Studio Set-Up With Photos - Need Assistane Please!

[soundmagus]

Hi Guys,

After my recent plethora of threads regarding my new room, acoustics, REW and what not i have finally got everything i need to get started.

I figured i would make a thread with the whole process i am about to partake in from beginning to end.

The way i see it is that the following sequence of events need to be completed to allow me to get to as good a room as possible in the circumstances. Please chip in on the list of things to do (and order) if you have better suggestions and ideas.

Many thanks

Mark

Steps to Follow

1. Empty room
2. Speaker Placement and Calibration
3. Listening point established using 38% rule
4. First reading in REW of Empty Room (for comparison later on)
5. Start to place diffusion panels using the "mirror" method.
6. Add Bass traps to obvious places, corners etc.
7. Take a further Reading with REW and add/move Traps as neccessary.

As this is my first attempt at this i am aware i will be missing things or even maybe doing to many things, i dont really know so i am hoping to get lots of good avice here from those in the know.

I have a whole week to sort this out so please help in any way you can. I will be videoing most of it and takeing screen shots of software, pictures of everything and anything to have the whole process fully documented.

I had the bass traps built to these specs and have followed that PDF strictly.

I have taken the advice of DanDan to go with R100 (50mm) for reflections and cloud and R40 (50mm) but they will be doubles up (in most cases) to 100mm.

I have 18 R40 and 12 R100 plus 21 frames to use (pictures below). in the relatively small room.

The room measurements are as follows:

L - 12' 7"
H - 9' 4"
W - 9' 3"

The large window you can see in the room (to the left) is:

L - 7' 11"
H - 6' 2"

The smaller window is:

L - 7'11"
H - 6' 2"



I have also enclosed some photos of the first Bass trap i have completed (see below) with some questions regarding them, which are:

1. It looks like using the Whealy calculator its definataly best to have these with the same thickness air gap behind them. They are 100mm thick so a gap of 100mm will help tremendously with absorption, do you agree?
2. If you look at the pictures the traps are quite small (1.2m) in height. Lookin gat the photos with them next to my monitor positions i beleive i will need to have them on stands so that they are ABOVE the height of the to of the monitors and my head, is this correct?
3. When taking the First REW set of reading (empty room) does the room need to be completely empty? By this i mean i have a table which will have my monitor,laptop,keyboard, mixer and soundcard on it, should i have that in place when takign the first reading?

Thanks again guys, i much appreciate any feedback, criticism, help and assistance you can offer.

Jind Regards,

Mark

[soundmagus]

Hi Guys,

Ok preliminary stuff complete.

*Listening position set to 38% of my room length
*Monitors and listening position equilateral triangle
*Monitors angled so that they converge 3 feet behind my head



I have attached 3 test readings.

The red one is with windows and curtains on the left hand side of the room open.
The green one is with them closed
The purple is the average of them both

Looking at the red readout i am making the following conclusions as to how i see the informaiton. (I may be totally wrong as i am new to this so if i am please point this out)

There are problems in the following areas: (we will start above 20hz for ease)

23.2 Hz
28.3 Hz
31.7 Hz
36.8 Hz
48.5 Hz
125.5

And so on.

Am i reading this correctly? Also if i am it definataly looks like the GREEN output is better (which i expected due to it being taken with the windows and curtains closed).

I would very much appreciate it if someone could help me with the following:

Where do I STAND when taking Readings? (strange i know but i must effect them right?)
Are the diagrams set to the correct sizes?
Are there any other views i should be showing you for feedback?
Do you think i should now put Basstraps/Diffusion into basic places and make a reading to compare? (I beleive i should then start to move them around to make better readings)

Well thank you so much for your input and help, i know its a lot of questions but hey you got to start somewhere right

Mark

[soundmagus]

Can someone tell me how low should I hang my ceiling cloud from the ceiling?

Its R100 @ 100mm thick.

thanks

Mark

[jhbrandt]

Mark,

I usually recommend to space absorption panels from the mounting surface the same distance as the thickness of the absorptive material used. 100mm panels will have an air space of 100mm.

Get a copy of my First Reflection Calculator found on my publications page to help you with placement. Also check out my articles and those at Realtraps and GIK.

Cheers,
John

[soundmagus]

Thanks John,

I have read most stuff but not your stuff so i am off to read it now, thanks for the link.

Mark

[soundmagus]

At the moment i cant hang anything as i am wating on legs for the free standing traps and my DIY guy to help me with hanging everything else.

Does this read out look totally terrible? I have placed R100, 100mm at first reflection points, side and back with bass traps in all 4 corners but only 1.2 metres high(again waiting on DIY guy to add brackets etc).

To me it looks like there is a definate problem at 151Hz but i am unsure how to analyse the rest, alhtough i think the top end, from say 700Hz all the way up looks reasonably flat but again am unsure. Also the Decay looks like its still full on at 300ms, this to me looks really bad.

I know the room is no where near ready but i thought i would do a random test to get some feedback to anything you can see regarding major problems. I will be following Johns recommendations of same space behind traps as their thickness and will have more traps on roof for cloud and in wall/ceiling meeting places.

Many thanks,

Mark

No Sound Absorption/Diffusion





With Treatment (as per room photos below).





Room Photos - The traps n the corners will be doubled up and most of the traps on the floors will be raised about 1 foot with legs and some will be attached to the walls.

[PaulP]

Not a whole heck of a lot of difference given the amount of absorption you added. Hopefully things will improve once you raise thing up on the walls. Something on the ceiling shouldn't hurt either.

That's a really nice room you have there with the windows and the view. It seems kind of a shame to fill it up with traps. I'd try to keep treatment to a strict minimum, placed only where it has the most effect and isn't in front of the windows. Don't just keep adding more and more treatment. Take out treatment that doesn't add anything useful. Your tests are a good example of a lot of treatment not doing much.

[ciro]

Your measurements are not easy to read. Take a look at an example of how to do with the waterfalls.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6389390-post66.html

You need to see the "mountain´s foot". Showing 40db will be fine (some say 30, others 60...),but not 120db like in the gif)

Same with the ETC/impulse. You need to show what happens in the first 60/80 ms or so,being the first 20ms the critical part).Showing 40 or 50 db in the vertical axis.

And the frequency response graphic, intervals of 10 db (or less) (vertical axis) will be a lot easier to read.

Ah, and putting all the panels as they´re now are not valid to the measurements because you won´t use then this way; it will leave ceiling reflection point , tricorners, all upper portion of room,etcetera... uncovered while killing certain frequencies where you don´t want to. There´s a lot of good threads and advices here.I remember you post a thread some days ago about your plans, right?

Congrats for making the traps !


Ciro

[soundmagus]

Thanks Guys.

Paulp - Yes as expected i figured there wouldnt be much difference considerign they are just thrown around roughly at side reflection points and rear reflection point and bottom half of wall at corners, just a little test until i get feet etc on them.

ciro - i will change the settings and put up some results here just to make sure i have the correct.

And i also agree regarding the "not valid" statement as the panels are not in the correct areas yet. i am just doing some preliminary tests to find out what i am doing wrong before i get everything set up and ready to go. (the graph details for instance)
Yes i have had several posts regarding me preparign for this, thanks for your replies there too

Paulp - Yeah hopefully i dont need ot have the panels all the way round and can keep some of the glass free a sit is a very nice space.

Many thanks, i appreciate yuor feedback and efforts to help me.

New measurements with hopefdully the correct numbers coming soon.

Mark

PS - Oh i forgot to ask, how high above the top of the monitors do the panels that will be free standing have to be?

[jhbrandt]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

...PS - Oh i forgot to ask, how high above the top of the monitors do the panels that will be free standing have to be?

Mark,

Center the panels vertically at ear height - or at the acoustic center of the speakers (these should be close to the same)

Cheers,
John

[soundmagus]

Thanks John, thats higher than i thought but as always your informaiton is grately appreciated and will be followed

I have made some adjustments to the graphs as requested, can any of you guys confirm these are correct, thanks.

Mark

[soundmagus]

Ciro,

Those are with the traps as in the photo, as i said, i cant get th etraps into the correct positioning until my DIY man makes feet etc, so will be a while yet.

Ok i will make changes and re-post pictures with EMPTY room.

thanks

Mark

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

... my DIY man ...

Humorous aside: surely a DIY man is an oxymoron - if you are using someone else then you are not doing it yourself!

Nice project Mark.

[soundmagus]

Hahahaha yeah, i should have said "My handyman" lol - one for the Dumb asses

The project has been great fun, and not even half way finished although i expect to have it all in place in the next 2 weeks

Mark

[muziekschuur]

Please do some tests with diffusing in the same room. Weird objects placed in front of the walls will do the trick. See if it influences the room. According to what I have read the room is too small to eq completely flat. (Too much damping materiall needed). So diffusing must allso be used wisely to influence your graph and lead to a sub optimal result. The rest must be done with adjusting to your speakers...

Love the way you use your head to achieve a maximum result.

By the way, that room is gorgeous as is. So please keep that vibe...

In my mixingroom I have a 2x15 cabinet for bass and a 4x10. Those are bass traps aswell. Maybe such devices need to be in that room anyway, so use them and measure. Just a tip.

[soundmagus]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback and Ideas.

I am limited to what i can achieve in this room by several factors, they are as follows:

1. Its not my house so i cant go totally crazy although the landlordis going to help me as much as he can, which is great.
2. I am in Thailand and trying to get acoustic material has been a nightmare, but i eventually got the best i could with R60 (50mm) and R100 (50mm)

The R60 is bein gused for the bass traps and R100 for reflection killers (cloud etc) as advised by DD in THIS THREAD!

So i now have the following bass traps to make use of:

9 x R60 @ 100mm with 50mm airgap provided by frame.
6 x R100 @ 100mm with 50mm AirGap provided by frame.

I fear i might need more unless you guys can help me in "optimising" the traps i have as i am in the same boat as you guys, i dont really want to destroy the aesthetics of the room (it is a beautiful space) but if i have to, i will.

muziekschuur - in relation to the diffusers, i have been considerign building some Skyscraper diffusers for the back wall, maybe i will once i see how much i am still lacking when all traps i have built have been used.

So onwards....I have attached lots of new pictures, mainly the room as it is WITH NO TREATMENT and the REW results of a readign with the room in this state.

With the readings now optimised properly (i think) whats your advice on trap placement etc.

Many thanks once again,

Mark

[muziekschuur]

Make 4 of these, place them in the room and measure.
If you can find one or two hardwood beams, cut them, sand them clear them with varnis and attach them to a board with two eyes so you can hang em.

If you can find a light wich can be hung on the ceiling wich has a curved surface about a meter by a meter it can be a diffusor on the ceiling.

Take a carpet and lay it in there too and measure again.



Such a light as big as possible and hang it in the middle of the room. Maybe surrounded by a curved surface around it. But severall of these lights on a line half a meter from the ceiling can do it too.

Merge asteatics with what you need to do to create that flat line...

[soundmagus]

muziekschuur - Those ideas look great but i think they are pretty much out of my scope for this little room (and my budget).

I was MAYBE going to make some Skyscraper Diffusers (I just built my first skyline diffuser....) which are realatively cheap but i ended up sppending all my budget on the foam etc so i have to go with what i have at the minute.

Maybe in the future i will put up diffusers ut for now i have to use what i have at the moment.

I might be able to do something with regards to hanging stuff from the roof. The roof here is plywood :O and as such is unable to hold the weight of a fly never mind my R100 Reflection treatment so my "handyman" has come up with a great idea to attach 2 peices of wire from each of the strong, concrete walls and attach the cloud to those with hooks so maybe i can utilise that somehow for extra diffusion.

thanks

Mark

BTW - Those diffusers look mean lol

[ciro]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

my "handyman" has come up with a great idea to attach 2 peices of wire from each of the strong, concrete walls and attach the cloud

Good, I think that the ceiling is a very important point to treat, in your case you has 2 same dimension (height /width) what is not good.Even with your "treatment", see that the 120 hz ringing still there.

Is the rear wall not parallel with the front or no, only "looks like"? If yes,I Think it´s good,in part it explains the lack of issues/reflections coming from there on impulse response.Still a good point to treat the lowest mode ringing ~46hz) .This is the hardest part.I don´t see it happening with something less than 8 or 10" panels there, but I may be wrong...

Play with speakers and mix position. The shy response below 100hz may be a "null" and/or simply the lack of information of the speakers (see if there´s some roll off "on").Proximity speakers/ boundaries (front/side) + playing with mix position (closer to the front wall, try 37, 36, 35 %...)may helps to "tune" (rise) these lows .Try it.

What I´d do (traps)
1) put a cloud 4" between monitors and mix position the way you can
2) 1 front wall ceiling corner panel.
3) stack 2 traps (2,40m) on each front wall corner and see what happens.There´s a lot of windows , what can make one think that there´s no need of such absorption there , but - who knows, it can helps.
Do the same same in the left rear corner.
4) I think a "wall" of traps (let´s say, 4)on the right (R) wall would be a good idea. Safe the reflection point with a broadband trap and experiment two or three more traps beside this at ear level.I think these panels (if 4" and with something like cardboard bonded to helps in the low end absorption and not suck the highs energy) will helps to absorbs the lows (120 and up) and will also helps with the room symmetry L/R.

5)Acoustic treatment reference guide

Just some ideas ... wait for more advices.Your room looks great and will be very good in the end, I´m sure .

Ciro

[soundmagus]

@Ciro

Good, I think that the ceiling is a very important point to treat, in your case you has 2 same dimension (height /width) what is not good.Even with your "treatment", see that the 120 hz ringing still there.

Just so that you are aware, the most recent readings, the green ones above muziekschuurlast post are with NO TREATMENT so maybe we can do something baout the 120Hz ringing. (btw how do you know this is because Height/Width are the same?)

Is the rear wall not parallel with the front or no, only "looks like"? If yes,I Think it´s good,in part it explains the lack of issues/reflections coming from there on impulse response.Still a good point to treat the lowest mode ringing ~46hz) .This is the hardest part.I don´t see it happening with something less than 8 or 10" panels there, but I may be wrong...

The rear wall is parallel with the front wall although there is a couch the whole length of the wall cutting it at an angle from the door to the left side wall, i assume this is helping.



Play with speakers and mix position. The shy response below 100hz may be a "null" and/or simply the lack of information of the speakers (see if there´s some roll off "on").Proximity speakers/ boundaries (front/side) + playing with mix position (closer to the front wall, try 37, 36, 35 %...)may helps to "tune" (rise) these lows .Try it.

Should i still play with the speakers even though there is NO TREATMENT in the room yet? The speakers are Adam A7`s and go down to 35hz, yuo can see their response in this photo (the black dotted line).



There is no "roll off" set up on the monitors.

Again is playing with the listening position, the proximities and boundary relationships with the walls (front & Side) the correct thing to do before putting in treatment?

What I´d do (traps)
1) put a cloud 4" between monitors and mix position the way you can
2) 1 front wall ceiling corner panel.
3) stack 2 traps (2,40m) on each front wall corner and see what happens.There´s a lot of windows , what can make one think that there´s no need of such absorption there , but - who knows, it can helps.
Do the same same in the left rear corner.
4) I think a "wall" of traps (let´s say, 4)on the right (R) wall would be a good idea. Safe the reflection point with a broadband trap and experiment two or three more traps beside this at ear level.I think these panels (if 4" and with something like cardboard bonded to helps in the low end absorption and not suck the highs energy) will helps to absorbs the lows (120 and up) and will also helps with the room symmetry L/R.

1. I intend to put up a cloud of R100 x100 mm with gap from frame to ceiling of 100mm, is this what you mean? (should there be more than 1 trap for cloud?)
2. When you say from wall ceiling panel, do you mean where the ceiling meets the front wall? If so i was intending to do this when i put up the cloud.
3. I intend to have 2 traps (2.4m) in all 3 corners, is this over kill or should i start with front 2, then rear or just do it for all 3 and see what happens?
4. So on the right hand side wall you think it wil be best to treat 1st reflection point and then place another 3 in the surrounding area? Do you mean at the same height to the right of the first relflection point? I assume so as there will be no room to the left (maybe room for 1) because of the corner traps, unless you mean ABOVE the reflection point but i dont think so.

5. I have been working my way through that post for a few weeks now and still learning more and more every day.

Thanks for your hep and continued feedback Ciro, its much appreciated.

Mark

PS - What about the space directly behind the monitors? and the reflection point on the back wall? Also what about the space to the left of me, where all the glass is? Dont i need to treat for first reflection points there also?

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

... there is a couch the whole length of the wall cutting it at an angle from the door to the left side wall, i assume this is helping.

I am an amateur thinking out loud: If the couch is hollow it may not have enough density to absorb the sound significantly. If you want it to, would filling it with rockwool turn it into a trap?

[Torea]

Originally Posted by Starlight

I am an amateur thinking out loud: If the couch is hollow it may not have enough density to absorb the sound significantly. If you want it to, would filling it with rockwool turn it into a trap?

I, too, am an amateur, but that then would also depend on the material covering the couch right? I dunno, sounds like an itchy and lumpy couch to me!

[soundmagus]

Hi Guys, thanks for chipping in.

The couch is in-fact a fold away bed so it is very heavy and very dense, so i am pretty sure its contributing something to the diffucion/absorption on the backwall. how much though i am unsure.

Mark

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

diffucion

Mark

New term......... I love it.



Kinda what I'm experiencing in my room.

[soundmagus]

Told you i was getting good at this, inventing new terms the lot

[Torea]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

diffucion

I want to name my future band that. "We are.... DIFFUCION!" And by taking the meaning of 'dif' and 'fuci', you get - Assimilated before, several of a seaweed of a large genus of brown algae having flat leathery fronds.

Yep, that sounds like my future band

[soundmagus]

I hope your future is diffused, now back on topic eh :P Any ideas to the above anyone?

[ciro]

Originally Posted by soundmagus

so maybe we can do something baout the 120Hz ringing. (btw how do you know this is because Height/Width are the same?)

Because this frequencie is related to both dimensions. 121hz to 9'3" and 122hz to 9'4".They tend to "sum" (as even your waterfall "with traps" confirm)
RealTraps - ModeCalc

Originally Posted by soundmagus

Should i still play with the speakers even though there is NO TREATMENT in the room yet?

To be honest, I never did this way, but when I move (it will happens soon), I´ll do , that´s what I often see recomended by the experts here and I agree.But yes, you can start to move speakers and mix position while doing the treatment.

Originally Posted by soundmagus

The speakers are Adam A7`s and go down to 35hz, yuo can see their response in this photo (the black dotted line).

FR for A7 is 42Hz-50Khz , more or less what you have in your room (although very little at 42Hz- also except the 50Khz I think (!!)).
The "peaks" you have between 20 and 35, IMO they are not relevant, not like an "usable" frequency response of room/speakers.

Originally Posted by soundmagus

1. I intend to put up a cloud of R100 x100 mm with gap from frame to ceiling of 100mm, is this what you mean? (should there be more than 1 trap for cloud?)

Yes.I have no experience with the 100kg panels but they should works.

Originally Posted by soundmagus

2. When you say from wall ceiling panel, do you mean where the ceiling meets the front wall? If so i was intending to do this when i put up the cloud.

Yes,this is a good point to treat (IME).Being an "open trap"(sides), You can also easily add later more fluffy/less dense rockwool to help with the lower frequencies decay (if needed,of course).

Originally Posted by soundmagus

3. I intend to have 2 traps (2.4m) in all 3 corners, is this over kill or should i start with front 2, then rear or just do it for all 3 and see what happens?

Not overkill, go for it if possible! Floor to ceiling in the front wall will also helps with symmetry. In the rear wall they´re a must, because you have not a window to help with the bass "passing through".

Originally Posted by soundmagus

4.the right of the first relflection point? I assume so as there will be no room to the left (maybe room for 1) because of the corner traps, unless you mean ABOVE the reflection point but i dont think so.

When I say "wall of traps" I mean middle to rear portion of room at ear level.AGAIN, measurements will tell you what to do and if the traps there will helps or not.My though is that it will be good for symmetry on low frequencies (because you have a window at left side-which is a kind of "pass through" for bass frequencies)

Originally Posted by soundmagus

PS - What about the space directly behind the monitors? and the reflection point on the back wall? Also what about the space to the left of me, where all the glass is? Dont i need to treat for first reflection points there also?

My answer would be "yes" for all, because all the reflection points should be treated.But your impulse measurements looks strange (too good) for an untreated room.I don´t see problems between 0-20 ms, which would be expected.

About the space behind monitors, is a good point to treat (again, IME).Measure with/without panels there ,but I see the front wall more as a "final" place to be treated - if needed ...

Ciro

*when I say IME I mean treating my room and helping some friends in their rooms.I´m far from being an expert (I´m sure you know it)

[DanDan]

Best to measure with single speaker driven. Do both as well, but the primary measurements should be with one.
Also smoothing....all in all if you read this you will probably take do measuring quite differently.
LF response is the biggie. View it 30-300Hz.
Full range gives an indication of tone, average the two individual graphs L and R and use smoothing to make sense of the HF.
You want a nice bassy curve similar to that at Understanding RTA over at StudioTips.com.
Use the Eq on the ADAM's to achieve this HF roll off and LF boost.

You will have extreme flutter between that tiled floor and the ceiling. Full ceiling cloud or partial with thick rugs on the floor where there is no cloud overhead.
Probably no point to traps behind the speakers RealTraps - Front Wall Absorption

I suggest you start with the biggest problem, lack of bass. Find out what is causing it, which will tell you how to treat it. Playing sine waves at the troubleseome frequencies is great for this. Use the Sig Gen in REW and turn on Frequency follows cursor. Slide the cursor over a big null. Move about the room to find the peaks and nulls. This should advise you very clearly where to place Bass Traps.
DD

DD

[soundmagus]

Ciro - thank for that, nice replies i will keep them to mind as i start to put Traps in place.

DanDan - How do I use a single monitor? Do i centre it between my normal speaker position? do i leave it where it is? I find this very confusing! Even in the Acoustic primer you linked to it doesnt say anything about using a single speaker, it only mentions "I am assuming a rectangular room, with speakers at the narrow front wall."

Sorry if i am being dumb but i want to get this right a si need to start getting some work done lol.

I am going to add 2x1.2 traps to all 3 corners (still unsure about what to do with the door corner) and take some measurements with (hopefully) the single monitor method as primary then double monitor as advised.

Once i have these done i will then add panels at reflection points as advise din the RealTraps link, then we can see whats happening with the room.

thanks again guys, your a great help

Mark