completely covering the musicians' left hand side-walls (E) if that makes a difference to your answers. Perhaps the same dimensions or slightly less for the musician's right hand side wall (B). Remember I can always use my 7ft panels infront of the diffusors if I need a temporarily deader stage area.

2. (picture 2) Do I need to put diffusors on the wall (J) which is opposite musician's right hand side-wall for room equilibrium?

3. (picture 3) Shall I put diffusors above the musicians' head on the stage, or continue the 'dead end' complete coverage cloud over to the live end part of the stage?

4. (picture 4) If I should continue the absorption cloud, and not have a diffuse cloud at all, shall I continue this absorption cloud to the back wall G?

5. (picture 5 & 6) I'm thinking diffusors on the studded wall left of musician by stage may help theoretically 'push' that wall further away perhaps to line up with my actual back-wall creating a more rectangular room instead of a kind of L-Shape that it currently is. Hopefully this will improve my stereo imaging from the monitors, especially if I get some mid-field monitors and end up widening my current back-wall reflection points onto this wall E (effectively becoming another back-wall). Am I right on this in your opinion? Or do you think being so close to some diffusion on side and part back-wall is a bad thing and I should just place absorbers in front of the diffusors on Wall E and B whilst mixing?


6. What type of diffusors do I need to put up (either make or buy pre-made) for the uses I want - acoustic instruments and vocals. I used different types in the pictures as not sure which type I’d need where.
Or maybe you all think it’s the wrong way to go with diffusion in this sized studio and that I should just place absorption panels in those places instead?



Hope you can help on the above 6 questions.


Kind Regards,

The Digital Owl.

[The Digital Owl]

Over 100 views but no-one knows how to help, huh?

Have I made it too complicated? Should I seperate the questions into different threads then?

Hmmmm (scratches head)

[gullfo]

i think overall it's a decent approach - having the mix position symmetrical relative to the treatments - good, having the musician position asymmetrical to the treatments - also good, some of the reflections from the large diffuser and the back wall probably need some consideration - maybe a heavy drape for the large diffuser to reduce reflections off it when mixing, and on the back wall some large absorbers behind the shelves and on the door. the stage looks like you are trying to make it something like an absorber - you might be better served by making that a fully damped membrane to avoid possible resonances where the framing under it causes it to act more like a drum head - consider 4" rigid insulation with 3x 3/4" MDF and 1x 3/4" plywood + flooring. this will be a stable and massive panel which has little chance of resonating at a frequency you will have a problem with and in fact will likely provide more absorption on the low end than the one pictured.

[The Digital Owl]

Hey Glen,

Thanks alot for the advice, glad I have brought all the mass of knowledge gained over gosh knows how long to an acceptable method. Much of the design has already been done including the stage. Please see photos below. Each cutout has two stacked 4" (= 8" in total) slabs of rigid insulation underneath on wood frames (in shapes of cut-outs). These actually protrude ever so slightly and get pushed down by the lid, so hopefiully dampens possible lid resonances?

This took ages and would be quite a wounder if you (now knowing exactly what's underneath stage lid) still think it's a bit like a drum (a hinderance to the music) rather than a help. If so are you saying to build new floor (no stage at all) or put another floor ontop of the stage? Your opinion is still wanted either way though just er please be gentle

I forgot to add anything to the back wall before posting, but was unsure whether I should diffuse the back wall (and door) or absorb, so I left it untouched before posting. The LEDE concept would have me diffuse it, but seeeing as that wall (G) is further than the stage big diffusor wall (E) behind mix position I wondered if absorption would be the better way to go (as you mentioned). So I wouldn't be exactly LEDE this way but more hybrid.

Any thoughts are welcomed on the use of diffusors instead of absorbers for back wall and door if you please.

Kind Regards,

The Digital Owl

[gullfo]

i think if the frame support the top is suspended on the insulation (which is also in full contact with the top panel) then you're in good shape. my main concern when i see these things with an air gap or direct contact that results in a problem.

[The Digital Owl]

So how about the back wall and door having diffusors on (to fulfil the LEDE concept) instead of absorbers? Is it a bad & old fashioned idea?

[gullfo]

unless you lose the shelves, you're better off with POA.

[The Digital Owl]

Originally Posted by gullfo

unless you lose the shelves, you're better off with POA.

Sorry to be dumb but what does "POA" stand for in this instance? Google brings up so many possibilities.

[gullfo]

"plain old absorber"

[The Digital Owl]

OK Cheers.

Is the diffusor above musician's head too close and perhaps not best, would I be better off continuing the absorption cloud over musician's head instead and infact all the way to the back wall (G)? My concern is when mixing that having a small amount of diffusive ceiling to my back right (and not to my left) is obviously unbalanced but perhaps going to bring some confusion. Hence wondering if the best OVERALL approach would be absorption throughout the entire ceiling. Thoughts?

Cheers for your help thusfar Glen, it's much appreciated!

Kind Regards.

[gullfo]

it's relative - the proximity to the walls themselves are more likely to have a material shaping of the sound than some mid-HF diffusion behind the performer...

[The Digital Owl]

Originally Posted by gullfo

it's relative - the proximity to the walls themselves are more likely to have a material shaping of the sound than some mid-HF diffusion behind the performer...

Would it best to try to 'eliminate' the close walls with absorption instead of using diffusors then?

[DanDan]

Very early reflections can be very destructive. Unless your diffusor is designed for close range I would recommend absorption.
I am told, and I believe it, that Space Couplers under an absorptive cloud are very nice. Perhaps more importantly they appear to be harmless.
I am also told that Space Arrays are designed to be benign up close. Audibly, they are, but the Couplers sound nicer to me up close.
DD

[The Digital Owl]

OK so ignoring the cloud now, and only talking about the walls, of the different type of diffusors which would be best? The same for all walls (B, E, G and J)?

[gullfo]

you could go with a diffractal approach - target mids and HF. then again, maybe a reversible - absorber on the back and diffuser on the front? you might just build the diffuser and test it. the proximity effect needs to be evaluated under actual conditions to be sure. like any room, some instruments sound good in some places and not other do to the room responses.