Advice on treating my studio space

[Caatalyst]

Hey everyone,

I'm moving house pretty soon and I've been kindly allocated a room to setup for studio work by my mrs .

I've worked out a plan for how I want the space to be laid out that seems most practical, but I now need to work out whats the best for treating the acoustics.

I've uploaded a picture (see attached studio design jpeg) which shows the dimensions of the space and the objects that are going to be in it. I would appreciate it anybody could provide me with any suggestions regarding the layout and presentation. There are two alcoves on one side of the room and I'm not sure what to do with them.

I've also got access to some acoustic foam. I can buy it from the place where I practice with my band (Other image upload).

The only problem is I'm not sure what frequencies these tame, how many I need, and where to put them.

I've been reading some guides but its a little over my head and there seems to be so many different types of treatment.

If anybody has any advice I would be extremely grateful.

Caatalyst

[Jens Eklund]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6507362-post2.html

[ritelec]

Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE!


Start reading......lots here.

You may want to hold off the the foam for now.

This link is nice too.

Listen to the Music, Not the Room

[DanDan]

As you are moving soon, how about working on headphones for a while?
If you do treat, try to stick to portable solutions. Traps on legs/stands or ones that will easily hang on the walls or ceiling.

There is plenty to read there! However it is of a very mixed level, from beginners guide to Research papers.
I think the most considered writing for newbies is at
RealTraps, GIK, johnlsayers.com, studiotips.com

Don't get the foam. DIY or commercial fibre panels are the way to go.
Alcoves are a pest. Either use em or lose em. Put racks or bookcases or organs or empty flightcases or whatever in there. Or fill them with traps.

Or use them. Try the speakers in the alcoves, flush with the bit sticking into the room. This is a bit like soffit mounting. I have had success like this.



DD

[Caatalyst]

cheers guys, I'll have a look through those articles see if they shed anymore light.

Why do you guys suggest not going for the foam? I can get it for next to nothing and I thought it might help but I'm not sure where to place it.

As for going DIY, thats a nice thought but I wouldnt have a clue where to start and whats right for my space.

[DanDan]

Do a search on the foam thing. You wouldn't be the first to ask that question.....
If really is acoustic foam, it is useful for killing flutter echoes.
DD

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

As for going DIY, thats a nice thought but I wouldnt have a clue where to start and whats right for my space.

If you are willing to be guided, there are many knowledgeable, helpful, patient and professional people on the forum. They will guide you in the things you do not know. If you are not happy doing some things yourself then stick around and find out what needs to be done so that you know what you are asking of someone else.

[Caatalyst]

Yeah thats precisely it. I've been looking into this for a while now and I've spent a few hours reading tonight but I'm digesting everything real slow.

This is above my head and I could just do with some advice to kick start what I'm trying to do.

I found a guide on bass trapping but it seems that when I learn something new more questions arise. For example, The bass trap making guide suggests 1 metre in height. Yet even sat down in my listening position I will be at least 1.5 meteres above the floor. Does this mean I need to fix the bass traps to the wall so that they are at the same height as my ears?

I appreciate everybody sending me the links but reading lots of technical jargan isn't really helping me understand. I could do with knowing what materials work and where to place them. For example one guide suggests using mini traps for ER yet I cant find anything on mini traps on the internet on how to make them or where to buy them.

[DanDan]

I think the most considered writing for newbies is at
RealTraps, GIK, johnlsayers.com, studiotips.com

RealTraps make MiniTraps.

DD

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

... reading lots of technical jargan isn't really helping me understand. I could do with knowing what materials work and where to place them.

Let me explain what you need and where you need it.

Do you know that muffled sound you get in a cinema? That is a dead sound, meaning that not much sound is bouncing off the walls. If you listen carefully, it is the high frequencies that have disappeared more than the bass. The opposite, the sound in your bathroom, is where, because of the tiled surfaces, the sound bounces around uncontrolled. Set up your monitors and try working in the bathroom and you won't get far.

What we do first of all is to get technical and take measurements, but let's skip that for a moment. What we need to do is to trap the sound. Just as a kitchen cloth absorbs a pool of water, so traps absorb sound. That's why you will read about absorption and traps.

We know that as sound bounces around a room, the bass is worse in the corners so a common first step is to put traps in the corners of your room, from floor to ceiling. Then there are the corners between walls and ceiling (and if you are keen and have the space, the corners between the walls and the floors too). Look at all the red coloured traps in this picture from the topic 30 panels:



Okay, that's the corners. Have you ever played pool, billiards or snooker? On a pool table the ball can be hit and go straight to a pocket or bounce off one or more edges. It will either come to a halt because it ends up in a pocket or because it ran out of energy.

Sound is similar. The sound coming from your speakers travels across the room, some direct to your ears (that's what you want) while some bounces off the boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor and more) and either eventually reaches your ears or runs out of energy. Unlike on the pool table where we were thinking about one ball, one speaker emits sound and you hear the same sound directly and indirectly. The indirect (bounced off the walls) sound will reach your ears a fraction of a second later. A sound from the left speaker can bounce and arrive at your right ear and vice versa. So now, you are not hearing what was recorded but multiple versions, fractions of a second later and sometimes in the wrong stereo position.

How do we stop those unwanted bounced copies of the sound? More traps, this time at what we call the mirror (or first reflection) points. If you have someone hold a mirror on the walls, ceiling and floor, everywhere you can see one of your speakers, you know that is a boundary that sound can bounce once and come right back at you.

In the picture above look at the blue traps on the walls and the grey traps on the ceiling, which we call a cloud. These cover those first reflection points.

So that is what you are aiming at doing and why. Because each room is different we then tread beyond the general task to your specific situation, and that's where measurements come in. If not, you could end up with a cinema-like muffled sound where some frequencies have been killed while others still cause problems. With your speakers, a microphone and a computer with the right software you can measure the sound charateristics of your room, post them here and get specific advice on how to go about the task of treating your room.

I am still learning so cannot guide you through doing the measurements and how to understand them. When you are ready, just say and someone will walk you through the relevant steps.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

Yeah thats precisely it. I've been looking into this for a while now and I've spent a few hours reading tonight but I'm digesting everything real slow.

This is above my head and I could just do with some advice to kick start what I'm trying to do...

I appreciate everybody sending me the links but reading lots of technical jargan isn't really helping me understand. I could do with knowing what materials work and where to place them. For example one guide suggests using mini traps for ER yet I cant find anything on mini traps on the internet on how to make them or where to buy them.

Basically, if you want to build bass traps with insulation (rigid insulation, rockwool, etc, etc) you'll want to find Owens Corning 703, or something similar. Go to the Reference guide under 7b to find different kinds. I used Roxul RHT 60 because it was cheapest and was actually a tiny bit better than OC703. Really, you just need to wrap the trap in acoustically transparent fabric. Many people use muslin or felt. Lots of info here on how to make these traps. I read through the bass trap stickies a lot when I made my first traps.

People here really like it when you test your room, so downloading Room EQ Wizard (2i in the reference) will probably be a good move. It seems a bit complicated, but really it's not. Just play with it, and search around here and in the REW forum. Again, lots of info on troubleshooting that. DanDan's primer (2e) is great, but might be a bit much when you're first trying to hook it up. You'll need an omni mic for REW, I use one of the RadioShack meters, I know there's a Behringer mic people like too.

Section 2a-d in the reference is all about set-up in the room, but with your alcoves, you're might be better off asking more questions. Like DanDan said, try playing around with em if you can. You might stumble upon a placement that works. I'm no expert but maybe even try the wall where the organ is, or opposite the organ, between the alcoves. I had my previous desk set up similar to that and it actually wasn't too bad.


I understand about reading all those links. I think the ones I pointed out should get you going in the right direction. People can give more specific advice once you get started =)


EDIT: I just read Starlight's post, that's a good one to read a few times

[Caatalyst]

Guys thank you so much. I'm really sorry if I came across as an another annoying n00b. Having just read that simplified guide has helped me understand what it is I'm working towards.

As soon as I move I will run some of those software based test and post the results on here.

Thanks again so much.

Caatalyst

[Tom Higgins]

Starlight: That was a great explanation.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

Guys thank you so much. I'm really sorry if I came across as an another annoying n00b. Having just read that simplified guide has helped me understand what it is I'm working towards.

Don't worry about it. I'm the one who posted the sticky, but I didn't intend for it to be a book that gets thrown at you. Like DanDan has said, there's too much in there at so many different levels, I can see how it gets confusing. Same with other links. Just take it one step at a time, and keep asking questions

I might have to edit the sticky with a link to Starlight's post. It's a good one.

[Caatalyst]

Hey everybody!,

I'm back and I'm in my new house. I've just set up all the gear in the listening room. I haven't applied any acoustic treatment as of yet because I wanted to see what the room had to offer. Everything seems audible okay except for a bass boom which seems to correspond to the sub frequency content you might expect to find in a bass guitar, around 150hz.

Anyway I've a test using Room E.Q and I was hoping you guys could help me make sense of it and what the best cause of action is .

I've uploaded images of the room E.Q Test results.

Many thanks in advance!

[Torea]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

Hey everybody!,

I'm back and I'm in my new house. I've just set up all the gear in the listening room. I haven't applied any acoustic treatment as of yet because I wanted to see what the room had to offer. Everything seems audible okay except for a bass boom which seems to correspond to the sub frequency content you might expect to find in a bass guitar, around 150hz.

Anyway I've a test using Room E.Q and I was hoping you guys could help me make sense of it and what the best cause of action is .

I've uploaded images of the room E.Q Test results.

Many thanks in advance!

Congrats on the house =) Got waterfall graphs?

[Caatalyst]

Thank you (. I've attached a waterfall graph generated from the measurements I took last night and attached it to this post.

[Caatalyst]

Hey everyone,

I've pulled my speakers out a little further from the wall and that seems to have audibly helped. Theres still a lot of boom around the bass section. The results seem to be showing around 127hz. I just wondered what the experts thought and what treatment would be best!

The Room E.Q results are attached to this post.

Cheers,

Caatalyst

[avare]

Teh 127 Hz is a modal problem. Take one of the measurement positions you have, and then the test mic ~300 mm in each plane and take measurements at thos points. The plane in which the 127 Hz shifts is the plane that needs further treatment.

Congratulations on your results so far!

Andre

[Caatalyst]

Thanks alot for your reply avare, I will engage further testing tonight. There is definetely a 127hz boom, its most audible in bass guitar notes. Other than that Its quite hard to tell. Everything seems relatively clear. Is there anything else that sticks out to you from those results?

There are two other things that stick out for me but don't appear as audibly as obvious as the 127hz issue.

The first being that there is a significant drop between 2k and 3k.

The second that there is a lack of volume between 40 and 100hz.

I have a tendency to drive the sub content of kick drums quite hard and the lack of frequency content in this area worries me a little bit.

Thanks again.

[Caatalyst]

bump

[Caatalyst]

anybody please help! Advice would be extremely appreciated.

Cheers

[Torea]

Did you make treatment/test with it?

[Caatalyst]

Thanks for the reply. No because I'm not sure what treatment to invest in yet. I was hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right direction with the information I've provided so far!

Thanks

Caatalyst

[avare]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

Thanks for the reply. No because I'm not sure what treatment to invest in yet. I was hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right direction with the information I've provided so far!

See post #19.

Andre

[Caatalyst]

Hey Andre,

thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to sound like a complete n00b but post 19 has blagged my head a little. I only have taken one measurement reading from one point. That is the point at which I am sat.

What other points do you suggest? I'm not sure what you mean by a modal problem. I'm really sorry to be such a pest. Everyone has been really helpful on here so far thank you so much!

James





"Teh 127 Hz is a modal problem. Take one of the measurement positions you have, and then the test mic ~300 mm in each plane and take measurements at thos points. The plane in which the 127 Hz shifts is the plane that needs further treatment.

Congratulations on your results so far!"

Andre

[avare]

Originally Posted by Caatalyst

Hey Andre,

thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to sound like a complete n00b but post 19 has blagged my head a little. I only have taken one measurement reading from one point. That is the point at which I am sat.

What other points do you suggest? I'm not sure what you mean by a modal problem. I'm really sorry to be such a pest. Everyone has been really helpful on here so far thank you so much!

"Teh 127 Hz is a modal problem. Take one of the measurement positions you have, and then the test mic ~300 mm in each plane and take measurements at thos points. The plane in which the 127 Hz shifts is the plane that needs further treatment.

Congratulations on your results so far!"

I assume you have a measurement at the listening position. Take three more measurements. One moving the microphone 300 mm to the front, one up, and one one to the right or left.

Things that change in eah plane show up in the difference between the central test and the test moved in that plane. Eg. a change when mmoving the microphone forward, indicates the cheange is in the front back plane.

I hope that helped.

Andre

[Torea]

Originally Posted by avare

I assume you have a measurement at the listening position. Take three more measurements. One moving the microphone 300 mm to the front, one up, and one one to the right or left.

Things that change in eah plane show up in the difference between the central test and the test moved in that plane. Eg. a change when mmoving the microphone forward, indicates the cheange is in the front back plane.

I hope that helped.

Andre

To add to this, taking measurements around where the sweet spot is gives you a better feel of what you'll actually be hearing. Your ears aren't going to be together in the point of that triangle, and your head is probably going to move a little as you work. You want to create a bigger sweet spot, so you won't have to wear a neckbrace to work

[Caatalyst]

Hey Everyone,

Thank you for all the replies, again I am extremely grateful. I've run several more tests.

- listening position
- 30cm to the Left
- 30cm to the right
- 30cm upwards
- 30cm Forwards
- 30 cm Backwards

I've included individual frequency and waterfall diagrams as well as actual photographs of the room to see if that helps.

Just to recap...

The most obvious issue I'm having is a boom most noticably in bass guitar and the lower frequency content of guitar. From the tests I've run the results show that there is a boom at around 122-135hz which I'm guessing corresponds with the boom.

From the results I've also noticed that

- below 100hz there is a dip and a gradual drop between 70 and 40hz.
- there is a dip between 2 and 3k.

I'm not sure how to resolve any of this issues, i'm on a very tight budget so I just wanted to get some advice from the experts before I started spending money .

If anybody could look through the results I have uploaded in a zip I would be extremely grateful. Thanks again guys!!!

Caatalyst

[Caatalyst]

Oops Sorry the zip was two big so I've split up the files. This post contains the roomverb file and the next post contains images of the results.