HELP - Don't know how many panels I need

[Enuncia]

The place I'm working at this summer has this one large room that serves two purposes; one side is a training area for clients, and on the other side of a wall that doesn't go all the way to the ceiling is an area where we keep dogs in their crates (sometimes can get A LOT of dogs in there). I don't have measurements quite yet (hope to get those sometime today or tomorrow), but it's a large room with unfinished ceiling (beams and metal roof), with linoleum floors and concrete block walls. If you clap, it echoes all over the place to the point where you can't even hear yourself speak clearly. When there's 20-30 dogs barking on the other side of that wall, forget about any conversation whatsoever. Obviously this is a problem when we're trying to teach classes.

What we want to do is make this room as dead as possible; not looking for studio listening environment, just dead with as little echo as possible (my boss says at least 50% improvement). It looks like we're going to go with some DIY absorbtion panels (Acoustic Panel), as we don't have a lot of money to spend, and I know these work quite well.

What my question is, are there any general rules for setting these things up, as far as how far apart/ how many per x space of room? I need to know about how many I'd need, so I know how much material to buy.

EDIT:
Here's the room layout.


All measurements are fairly accurate. As labled, the "left" room is the training room. The "right" room is where the dogs are kept in their crates. The middle line is the wall that doesn't quite go to the ceiling. The thin lines in the middle of a wall are the rough placement of doors. The "closed room" is the bathroom in the back, door normally kept closed. If there's anything I forgot, or anything that needs clearing up, let me know. Thanks again for all your help.

[mikedunn211290]

There's no quick fix guide, each room is different, get in there, do your measurements and then try to sort it.
Don't go in and just stick panels on the walls.

Mike

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by Enuncia

and on the other side of a wall that doesn't go all the way to the ceiling is an area where we keep dogs in their crates (sometimes can get A LOT of dogs in there).

Finish the wall to the ceiling first and then some.

[Enuncia]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Finish the wall to the ceiling first and then some.

We'd love to, however the wall cannot be raised any further. The way the fire suppression system is set up, if the wall was raised it wouldn't be able to put out any fires in the classroom area (stupid, I know).

[ritelec]

Then don't sweat the treatment........

Why try to tame some frequencies when you still have barking dogs doing their thing? ruff ruff.


Sorry.

[Enuncia]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Then don't sweat the treatment........

Why try to tame some frequencies when you still have barking dogs doing their thing? ruff ruff.


Sorry.

I understand there's no way to perfectly fix this room. We just want to cut down of echo and reverberation so that it's just a bit more under control.

[DanDan]

I reckon the cheapest way to do lots is:-
Attach a wood frame to the ceiling or walls or both. Leave 2x4 spaces for insulation. You could a 4 inch frame to have an airgap behind 2 inch panels of 703 or whatever. Stretch light mesh ( drywall gap stuff is nice) across the fibre to stop it sagging if overhead.
Staple fabric to contain and for visual.
See post 24 here



DD

[johndykstra]

aim for 20-30% coverage to start. place panels so that if you have a panel on the left wall, the right wall across from it is bare. alternating. Also vary the height of the panels a bit. I would make panels 2-4" thick. 4" being better, but constraints due to cost and available space are always a consideration.

Given the room's usage, consider facing the panels after fabric with wood lattice to prevent damage from Fidos.

If the metal roof is parallel to the floor, you will want panels on the ceiling as well. If it is pitched, I would save that area as the last place to treat.

Regarding the kennel portion, and keeping sound over there, what is the layout?

[Enuncia]

As promised, here's the room laout


All measurements are fairly accurate. As labled, the "left" room is the training room. The "right" room is where the dogs are kept in their crates. The middle line is the wall that doesn't quite go to the ceiling. The thin lines in the middle of a wall are the rough placement of doors. The "closed room" is the bathroom in the back, door normally kept closed. If there's anything I forgot, or anything that needs clearing up, let me know. Thanks again for all your help. This pic will also be placed in the top post in case you need to find it again later.

[JustinW]

If money is an issue, and make the room as dead as possible is the goal (with no regard to frequency response); wouldn't it be cheaper to just cover the rooms with as much foam as possible?

Wouldn't that be enough to reduce echo/reverberation of the sounds that would be going on in that room? (claps, voice)

Although this would do nothing for low frequencies, which will be even more of a problem with a room with such reflective surfaces as a concrete wall. I am guessing low frequencies aren't your issue though, which might be a bad assumption.

[ritelec]

Sorry, i miss understood.
Thought you were mixing (audio training of some sort ) on left and dogs on right. Man I suck.


Anyway.

I was thinking, instead of construction and building and placing treatment.

Hang some drapes or rug to cut down on that flutter echo and maybe.......here we go........wireless monitor system. Just a thought.
Shure ULXP14/30 (G3 Band, 470 - 505 MHz) | Sweetwater.com
Sennheiser RS120 | Sweetwater.com

[ritelec]

On third thought.

Old carpet turned inside out secured around the entire perimeter and painted. Keep it a few feet off the floor to prevent dogs from peeing on it.
Ultra cheep and may work for you.

ruff ruff.

[DCtoDaylight]

Originally Posted by ritelec

On third thought.

Old carpet turned inside out secured around the entire perimeter and painted. Keep it a few feet off the floor to prevent dogs from peeing on it.
Ultra cheep and may work for you.

ruff ruff.

One thing to keep in mind is flammability - carpet probably isn't so bad in this regard, but improvising in situations like this can lead to trouble (e.g., the inappropriate soundproofing at The Station nightclub). We need to keep our fellow Slutz (and the nice doggies) safe!

[ritelec]

Wonder what spraying the decking with foam would do, and what 1300sq. feet of the stuff would run.
Spray Foam insulation and sound proofing provider for VA, NC and SC

[avare]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Wonder what spraying the decking with foam would do, and what 1300sq. feet of the stuff would run.
Spray Foam insulation and sound proofing provider for VA, NC and SC

Looking at the images, it is self-skinning. No good for sound absorption.

Andre

[ritelec]

I see, thanks Andre,

Don't know what they used, but several years back, they sprayed the decking at the airport. It stayed chunky and flakey......

Maybe something like this....cellulose ?.... (check acoustic performance)

K-13 Insulation | Spray Applied Cellulose Insulation

or this....

http://www.spray-on.com/products/sonaspray.html

or this....

http://www.spray-on.com/products/protek13.html

[Enuncia]

Thanks for all the replies and help!

In regards to the ceiling; it looks like we cannot do anything to it. The fire-sprinklers spray upwards, meaning if we added any panels to the roof it would be soaking up water/ interrupting the water spray, making the sprinklers less effective should there ever be a fire. The landlord would have to re-do the whole fire system for us to add these panels to the ceiling, and I KNOW he will never go for that.

In regards to the foam: I hadn't thought of that. I'll pitch it to the bosses, and see what they think. I wouldn't give it too much hope though, as we want to keep the place very clean and professional looking.

My current plan is in the training room, alternate panels between walls in 4' segments between opposite walls. My math came out to 11 panels per level (level being one row across the wall). If someone wants to check that math/ give a better suggestion, it would be much appreciated.

Also, I should explain further, there is no audio stuff going on in the training room. This is a second building for a dog daycare, where I work as an assistant trainer as my day job when I'm not doing audio work (gotta pay those bills). So we're not looking for pristine sound environments here, just to make this room a bit more conducive to talking and conversation without everything being drowned out every time a dog barks or the AC kicks in.

Thanks again for all the help and the replies, it is greatly appreciated by an acoustics noob such as myself.


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