Flutter Echo

[sozaye]

What can I treat my room with to stop flutter echo. Auralex is way to expensive. Heard a rumor soundboard from home depot placed on walls covered with fabric work. Is this true.
Room used for mixing and recording vocals. Need flat response from room.
Monitors are Mackie MR5s

[localhost127]

Originally Posted by sozaye

What can I treat my room with to stop flutter echo. Auralex is way to expensive. Heard a rumor soundboard from home depot placed on walls covered with fabric work. Is this true.
Room used for mixing and recording vocals. Need flat response from room.
Monitors are Mackie MR5s

you could buy a large, flat reflective surface (wood slat) and angle it away on one side of the two parallel boundaries that are causing the flutter echo. this would likely be the cheapest route.

[Rod Gervais]

sozaye,

The rumor would be wrong (like most rumors) - material is much too dense to serve any useful purpose for room treatments - and too light to serve any real purpose for room isolation.........

Rod Gervais
Director of Education
GIK Acoustics
Gik Acoustics USA
Gik Acoustics Europe
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

[Gdupproductions]

Originally Posted by localhost127

you could buy a large, flat reflective surface (wood slat) and angle it away on one side of the two parallel boundaries that are causing the flutter echo. this would likely be the cheapest route.

Or Foam in a DIY store.....they most likely sell it for sound isolation.
So that gots to do it 2. Looks mutch like aauralex foam.

[jhbrandt]

Originally Posted by Gdupproductions

Or Foam in a DIY store.....they most likely sell it for sound isolation.
So that gots to do it 2. Looks mutch like aauralex foam.

OH - MY - GOD!

You're joking, right?

If not, you need to go to my VooDoo page. Please do not continue to spread bullshit like that. Because someone has been telling you lies.

cheers,
John

Oxymoron = a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”
--- and another example: "Sound-proofing Foam"

[Gdupproductions]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

OH - MY - GOD!

You're joking, right?

If not, you need to go to my VooDoo page. Please do not continue to spread bullshit like that. Because someone has been telling you lies.

cheers,
John

Oxymoron = a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”
--- and another example: "Sound-proofing Foam"

Wel it is sound proofing foam im talking bout....

[jhbrandt]

haha.. Well, my friend...

Sound-proofing foam does not exist.

It's like 'the skin of your teeth' or

'flatter than a flitter'
or
'chicken lips'

they don't exist.

Kinda like one of my favorite sayings, "Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets full."

Cheers,
John

[Gdupproductions]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

haha.. Well, my friend...

Sound-proofing foam does not exist.

It's like 'the skin of your teeth' or

'flatter than a flitter'
or
'chicken lips'

they don't exist.

Kinda like one of my favorite sayings, "Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets full."

Cheers,
John

it's dutch but anyhow.
Maclean Products

[jhbrandt]

Thanks!!

- Another one for my VooDoo list.

Maclean Products - These are outright lies. Also note that polyurethane is useless for acoustics.

- John

[sozaye]

LOL this turned into a debate. I'm not trying to sound proof the room. I need to make the room partially dead or all the way dead. Not trying to spend an excessive amount of money. Thanks for all your help

[DanDan]

Fabric can kill the high end of flutter echo. Bedspreads, throws and such work fine. Try pinning some up there or hang them over horizontal mic stand booms, see what happens. They do work better with an airgap, but if it's just the ping you want gone flat to the wall works.
DD

[johndykstra]

it's great to provide examples of how to kill flutter echo, as it is the title of the thread and all... but in the OP, he also mentions needing a flat mixing environment. Treating walls with thin fabric will only serve to make the room really low end heavy.

OP, standard answers apply. Measure the room's response and come back with some graphs. Flutter echo is easy, and the last thing you should fix... as much of your low frequency treatments will already be helping. After bass trapping, it's common to feel as though your flutter is WORSE. It's not... your bass range is ringing less, so the flutter is perceived as stronger. It will still be just as easy to "kill".

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Gdupproductions

Wel it is sound proofing foam im talking bout....

Gd,


John is right as usual, there is no such thing as "soundproofing foam" - and companies who market it as such are just showing the vast wealth of ignorance they possess.

Nothing in the form of room treatments is applied to the inside of for the purpose of "soundproofing".

It is really just that simple........

Rod Gervais
Director of Education
GIK Acoustics
Gik Acoustics USA
Gik Acoustics Europe
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

[RJHollins]

Maybe 'broadband acoustic absorbers' made with rigid fiberglass.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by localhost127

you could buy a large, flat reflective surface (wood slat) and angle it away on one side of the two parallel boundaries that are causing the flutter echo. this would likely be the cheapest route.

Would this work (at least temporarily) to reduce some bad stuff from first reflection points? Like when you see the monitor in the mirror, angle the board so you don't see it anymore? Obviously it'd be pretty tough to reach down in the bass realm, but would a 3'x3' piece of plywood or MDF help reduce some problems?


Sorry, I'm off topic and wondering aloud, as usual...

[jhbrandt]

Originally Posted by Torea

Would this work (at least temporarily) to reduce some bad stuff from first reflection points? Like when you see the monitor in the mirror, angle the board so you don't see it anymore? Obviously it'd be pretty tough to reach down in the bass realm, but would a 3'x3' piece of plywood or MDF help reduce some problems?


Sorry, I'm off topic and wondering aloud, as usual...

Yes, that would work (in general). Many RFZ rooms use reflective panels like that. But you still need trapping.

Cheers,
John

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by RJHollins

Maybe 'broadband acoustic absorbers' made with rigid fiberglass.

Actually you could just buy fluffy fiberglass and nail it to the wall. It is going to look kind of ghetto, but would work.

[Torea]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Yes, that would work (in general). Many RFZ rooms use reflective panels like that. But you still need trapping.

Cheers,
John

Ahh but of course. I'm guessing I'd need a monstrous board to reflect bass, and by that time, I'd just be sitting alone in a football field!

Thanks for clarifying

[Gdupproductions]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Gd,


John is right as usual, there is no such thing as "soundproofing foam" - and companies who market it as such are just showing the vast wealth of ignorance they possess.

Nothing in the form of room treatments is applied to the inside of for the purpose of "soundproofing".

It is really just that simple........

Rod Gervais
Director of Education
GIK Acoustics
Gik Acoustics USA
Gik Acoustics Europe
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

Holy sh*t =/ .....i only named that becuz thats what the products descirption says.

I know glassfibre/rockwool is used for soundabsorption and that the amount off absorption is based on gas flow resistivety.

[lurxtlifeson]

Originally Posted by johndykstra

it's great to provide examples of how to kill flutter echo, as it is the title of the thread and all... but in the OP, he also mentions needing a flat mixing environment. Treating walls with thin fabric will only serve to make the room really low end heavy.

OP, standard answers apply. Measure the room's response and come back with some graphs. Flutter echo is easy, and the last thing you should fix... as much of your low frequency treatments will already be helping. After bass trapping, it's common to feel as though your flutter is WORSE. It's not... your bass range is ringing less, so the flutter is perceived as stronger. It will still be just as easy to "kill".

I hope this is true. I just spent 3 weeks researching, 2 weeks planning, and a month building bass traps for my room and when I installed them last night and clapped, the flutter sounded just as bad as before I was quite frustrated because I thought my traps were going to help kill the flutter since I had so many of them. Anyone else have similar experiences (and solutions)?

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by lurxtlifeson

I hope this is true. I just spent 3 weeks researching, 2 weeks planning, and a month building bass traps for my room and when I installed them last night and clapped, the flutter sounded just as bad as before I was quite frustrated because I thought my traps were going to help kill the flutter since I had so many of them. Anyone else have similar experiences (and solutions)?

Well this depends on what your room is for - handling the flutter echo is easy - treatment locations depend on the source....

Flutter echo is always caused by a direct signal interacting with a reflected signal at (or very near to) your ears...... treating mirror points between you and the sound source will always deal with the issue.....

In a mixing room clapping your hands is a pretty useless test - this because where you are you will not be the sound source - your ears are not where the sound is emanating from...... so you treat reflective surfaces at mirror points between you and the speakers.

When protecting from vocal reflections into a mic the treatment is the same - except now you want to deal with reflective points between the hard surfaces and the mic/vocalist......

Very easy to deal with - you should have no problems whatsoever getting this done to satisfaction........

Rod

[takman]

Originally Posted by lurxtlifeson

I hope this is true. I just spent 3 weeks researching, 2 weeks planning, and a month building bass traps for my room and when I installed them last night and clapped, the flutter sounded just as bad as before I was quite frustrated because I thought my traps were going to help kill the flutter since I had so many of them. Anyone else have similar experiences (and solutions)?

bass traps arent going to "kill" the flutter echo, because they are placed in the corners of the room.

Flutter echo happens between two hard parallel surfaces. i imagine in the corners there are some reflections that maybe contribute a degree to flutter echo, to what degree, if any, im not sure.

but the main problem here is between the two parallel walls.

[lurxtlifeson]

Originally Posted by takman

bass traps arent going to "kill" the flutter echo, because they are placed in the corners of the room.

Flutter echo happens between two hard parallel surfaces. i imagine in the corners there are some reflections that maybe contribute a degree to flutter echo, to what degree, if any, im not sure.

but the main problem here is between the two parallel walls.

I actually put up bass traps on the walls also. I was under the impression that putting up absorption on the front wall and also on the side walls at the early reflection points would deaden the flutter. I didn't want to skew the room's response with broadband absorbers, though, so I used 4 inch thick Roxul SAFB or AFB in a frame spaced 4 inches from the wall for my side wall absorbers. This didn't seem to help much though, even though there was a total of 64 square feet of absorption on the side walls alone I think I'm going to start a separate thread with specifics of my room and risk being chastised for "wanting others to do the work for me"...

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by lurxtlifeson

I was under the impression that putting up absorption on the front wall and also on the side walls at the early reflection points would deaden the flutter.

I am going to try this again, as I apparently presented this badly in my last post.......

You did not respond to the room use - but I assume you are speaking about a control room......

So you set up some speakers - put yourself in the listening position, and then installed room treatments at the mirror points between the 2.

Then you stood somewhere and clapped your hands - low and behold there was flutter echo.......

Well assuming that you were in your sitting position - with your ears where they would be when mixing - it would be one heck of a trick to clap your hands in the position of your speaker's acoustic center....

And that is the reflection your treatments are designed for.

If you think that they will stop all flutter echo in the room then you completely misunderstand the concept...........

Now - if you could get someone else to clap their hands - in the exact position of the acoustic center of your speakers in their present position - then you should not hear flutter echo......

In fact - a decent test might be to record yourself clapping and play it back through your system to see if the effect is the same........

Rod

[johndykstra]

Hey Lurx.

Of course Rod is right.

However, I can imagine that after spending so much time, effort, and money treating your room... that when sitting in your mix position when you heard flutter echo you must have been peeved. I get that, and it starts you to think you've done something wrong or were mislead.

We treat control rooms, first and foremost for the sound that travels from a speaker(s) to your ear. Now if it were me, and there was a flutter at the mix position it would drive me nuts every time I or someone talked or snapped my fingers... laughing... all of that would be so distracting in a treated room, because as I said in my original post, it's more pronounced.

But also as I said before, it's easily handled. The proper thing to do here would be to look to room measurements to investigate whether or not your decay time is even, your ETC is clean and clear in the first ~20msec. Explore what would be the proper method...perhaps you should have more broadband traps... perhaps you should investigate tuned traps to really handle some lingering lowend. However, all of that aside, flutter echo can be destroyed so easily once you verify the two parallel surfaces that are causing it. If it's the ceiling and floor, throw a rug down. If it's the walls, any non flat object in the way will take care of it. Hang a guitar on the wall. A coat rack, book shelf, statue, tapestry, house plant,..... really...anything.

[lurxtlifeson]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

I am going to try this again, as I apparently presented this badly in my last post.......

You did not respond to the room use - but I assume you are speaking about a control room......

So you set up some speakers - put yourself in the listening position, and then installed room treatments at the mirror points between the 2.

Then you stood somewhere and clapped your hands - low and behold there was flutter echo.......

Well assuming that you were in your sitting position - with your ears where they would be when mixing - it would be one heck of a trick to clap your hands in the position of your speaker's acoustic center....

And that is the reflection your treatments are designed for.

If you think that they will stop all flutter echo in the room then you completely misunderstand the concept...........

Now - if you could get someone else to clap their hands - in the exact position of the acoustic center of your speakers in their present position - then you should not hear flutter echo......

In fact - a decent test might be to record yourself clapping and play it back through your system to see if the effect is the same........

Rod

Sorry about that, somehow I completely missed your post when I replied before. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[psykostx]

Standard acoustical ceiling tiles are good for flutter echo. You could build a frame from some 1x3's and place a few cieling tiles inside, then hang it like a picture wherever flutter rears it's ugly head(s)... total cost per panel would be less than $50. Honestly, on the real cheap, hang a blanket from the cieling about 2-6" from the problem wall. Even a bed sheet can reduce flutter significantly if you drape it loosely.

[lurxtlifeson]

Originally Posted by psykostx

Standard acoustical ceiling tiles are good for flutter echo. You could build a frame from some 1x3's and place a few cieling tiles inside, then hang it like a picture wherever flutter rears it's ugly head(s)... total cost per panel would be less than $50. Honestly, on the real cheap, hang a blanket from the cieling about 2-6" from the problem wall. Even a bed sheet can reduce flutter significantly if you drape it loosely.

Yup, I have 4 24" x 48" ceiling tiles I made of Roxul Rockboard 80 and frame to be installed in two days

[psykostx]