Proper Speaker Height?

[Keith Moore]

I have a pair of Dynaudio BM6A's These guys: http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/Default.asp?Id=280

I emailed Dynaudio about the preferred speaker height in relation to ear level and they said there is none. So for audio engineering where should I set these? Is it as simple as tweeter to ear level?

[boggy]

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

...... Is it as simple as tweeter to ear level?

Yes, if manufacturer doesn't provide any better information.

Cheers,

Boggy

[Jens Eklund]

Whats the Ideal monitor height?

[rez]

the manual states to position the speakers in a way the "horizontal plane and the vertical plane is aiming at the listening position".
since they are not saying that the tweeter should aim at the listening position, the bm6a seems to be phase aligned between the tweeter and the woofer and thus the middle of the monitor should point at your ear.

now what shall we think about a manufacturer of studio monitors (e.g. accoustic experts) who do not know how to place their own product?

peace, rez

[boggy]

Originally Posted by rez

.....
since they are not saying that the tweeter should aim at the listening position, the bm6a seems to be phase aligned between the tweeter and the woofer and thus the middle of the monitor should point at your ear.

Not necessarily

Originally Posted by rez

now what shall we think about a manufacturer of studio monitors (e.g. accoustic experts) who do not know how to place their own product?

I'm pretty sure that manufacturer and especially designer knows exactly how they measured their loudspeakers , and possibly only person that responds to Keith's email doesn't know this information (it can be expected, if this information wasn't in user manual )

BTW, rimshot sound (sample) played in the loop we used sometimes for finding point where phases of midwoofer and tweeter are in the best "harmony" (this means monitor height relatively to ears). Some ear practice may be needed... but trained professionals will find this point "automatically"

Hope this helps

Boggy

[jhbrandt]

+1

- Note: We often recommend that the speakers are placed 'as low as possible' to eliminate early reflections off work surfaces. In some cases, part of the woofer may be obscured by console or desk without affecting the response.
Most often it is about compromise as speaker placement in a room full of equipment, desks, & console can become an acoustic minefield.

Cheers,
John

[rez]

Originally Posted by boggy

possibly only person that responds to Keith's email doesn't know this information (it can be expected, if this information wasn't in user manual )

yes, i know that it was probably some office person, but that is their job! if they don´t know something they have to ask someone inhouse who knows the answer. everything else is no good customer relation.

also this kind of question from the customer should lead to a revision of the user manual if there is no specific answer in it , or no answer at all.

this monitors are not that big, so testing a few different heights is not much work. and then keep the height that gives the best results.

peace, rez

[psykostx]

Measure them yourself if you want the best results. Play some pink noise and point an earthworks or similar mic at them 1 meter away. Wherever you find the desired balance, that's where you want your ears to "point"...

[Keith Moore]

Originally Posted by rez

yes, i know that it was probably some office person, but that is their job! if they don´t know something they have to ask someone inhouse who knows the answer. everything else is no good customer relation.

peace, rez

In their defense they did inquire to the "technical" team before answering. Still I agree that there should be more specific information being that it is Dynaudio.

I was hoping for a more concrete answer to this inquiry so I could simply cut down a pair if speaker stands to the proper height. Being that my hope hasn't been just that can anyone recommend some adjustable speaker stands other than sound anchors that would be suffice for BM6A's?

[Keith Moore]

Originally Posted by psykostx

Measure them yourself if you want the best results. Play some pink noise and point an earthworks or similar mic at them 1 meter away. Wherever you find the desired balance, that's where you want your ears to "point"...

Is there a specific software you'd use in conjunction with this test? I'm a decent engineer I believe but listening to pink noise I'm not sure I'd know what I'd be looking for as far as positive or negative results.

:-/

[boggy]

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

Is there a specific software you'd use in conjunction with this test? I'm a decent engineer I believe but listening to pink noise I'm not sure I'd know what I'd be looking for as far as positive or negative results.

:-/

I agree with you, AFAIK, with pink noise isn't possible to find proper speaker height in room in regards to phase alignment between tweeter and midrange driver, even with measurement microphone, not only with ears, if we don't know what we catch.
Instead of this try to adjust height when listen rimshot (in the loop) as I suggest above, choose height that sounds best (most natural) to you.
With sound of rimshot, you will use your natural audio memory for sounds that you listen very often.
Rimshot is similar to Dirac pulse, Dirac pulse is used for acoustical measurements.

Cheers,

Boggy.

[Keith Moore]

Originally Posted by boggy

I agree with you, AFAIK, with pink noise isn't possible to find proper speaker height in room in regards to phase alignment between tweeter and midrange driver, even with measurement microphone, not only with ears, if we don't know what we catch.
Instead of this try to adjust height when listen rimshot (in the loop) as I suggest above, choose height that sounds best (most natural) to you.
With sound of rimshot, you will use your natural audio memory for sounds that you listen very often.
Rimshot is similar to Dirac pulse, Dirac pulse is used for acoustical measurements.

Cheers,

Boggy.

So by "rimshot" you mean a simple audio sample of a snare drum rimshot? As of right now I'm having a hard time imagining what tonal value I'd hear that tells me "this is the proper height!!!". So can you give me a slight hint as to what I will be searching for? Once I start testing it might become obvious but I'd rather go into this fully educated the first time and get it right instead of frustrated.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. I will definitely post back my final results.

Also some adjustable speaker stand suggestions would be great as well.

[boggy]

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

So by "rimshot" you mean a simple audio sample of a snare drum rimshot?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

As of right now I'm having a hard time imagining what tonal value I'd hear that tells me "this is the proper height!!!".

Target tonal value may be "most natural that you can find". Some training/experimentation may be needed. Try to relax your ears after that, then try again tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

So can you give me a slight hint as to what I will be searching for? Once I start testing it might become obvious but I'd rather go into this fully educated the first time and get it right instead of frustrated.

Try to find best sounding height, most natural sounding rimshoot. If you can't decide, or all sounds the same, then height possibly isn't that important, or at least, isn't a first priority.

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

Thanks again to everyone for your help. I will definitely post back my final results.

NP, you are welcome.

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

Also some adjustable speaker stand suggestions would be great as well.

There are some cheap stands that can be adjusted, but they isn't good because they ring like bell, then you can use it temporarily until you find right height (put some books or similar below speakers to fine adjust height). After that, you can build a heavy DIY stands with proper height.


Cheap adjustable stands looks like this QuikLok's BS-300 (or any similar is ok temporarily, click on picture):



And don't believe in weight capacity that is noted in product specifications!!! About half of claimed weight can broke it.

Cheers,

Boggy

[dvuckovic]

The thing you want to listen to is the moment when the transient has the most definition. Depending on the sample you're using, you'll hear energy around 200-250 Hz matching the upper mids, and starting to sound fuller.

[Keith Moore]

Originally Posted by boggy

Target tonal value may be "most natural that you can find". Some training/experimentation may be needed. Try to relax your ears after that, then try again tomorrow.

Cheers,

Boggy

Originally Posted by dvuckovic

The thing you want to listen to is the moment when the transient has the most definition. Depending on the sample you're using, you'll hear energy around 200-250 Hz matching the upper mids, and starting to sound fuller.

This all sounds right to me, I'm going to rig together something for a temporary stand to play with height. I'm assuming doing this test with a single speaker will be fine? I will post my findings in the end so that maybe this post can help someone with BM6A's in the future.

Thanks again everyone.

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

Is there a specific software you'd use in conjunction with this test? I'm a decent engineer I believe but listening to pink noise I'm not sure I'd know what I'd be looking for as far as positive or negative results.

:-/

Has to be done with mono noise played on stereo speakers, low volume. It works. Sounds crazy, but it works. You can figure height and LR spacing this way quite easily. Again, it sounds nutz... but it works. It's a dynamic process just watch an analyzer graph as you move stuff around. It isn't the most scientific method, or maybe not even scientific at all... but it yields very quick and satisfactory results. Seems more scientific than the rimshot method if you asked me...but the rimshot method is also another trick I use after the noise test to fine tune.

[boggy]

Originally Posted by Keith Moore

...... I'm assuming doing this test with a single speaker will be fine?

Yes, second one you may place symmetrical to the first tested, then check again. Single speaker for beginning, then use both... etc... until you find the best position.

Originally Posted by psykostx

Has to be done with mono noise played on stereo speakers, low volume......

Acoustical measurements and positioning is always done with single loudspeaker, left or right.

For Windows, and for positioning (in room only, not for proper height) with microphone, I use Spectrum Analuzer that exist in ARTA, with Periodic White Noise (PN White) generator setup... you may see in manual, it is great and detailed.

ARTA Download

Cheers

Boggy.

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by boggy

Yes, second one you may place symmetrical to the first tested, then check again. Single speaker for beginning, then use both... etc... until you find the best position.


Acoustical measurements and positioning is always done with single loudspeaker, left or right.

For Windows, and for positioning (in room only, not for proper height) with microphone, I use Spectrum Analuzer that exist in ARTA, with Periodic White Noise (PN White) generator setup... you may see in manual, it is great and detailed.

ARTA Download
Cheers

Boggy.

... you just said start with one speaker then do both....
what I said really works for me, very well, and fast. It may not be the right way to do it, but for quick setups of nearfields, it's what I do and it works. White noise or pink, doesn't matter, it's not the curve, it's the phasing, hence why you need two speakers with mono noise. I've discussed this on another post and others have agreed that it's a good method to set up by ear even... you want to get it so the noise sounds like it's coming from everywhere in the sound field. I usually find measurements to match up with what my ears tell me. To each his own... some people spend days on waterfall graphs and modal simulations... I've never gotten great results that way personally... unfortunately science and math are only tools to measure reality, they don't define it. If you don't have all the factors available for measurement, which is most often the case, then the simplest answer is the best, for me.