How do you become a music studio designer?

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by spice house

I'd rather have rod design my studio than mix my music

wheres my popcorn...

LOL, and Rod would much rather design your studio than mix your music as well......

[ritelec]

fitZ.............
Thank you for the read.
-rich

My take although I suck at design and mixing.
Acoustical design = science

[RedTuxedo]

Originally Posted by ritelec

fitZ.............
Thank you for the read.
-rich

My take although I suck at design and mixing.
Acoustical design = science

Isn't a violin the design of acoustical space? How about an acoustic guitar? Or the difference between a conical tube opposed to a straight one? I would think that a fundamental understanding of these spaces would make a difference.

Science can help about 75% IMO. Stradivarius understood something much more than that.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by fitZ

Hmmm, If I'm not mistaken, I believe someone has a different opinion.




I believe the author is an engineer, first and foremost.

Fitz old boy....... how the hell have you been? - been a while my friend.....

I only have 2 response to that sir......

The first is:

"That's one man's opinion"......... certainly not mine......

I will comment that just because someone is an acoustical engineer that this does not necessarily mean they will be good at studio design........

But, by the same token, not every studio engineer will be good at studio design either.......

There are plenty of people on both sides of these particular fence that will just never invest the effort it takes to be able to "pull this off"...... expertise on either side of the fence does not equate (automatically) to "success".

I do believe (however) that my love for music and the fact that I am a musician helps me to understand what "sounds good" - or at least what sounds good to me.......

My only other response would be that you really should provide links to your sources - or at least quote who the source is. Although in this case it's hard to do that I suppose - I could only find his first name - still don't have a clue who he is in the "real world"........

Again, good seeing you and hope life is treating you well....

Rod

[ritelec]

Just had to add this Rod....

"Fitz old boy......."


with a british accent .

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by RedTuxedo

Science can help about 75% IMO. Stradivarius understood something much more than that.

Red,

That does not mean (by extension) that Stradivarius would have been excellent at room design......


Rod

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by RedTuxedo

Isn't a violin the design of acoustical space? How about an acoustic guitar? Or the difference between a conical tube opposed to a straight one? I would think that a fundamental understanding of these spaces would make a difference.

Science can help about 75% IMO. Stradivarius understood something much more than that.

Music studio design. Architect/building/science/math. Question wasn't about making an instrument. My grandsons banging on a coffee can, he's not a musician,mixer,architect or scientist. It sounds good or it doesn't (but he don't care either way if he's having fun). Are you having fun?

[StewartFang]

Seriously Rod..the way you dissect sentences and quote as if I made some all emcompassing statement with each sentence is really an arseholish thing to do...if you weren't so good at what you do, it would bother me.


Have it your way brother, but my comments were actually not directed at you...the response to the OP was that I feel that the great rooms were designed by folks with a good understand of recording (like Tony ( who you assisted)) ... period. Whatever way you wanna slice that other baloney you are serving is kinda taking away from the fact that the OP might wanna consider getting to know his way around a studio before attempting to design one.

Just a friendly suggestion.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

Have it your way brother, but my comments were actually not directed at you...the response to the OP was that I feel that the great rooms were designed by folks with a good understand of recording (like Tony ( who you assisted)) ... period.

Stewart,

I respond the way I do (point by point) because it makes it much easier to address bullet points people make.......

It has nothing to do with this thread - just the way I like to deal with things - I respond to communications from clients in exactly the same manner.

One thing you have wrong (not a word I've used in this thread before now) is that I "assisted" Tony on that project......

You weren't there - and you really don't know what you're talking about....

Tony had nothing to do with the construction of that project...... that was my baby........ I saw Tony (perhaps) 4 or 5 times during the process........ those were mostly the end of the day visits on his part - and pretty much ended up just some great B.S. sessions.....

So no, I didn't "assist" Tony (or anyone else for that matter) on that project........ just keeping the record straight.

Rod

[StewartFang]

Oh...I'm a little confused...I thought Tony designed that studio...

[jhbrandt]

hahaha... ~popcorn~....

-John

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

Oh...I'm a little confused...I thought Tony designed that studio...

I can understand your being a little confused - like I said - you weren't there.....

Tony designed (and constructed) Power Station back in the 70's........

The extent of any documentation was simply a couple of sheets of stamped structural engineering drawings......

When Tony decided (in the early 90's) to sell franchises for the "A" room, Sonalysts decided to buy into the deal....

We took a team to NY and did an as-built of the studio. We also sat with Tony and worked from the surface back through the structure in order to determine exactly what existed behind the finishes.

This took about a week to pull off....

I (then) spent the better part of another week there detailing board spacings/sizes, locations/details of wall plates, etc., etc., etc.

We then designed a building that we could fit this into - and proceeded with construction on that building..... Phase 1 of the project.......

While this was going on I was digging through the studio details (while overseeing the building construction) figuring out how the rooms were supposed to work....

In the process of figuring this out I realized that there were errors in the original structural drawings if the rooms worked the way I believed they had to.

I mentioned to one of the presidents at Sonalysts that I believed I had figured out the "mystery" behind the "A" room design - which he found amusing (at best) - and during the discussion he called Tony - letting him know that I was "claiming" to have figured out how his rooms worked......

He asked Tony if he could show up the next day to straighten me out.......

When Tony came the next day we got into a very involved conversation about how the rooms worked....... with Tony getting more excited as the discussion carried on - because he realized that I actually did understand how the rooms worked........

That was actually the first time I ever met the man....... which sort of kills the idea that Tony somehow taught me how to understand all of this..

Now - in the process (of all this) I did correct the error in the original structural drawings I found - which is why the rooms did not have to be tuned when they were finished, which amazed Tony because he never built a room that didn't need tuning (to enhance high mid & higher frequencies) in any of the rooms he had ever constructed. It is for this reason that Tony insists that any additional clients who franchise the rooms have to include my costs for oversight of the construction as a part of the deal.........

I figured out how (and why) they really worked - all this without the benefit of ever having been employed (or having any sort of a clue) about the recording industry........

I hope you are now clear as to what actually took place.......

Please understand, I am not saying that this would not have it's benefits - simply that it is not a prerequisite.......

Sincerely,

Rod

[jhbrandt]

Well, I have to agree with Rod. (I am so not surprised..) I come from the 'technical' side of things in this music business.

Having actually worked with/for quite a few famous artists & producers and other technical wizards like Neil Muncy (I learned a lot from him) basically gives me credibility and helps me secure clients... but that's not where I learned my 'stuff'. -- And I have done quite a bit of studio work like tracking and mixing -- and also concert sound... but that's because I just love music and the people involved in it.. I love the technical and the subtleties that one can add to a project... But ear training didn't help me design better studios. It's like wearing different hats. Having done the engineering and production helps me to understand my clients better - not acoustics.

It is the years of study and hard work in the field of physics, acoustics, electronics, and hands-on construction -including flat work and masonry -- that provide me personally with the education/knowledge necessary to do my job. Yes, experience counts for a lot, but only after the education.

- John

[ciro]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Having done the engineering and production helps me to understand my clients better - not acoustics.

It is the years of study and hard work in the field of physics, acoustics, electronics, and hands-on construction -including flat work and masonry -- that provide me personally with the education/knowledge necessary to do my job. Yes, experience counts for a lot, but only after the education.

- John

Ciro

[avare]

+1 to what John and Rod (alphabetical order) wrote in the 2 posts immediately above.

Andre

[StewartFang]

So...you had Nothing to do with the design of Power station...

Tony (a recording Engineer) designed and constructed one of the most noted recording mixing rooms of all time.

You went through all the details of this space with a fine tooth comb learning every nook and cranny and EXACTLY how it was built, were given all drawings and walked through the complete assembly/concept by Tony (the famous RECORDING ENGINEER who DESIGNED one of the most noted rooms of all time)

At which point you figured out , using your technical knowledge and acoustics backround structural knowledge etc , what makes the room tick...



yep your right...Tony's recording experience, which was passed along to you meticulously via his design and construction details...and him personally had nothing to do with your succesful career as a designer.

[StewartFang]

It's fairly obvious that a good fundamental understanding of recording is essential...two of our most noted occupants have that...the semantics stuff and ego guarding is irrelevant to the topic...

I would also like to point out that I think that it is tremendous that guys like Rod and JBrandt are giving back or at least giving us a peak...as Tony and others like him have in the past...

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

So...you had Nothing to do with the design of Power station...

Tony (a recording Engineer) designed and constructed one of the most noted recording mixing rooms of all time.

You went through all the details of this space with a fine tooth comb learning every nook and cranny and EXACTLY how it was built, were given all drawings and walked through the complete assembly/concept by Tony (the famous RECORDING ENGINEER who DESIGNED one of the most noted rooms of all time)

At which point you figured out , using your technical knowledge and acoustics backround structural knowledge etc , what makes the room tick...



yep your right...Tony's recording experience, which was passed along to you meticulously via his design and construction details...and him personally had nothing to do with your succesful career as a designer.

Stewart,

You just seriously are not paying attention here.......

First of all - Tony never discussed with anyone the concept of the design (and I never stated he did - just another assumption on your part) ........ not with me nor any member of the design team.

In fact - one of the team mentioned something about the room that set Tony off (I was not there that day) and Tony blew up all over him - explaining to him that he didn't have a clue about how the room worked and he should pretty much keep his mouth shut and just gather hard data.

As I mentioned - I never met with him during the as-built process (you might want to focus on the part where I said that I never met him until after I had digested all of the physical data - that's a real important part).

And yes I had something quite important to do with the design of Power Station New England - you apparently missed that part as well........

Although the rooms look identical - the most assuredly are not identical - the changes I made in PSNE perfected Tony's design....... I could never have achieved that unless I really understood what the heck was going on.

Tony never knew about the change I made until after the studio was finished....... until he walked in and heard something he had never experienced in any studio before in his career - including the ones he built in NY.....

I don't know if you have even seen - actually been in - any of these rooms - but if you have - don't you find it interesting that the rooms in NY have urethane finishes on the walls (quite heavy in some places) - while all the rooms in PSNE are bare wood (stain but no urethane finishes whatsoever?) Do you have any idea what that actually means?

What I find interesting is that you are sitting here arguing with me about my own life and experiences - as if you know something I don't..........

I am really sorry - but you are 110% incorrect in all of your assumptions here..... I was there - you weren't even anywhere close - and you really do not have a clue what you're talking about....... you are simply grasping at straws to try and protect your position - and are totally wrong in the process.....

Sincerely,

Rod

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

It's fairly obvious that a good fundamental understanding of recording is essential...two of our most noted occupants have that...the semantics stuff and ego guarding is irrelevant to the topic...

I would also like to point out that I think that it is tremendous that guys like Rod and JBrandt are giving back or at least giving us a peak...as Tony and others like him have in the past...

Well it is fairly obvious to you at least...... and I am not guarding my ego here.... simply stating fact......

I did not then - nor do I now - have even the most basic understanding about recording........ in fact I don't know anything about recording that would not doing anything less than put me to shame (if I were foolish enough to speak as if I did know something) in front of anyone who really does......

Haven't you even noticed that I never post anywhere except in the construction forum on any of the many boards I visit (except perhaps the moan zone on rare occasions) ? That is because I have nothing - zero - nada - nil - to offer anywhere else - not a friggen clue.... but I can design one hell of a room.....

BTW - thanks for the kind words - I really do try to help - as do some of the really bright people here like John, Andre - and a host of others.....

OK - this has just taken up too much of my time and energy - I know my life intimately - you do not - you are completely wrong about me -(except for the nice things you said ) and I simply cannot waste any more time trying to explain reality to you........

Have a great day.........

Rod

[StewartFang]

Well Rod...you seem to be confusing some issues...like who designed the Original...but whatever fine...we now know it was Tony..I didn't know about the franchising eithe....and we know your work is great...and I am not telling your story Rod...have no interest in that...I'm saying that you benefitted from Tony's recording knowledge and that recording knowledge in general is important...but hey whatevs...on to more interesting things...

in answer to your question..actually no I do not "know" why you chose to use urethane...I can only guess that it may have something to do with reflection or possibly absorption properties of the wood finishes...my instincts are telling me in the room I am currently designing myself (with the guidance of someone much like you) that I would not like to treat the wood with urethane...oh and BTW I'm pretty much ripping your details off as much as can...hope that's OK with you...

But I would really like to know why you did choose to treat the wood the way you did in NY...maybe I'll change my mind

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

Well Rod...you seem to be confusing some issues...like who designed the Original...but whatever fine...we now know it was Tony..I didn't know about the franchising eithe....and we know your work is great...and I am not telling your story Rod...have no interest in that...I'm saying that you benefitted from Tony's recording knowledge and that recording knowledge in general is important...but hey whatevs...on to more interesting things...

in answer to your question..actually no I do not "know" why you chose to use urethane...I can only guess that it may have something to do with reflection or possibly absorption properties of the wood finishes...my instincts are telling me in the room I am currently designing myself (with the guidance of someone much like you) that I would not like to treat the wood with urethane...oh and BTW I'm pretty much ripping your details off as much as can...hope that's OK with you...

But I would really like to know why you did choose to treat the wood the way you did in NY...maybe I'll change my mind

I know I said I would not continue - but you ask me a pointed question so I must.....

First - just to clarify - yes Tony designed and constructed the studios in NYC - I was not there - never saw them - had nothing to do with them - until I became involved in PSNE. Hell, when he built those studios I had just barely started my career in construction...... I was just a residential framer at the time.

You misunderstand what I am saying here - in each and every studio Tony has ever designed and built - he has always has to add urethane treatments to the spaces to get them to work exactly as he intended.

PSNE (as I stated) has no finishes on the wood - it is raw - that is what amazed Tony the most - we were actually going to meet the day after his visit so we could spend time to go over the finish requirements in the space - except when he tested the rooms they were already exactly as they were supposed to be..... for the first time in his life a room of his has been constructed that did not require those finishes......

In other words, although he designed the rooms - this build perfected his design......

Both Tony and I attribute that to my understanding of his design in it's entirety.......... this is why we became close friends - and still stay in touch on a regular basis today......

Not only do I not mind your using everything you can out of my book - I am actually pleased to hear that........

That (in my mind) is the biggest compliment anyone could ever pay me.........

Thanks,

Rod

[StewartFang]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

I know I said I would not continue - but you ask me a pointed question so I must.....

First - just to clarify - yes Tony designed and constructed the studios in NYC - I was not there - never saw them - had nothing to do with them - until I became involved in PSNE. Hell, when he built those studios I had just barely started my career in construction...... I was just a residential framer at the time.

You misunderstand what I am saying here - in each and every studio Tony has ever designed and built - he has always has to add urethane treatments to the spaces to get them to work exactly as he intended.

PSNE (as I stated) has no finishes on the wood - it is raw - that is what amazed Tony the most - we were actually going to meet the day after his visit so we could spend time to go over the finish requirements in the space - except when he tested the rooms they were already exactly as they were supposed to be..... for the first time in his life a room of his has been constructed that did not require those finishes......

In other words, although he designed the rooms - this build perfected his design......

Both Tony and I attribute that to my understanding of his design in it's entirety.......... this is why we became close friends - and still stay in touch on a regular basis today......

Not only do I not mind your using everything you can out of my book - I am actually pleased to hear that........

That (in my mind) is the biggest compliment anyone could ever pay me.........

Thanks,

Rod

oK so I got that backwards...and am happy because I feel like i don't want to treat the wood...however I can;t tell you why...just an instinct...but I am completely open to being wrong about it...and am sure it's situational....anyway Rod yeah thanks for all your posting everywhere...It's been a tremendous help...and your book seems like finding a treasure...it seems like it's all there...but someone like me just needs to read it many times to actually start to get it!

[RedTuxedo]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Red,

That does not mean (by extension) that Stradivarius would have been excellent at room design......


Rod

Eh, you're probably right.

[DanDan]

Hello guys so my passion is music. I am starting arquitecture undergrad after summer.. and was just wandering how you got to design studios??

what does it take? Are the physics in studio design to complex to learn on my own?

Recording Studio Design by Philip Newell

Architectural Acoustics by Long

Read those and your questions will be very well answered.
DD

[pogs]

Originally Posted by audiothings

OP... you are interested in music and architecture... a great combination for an acoustician... Go for it!

There are also less glamourous, but shall we say, more important jobs for acousticians. Like noise control in factories, restaurants, stations, airports and public places. And wind tunnels. And aircraft. Like setting up conference rooms for optimal audio clarity. Like treating radio studios, shooting stages, newsrooms... Like building concert halls. And cinema theaters. And foley rooms. And...

Building studios is one small room within the mansion of acoustics (pun intended)... a space that is being increasingly populated by know-it-all amateurs like myself. Others might disagree, but it is my contention that studio design, like music itself, is going to the hands of amateurs... It is a trend that cannot be reversed, thanks to the way music production is "evolving", and due to free flow of information on the internet.

The low and mid end jobs will be done by flatlanders like me, for little or nothing, just because its fun... The real jobs will go to guys like Thomas Jouanjean and the bigger consultants like Pilchner-Schoustal and Munro Acoustics, who have a proven track record of creating some of the finest rooms in the world, over and over again. With hard, uncompromising science, and figures to back it up.

My suggestion is that you pursue architectural acoustics and structural engineering with the intention of mastering the science. And keep yourself updated with the music scene and progress and trends in small room acoustics. In addition to the textbooks you will read, also read stuff like 'Recording Studio Design' by Newell, to clue yourself into the real world of studio building. Spend a little time here perusing all the recommended reading and studio build threads, and you will be able to build studios for your friends with no serious budgets. Make your mistakes in the field before you announce yourself as a pro. Then go out there, armed with your scientific and real world knowledge and build the real studios of the future.

Of course, studio design is much more than acoustics. There is systems specification and integration, HVAC design, aesthetic considerations, a genuine understanding of the clients requirements, legal issues and clearances... You have to get into all this stuff... buy hey, you're young (presumably) and are in the best position to take this seriously.