Lead Carpenter in NYC?

[JohnDavisNYC]

Hey everyone,

Aaron and I at the Bunker are excited about the new studio facility we're building this summer, and really excited about the plans that Rod Gervais is working on.

We are looking for a good lead carpenter for our crew for the framing portion of the build-out. We have a few people we are talking to, but want to explore all the options before we enter into a contract.

Obviously, the carpenter would have to have excellent cutting, measuring, and layout skills, as well as being able to manage a small crew.

PM me or email at: john AT thebunkerstudio.com

It would be great to hear of positive and negative experiences, as well.

thanks!

John

[ritelec]

"We are looking for a good (cheap) lead carpenter"
"We have a few people we are talking to (spinning they're wheels,shopping numbers)"
"But want to explore all the options (? plan,wood,cut and install...?)
"But want to explore all the options (and waist more people's time) before we enter into a contract (and get pissed if we hired the wrong guy)".


Sorry for the negative feed back.

I'm in construction, and it burns my ars when people "shop" numbers.

[JohnDavisNYC]

wow. you are awesome. so are your assumptions.

we want to find the right guy for the job. nothing more, nothing less.

clearly we won't be hiring you, due to your stellar attitude right off the bat.

i guess what would make the most sense would be to just blindly enter into a contract with the first person we can find that says they cut wood, and not do any research into who is good at building studios and might be local, or have friends who are local and into building studios.

good point.

john

[bdenton]

JMFO, but I think the OP was being way overly harsh here...

Doing a studio build-out presents some challenges that have probably not been faced by someone who has just been knocking out "little pink houses" out in suburbia.

A lot of people simply don't have occasion to hire, or even hang out with, skilled tradesmen. Nor do they necessarily know exactly how do get what they want done accomplished.

Anybody can say, "I want an outlet right there", but they may well not know whether an additional breaker will be required, what type of wire must be used, or what is the appropriate grounding method for a recording studion.

And that's why people try to hire the appropriate people for the job.

I live in Pittsburgh, so I am reasonably certain there are people here who could handle any kind of work I might need done.

But I don't know any of them! And none of my friends or neighbors have built recording studios, so they are useless as far as connecting me with people who have the requisite skills.

So, if I wanted to have some studio work done, I would probably do a post here looking for someone who knows how to do what I might want done.

That wouldn't mean that I'm looking for someone cheaper...it would mean that I was just looking for someone...

[Rod Gervais]

ritelec,

These guys are getting ready to build a major studio - they certainly have a right to shop for the right person to lead the construction crew

I can understand John's reaction to your post.

Rod

[ritelec]

"We are looking for a good lead carpenter for our crew for the framing portion of the build-out."

Say's nothing about designing or having knowledge of acoustics.
Strait out carpentry work.

"excellent cutting, measuring, and layout skills, as well as being able to manage a small crew"

That's "want ad", "craigs list" looking for a carpenter ad.


"We have a few people we are talking to"

OK, some referrals, let me see what you've done (although it's just rough framing)(and also to see if you finished the job)


"but want to explore all the options" what options??? You're looking for a carpenter.


"as well as being able to manage a small crew". Thats a contractor.
not too many people take orders from someone who's not signing their pay check.



"ritelec,

These guys are getting ready to build a major studio - they certainly have a right to shop for the right person to lead the construction crew

I can understand John's reaction to your post.

Rod"

ok

[thebunker]

wow indeed! I didn't realize we were in for such a GS burn for asking if anyone knew a good carpenter in NYC who had experience building studios.

Our conversation earlier today was something like...hey i wonder if anyone on the forums has used someone good that they could recommend as we need a lead carpenter for this project and it has to be someone that will help us build exactly what rod designs.

it's a pretty huge prospect for DIYers like John and me building a new space like this and trying to do it properly. Everything we've done in the past has been us figuring it out ourselves and framing, hanging sheetrock, and finishing to the best of our abilities. This is way beyong this and we need experienced help. We also don't know a whole bunch of carpenters so we thought we'd reach out to our community and see if any of you folk had a good person for the job.

[Rod Gervais]

I do not usually let myself get into pissing contests - but you are so far outside of anything real - and attacking my client in the process - that I really feel the need.

Originally Posted by ritelec

Say's nothing about designing or having knowledge of acoustics.
Strait out carpentry work.

Ummm......... let's see - they've hired a professional designer - who is at least a little bit knowledgeable about acoustics - to design their studio - and is going to provide both a complete set of detailed construction documents as well as oversight.

And you believe this lead carpenter they hire has to have knowledge about design and acoustics?

I would guess that you must be pretty green in the construction industry if you cannot take a set of plans and follow them without being an architect and having knowledge about the manner in which buildings are designed.

Did you get your architectural degree before you decided to work in the trade?

Usually people who do that actually become architects........

Do you carry your copy of Architectural Graphic Standards with you to every job site?

I am just curious here....... you say you work in the trade - and yet (must) have this vast knowledge of architecture in the area you work....... perhaps we could discuss it for a bit...... I am very interested in the level of your knowledge.

That's "want ad", "craigs list" looking for a carpenter ad.

You really need to learn to pay attention to what people write.....

Which part of "It would be great to hear of positive and negative experiences, as well." (which put a personal spin on it) didn't you get?

Because I could always break it down into smaller words for you so that it would be easier for you to understand.

They are obviously looking for people to recommend to them, people that they actually know, hopefully someone who is capable of following plans. Knowing a person's credentials ( read "capabilities") before talking to them is always a plus.

OK, some referrals, let me see what you've done (although it's just rough framing)(and also to see if you finished the job)

Interesting - what you don't know about studio construction could probably fill an entire book.

When you live in the world of constructing little houses made from ticky tacky - that's just rough rough framing.

When you construct a major recording studio - you had better be capable of a hell of a lot more than that - even for the framing........ my tolerances for framing are real tight - and I am not shy about making people tear things down if they screw up.

Are you capable of laying out interior angles that carry to 2 decimal points?

Or constructing bastard roof frames that create vaulted barrel roll ceilings?

Because you better be if your leading the crew on one of my studio projects.

"but want to explore all the options" what options??? You're looking for a carpenter.

Wrong - carpenters are the people putting together what this guy lays out and cuts to fit - they are looking for exactly what they said - they are looking for a lead carpenter.

Perhaps they don't have any of those in your construction world - but I have been doing this now for over 35 years - and I know plenty of them.

And what about once the framing is done - and the finish work starts? The custom made doors - the case work - the room finishes and integrated room treatments?

You see - again you don't have a clue. They said they were looking for a lead "carpenter" - you apparently don't know what a carpenter is.

I do - because I was a carpenter for a lot of years.

Yes I can frame - I can also custom build staircases, cabinets, doors, windows. I can also hang (and trim) doors and windows, even take raw materials into my woodshop and make custom moldings. I used to make custom greenhouses, install elaborate coffered ceilings, extensive crown moldings.

A framer is just that - a framer - a trim man is a trim man - a cabinet installer installs cabinets, but a carpenter can do it all.

You obviously can't - but carpenters, real tradesmen, they can.

"as well as being able to manage a small crew". Thats a contractor.
not too many people take orders from someone who's not signing their pay check.

Your lack of knowledge never ceases to amaze me.......

I have run plenty of jobs (while swinging a hammer) for companies I didn't own..... and believe me when I tell you this - I could have cared less if the person on my crew was the owner's son - when I tell someone to do something they do it..... and you want to know why they do it? Because if they don't do it - I make them gone.

Very quickly - the very same minute of the very same day they decide to challenge my authority.

That's the way it works in the real world.......

The owner hires a person to run work for them - and they give them not only responsibility - but also authority.......

And they make certain that the people working under that person know that he has that authority........

And it's done all the time - all kinds of businesses - people hire managers, foremen, directors, presidents, team leaders - none of whom sign the paychecks - but all of whom have the power to fire anyone who is insubordinate to them.

Now theres another whole book that could be written about what you don't, this time about business.......

You are a real piece of work..........

Perhaps you would do well to listen to the old adage:

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool - then to open it and remove all doubt".

Rod

[johndykstra]

Wow.

Being a professional, it would seem to me you should be accustomed to prospective clients doing their due diligence to ensure they are getting the best bang for their buck. Or in this case, making sure they don't make a critical error on a project easily in six digits. I sell hearing aids for a living (yes I get the irony). Am I a little bummed out when a client wants to check with competitors before purchasing? Of course. But I make sure to do as good a job possible selling myself as their best option... Not complain about.

Grow up, and act like a professional.

Or continue trolling.

Op, good luck on your project. Props on hooking such a fine designer.

[Amaranthine]

If you do find a carpenter with potential do not automatically reject him because he has not worked on studios. There is nothing special about building a studio. The key is if he will execute the plan as presented and in the detail presented. That's the hard part, weeding out the "this is how I've always done it" guy. A real, professional carpenter understands it's not about himself but about the finished product. He will also understand what that is worth, so be prepared to pay way more than you expect.

[johndykstra]

Yeah. The guy who insists he knows all about soundproofing... Cork board on the walls does wonders. Why are you having me build two walls? I could see this getting ugly quick.

[ritelec]

Lighten up please.

I'm just alittle tired of the "free estimate" is all, especially when gas is $4 a gallon (and at times estimates take days) and people are just trying to keep their contractor honest and at times have no intention of even hiring you...
Selling something (talking) or pushing a pencil (or moving a decimal point) to stay capitative is a bit different than "Sharpening" your pencil to get the job and then go out, break your back or knees or rotator cuffs... and do the work.

I think the OP's post was to enquire about looking for a carpenter, but also writing a post because he's very excited about what's going on (not necessarily shopping #'s).

"If you do find a carpenter with potential do not automatically reject him because he has not worked on studios. There is nothing special about building a studio."
Exactly. And actually, you may not want to get someone with that background as you might be butting heads with him/her. Too many chefs spoil......

"And you believe this lead carpenter they hire has to have knowledge about design and acoustics"?
No. Thats not what I wrote. He doesn't have to. That's the point.

"I am just curious here....... you say you work in the trade - and yet (must) have this vast knowledge of architecture in the area you work....... perhaps we could discuss it for a bit...... I am very interested in the level of your knowledge".
Perhaps we could. You want to talk about Mrs. Jones (the name has been changed to protect the innocent) multi million dollar home, or maybe Continental baggage handling systems, or Fedex warehouse and distribution hubs.? Water treatment facilities? Fire training facilities?
I'd rather talk about acoustics

"Are you capable of laying out interior angles that carry to 2 decimal points"?
Not to blow my own horn but, I've done some pretty impressive, sometimes amazing things Rod (although I've never met Steven Speilberg).

"Because if they don't do it - I make them gone.
Very quickly - the very same minute of the very same day they decide to challenge my authority". "and attacking my client".

"I have run plenty of jobs (while swinging a hammer) for companies I didn't own..... and believe me when I tell you this - I could have cared less if the person on my crew was the owner's son"
Ever try that with 18 Union workers, working around the clock for 36 hours while there telling you you have to put your tools down cause your running too many guys?

"Usually people who do that actually become architects........"
Yes, And those that can do, and those that can't teach.

"And what about once the framing is done - and the finish work starts? The custom made doors - the case work - the room finishes and integrated room treatments?
"A framer is just that - a framer - a trim man is a trim man - a cabinet installer installs cabinets, but a carpenter can do it all."
The original post reads... "good lead carpenter for our crew for the framing portion of the build-out."

"Do you carry your copy of Architectural Graphic Standards with you to every job site"?
No, I have to carry a state license and work permit.


"And it's done all the time - all kinds of businesses - people hire managers, foremen, directors, presidents,"......Maybe Obama can do the "carpentry" work.

[Rod Gervais]

I am pretty much done with this - it's clear form your response to my post that you really don't have a clue..... nor are interested in learning anything from it.

Your frustration with "free estimates" is meaningless, it's part of the cost of operating a business...... the payback is down the road if the project comes through - and "oh well" if it doesn't.

Just spent about 4 weeks of my time putting together bids and numbers on a preliminary budget for a 13 million dollar project that may or may not even take place. If they get the funding (which is why they needed the budget) then I'll get to go through it all again in a competitive bidding process to see if I can get us the job.

And if I can't - oh well - that's life.......

If you find the process so frustrating - then go to work for someone else...... perhaps being in business for yourself isn't the way to go.

Your personal problems and frustrations do not give you cause to bash these people....... that's the act of a child.

The did not ask for a contractor - they did not say they were looking to hire someone for cheap money - they simply said they were looking for a qualified lead carpenter......... and you proceeded to slam them.

As far as butting heads with someone experienced in that regard, why would that be? A highly respected studio designer/contractor built a project I designed and we never butted heads......

Any professional is going to be highly respectful of any other professional, it goes with he turf..... but you probably don't realize that - you seem to have issues with basic respect seeing the way you came off to John.

Yes I have worked with union crews on numerous occasions - and with only one exception - (and in that case even his BA said he was a loser) they have all appreciated the fact that I was busting my butt along with them and wasn't afraid to get my hands dirty.

I am surprised that you succeed in your business with your attitude towards people...... if you can't come off any better than this when you are able to read everything you write before any one else sees it - and thus should have time to reflect on how your words will portray you - I cannot imagine what you must be like in person - where the words can just tumble out of your mouth and never be corrected.....

Based on everything you said (and didn't say) in your response - my take is that you still don't get it.........

By the way - you opened your response with the comment "Lighten up please", which I find to be (at best) mildly amusing - seeing as you were the one who set the tone for this.......

Rod

[ritelec]

You were the one
You probably don't realize that
You opened your response
keep Your mouth shut
You obviously can't
written about what You don't
Do You carry Your copy of,
Did You get
what You must be like in person
etc........

Who's attacking and being childish?

My apologies for "attacking" your client God (I mean Rod) Gervais.



Rich

[audiothings]

Rod,

Being unidentifiable on the internet could mean at least two different things. Somebody doesn't want to be identified for their lack of accomplishments, or somebody who doesn't want to be identified, for one or more of a number of other reasons.

We don't know who Ritelec is, its risky to question his experience. On this very forum, I've seen people look very foolish, for having insulted very accomplished people. I think that he perhaps over reacted to the OP (tho' I get his drift), but I wouldn't be surprised if he has a great deal of experience.

To the OP, all best wishes for a great build! Hope you find the right team.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by audiothings

Rod,

Being unidentifiable on the internet could mean at least two different things. Somebody doesn't want to be identified for their lack of accomplishments, or somebody who doesn't want to be identified, for one or more of a number of other reasons.

We don't know who Ritelec is, its risky to question his experience. On this very forum, I've seen people look very foolish, for having insulted very accomplished people. I think that he perhaps over reacted to the OP (tho' I get his drift), but I wouldn't be surprised if he has a great deal of experience.

To the OP, all best wishes for a great build! Hope you find the right team.

Audio,

Nothing would surprise me in this place.......

I have no issue with this person other than he (for no reason other than his (according to him) frustration with some other people or situation) jumped all over John for asking a simple question.

I was joking with him at one point in the day - even acknowledged he had a good idea idea. Did not see things coming down to this based on my first encounter with him.

I suppose what's really bothering me is the fact that he isn't willing to man up - own the fact that he acted badly - and apologize for the way he came off to John.

Hell, we all come off badly once in a while - but most of us own up to it and apologize for screw-ups when other people let us know we crossed a line........

John's a good man - and deserved better than he got for asking a simple question.

In the scheme of things this is meaningless - the new Bunker Studios will be a beautiful facility, a great build - John and Aaron are smart businessmen - very successful in their existing studio - and their success will carry over into this studio when all is said and done.

Thanks for chipping in.

Sincerely,

Rod

[audiothings]

the new Bunker Studios will be a beautiful facility, a great build - John and Aaron are smart businessmen - very successful in their existing studio - and their success will carry over into this studio when all is said and done.

That is what we look forward to... All the very best with it! The world needs more real studios... my city of 5 million people and over 2000 "studios" is quickly running out of any real options.

[ritelec]

Thank you audiothings !

Thine shall be knighted and dubbed "The Peace Maker".

My apologies, to both Rod and John.
Best of all with the new studio!

Rich



By the way Rod, You mentioned that maybe I should get out of the construction business. YES!!!! I agree. Been trying to do that for 30 yrs now!!! And, that's what brings me to these rooms.
Maybe someday.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by ritelec

My apologies, to both Rod and John.
Best of all with the new studio!

Rich,


Thanks, apology accepted and mine offered in return.....

I guess I got a little carried away in my response.

[quote[By the way Rod, You mentioned that maybe I should get out of the construction business. YES!!!! I agree. Been trying to do that for 30 yrs now!!! And, that's what brings me to these rooms.
Maybe someday. [/QUOTE]

lol, not me. I have been very blessed in my career in this industry. Got out of the residential (meaning single family homes) back in the early 80's - which was a huge sigh of relief because (for me anyway) there is nothing more annoying than dealing with a home owner.

I remember doing some custom casework for a guy who not only choose the stain - he actually provided the product himself so that it could not possibly get screwed up - and then - at the end of the day when he came home and walked into his new library - looked at the bookcases and cabinetry and said it was the wrong color - and that he expected me to replace them (at my cost.)

His rationale was that any person in their right mind would have known that this was obviously the wrong color stain for a library.......

As you well know - in the commercial world it's all about the owner getting you out the door and them making money with the space - so the turn over is much less annoying.

I am certain you have horror stories of your own that are much the same in nature....

Escaping from that was a good thing in my life.

Anyway, glad to be on better terms with you......

Thanks again,

Rod

[johndykstra]

I love happy endings

[Ray1nthebox]

Hi, not sure if you found your carpenter yet but me being a carpenter in upstate NY I can tell you a good carpenter can be hard to find and hiring a bad one can cause a lot of problems financially and structurally. A few suggestion to help you. Look for someone who is local to the area where you are building, this way you can possibly go and look at a job he is currently working on and see for yourself the quality of his work and how he keeps his jobsite. Plus not having to travel too far saves time, money and traffic related stress. Look for the jobsite to be clean and lumber, materials stacked orderly. This is a good sign of organization and efficiency. The best way to determine a good carpenter is how neat he builds and cuts things. A bad sign is lots of missed nails, crooked cuts, leaning studs or supports, out of square, plumb or level structures. The best way to determine is, if possible, to see how the roof rafters are cut or how a set of stairs were cut and assembled by that person. Those are usually the most difficult things to build. The more complex the roof the better the idea you can get. And don't let the old "foundation" or "masonry" is messed up excuse cover up bad work, cause a good carpenter should know how to fix these problems once they are found, and should be able to find them quickly. We deal with bad masonry all the time and the more complex the house, the more messed up the foundation usually is. Look for miter and beveled cuts to be clean and sit flush and tight against the beams they lay on. Bad lumber should be picked through and not installed. These few things should be more than enough to determine the skill level besides having the proper insurances and licenses is also a good tell tale sign and most important is if the person understands the language you speak or vise versa. This is not a discriminatory thing but being able to communicate and understand each other clearly makes the job go a lot smoother with little to no set backs. You have every right to price your job out but bear in mind cheaper is almost never better. If someone under bids the job and doesn't make money on it, the quality will suffer and well they may not show up the following week to finish the job. You don't want someone who is in a rush to finish cause there is no money to be made or has to have another job going on at the same time to make up the money loss. You want the full attention and dedication along with him having a good feeling about working on the job. Positive energy at work makes for good quality of the work. A good carpenter is also one who isn't out of work either. In these bad times right now in the housing market, there are plenty of laid off carpenters out there, but my boss and I are still busy with little down time between jobs and we work for several builders and have plenty of references and almost never advertise for work. Word of mouth and repeat customers are good signs of quality and workmanship. Also if a carpenter has no experience in building studios or acoustical designs and what not, I wouldn't concern myself about it a whole lot, cause every job and every house and roof we have to build is like doing it for the first time. Good carpenters have great problem solving skills and on the spot understanding of how things should get built. One more thing! Make sure the boss is on the job everyday. He's the one who owns the business and is responsible for the work that is done. Anyways I hope this helps and gives some insight on what to look for or for anyone else who may be In need of a carpenter.
Good luck on the project
Ray

[thebunker]

thanks ray

[solar2]

Also if a carpenter has no experience in building studios or acoustical designs and what not, I wouldn't concern myself about it a whole lot, cause every job and every house and roof we have to build is like doing it for the first time.
Ray[/QUOTE]

This is not true!! The level of acoustical detail is much more higher than any residential build. To often I have seen very skilled and competent carpenters not follow through on studio construction. This is so different then any other form of construction. Your studio is only as good as its weakest point, do it right the first time. Get someone who does this on a regular basis and that works with an actual acoustical designer.
KEN
Welcome to Solar2: Custom recording studio acoustic architectural design and construction

[captain caveman]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Are you capable of laying out interior angles that carry to 2 decimal points?

This a wee point of interest from my time in construction. When it comes to creating build drawings I find that people like yourself with experience of the sharp end tend to come up with the most well thought out ones.

The last thing I want to be doing in strong winds with an A0 drawing flapping in my face is working out trig for XY co-ordinates of angular setting out points when the architect could have put the points and dimensions on the drawing with a couple of clicks in AutoCAD from the comfort of their offices with their feet in a foot spa whilst eating sushi.

Another example was a job I had doing a 10 story or so part commercial, part residential job where we were doing the SFS cassette wall infill, onto which went many different finishes (at different offsets from the grid to finish) on different sections of each elevation. The sizes from the grid the architect gave were to the finish, not to the framing. A few minutes work in AutoCAD to create a separate layer could have saved a lot of cross-referencing difficult to read legends and subsequent offset from framing in separate details on site.

Or the 60 metre long elevation with a single setting out point at one side and all the rest of the sizes going from jamb to jamb the whole way along with no extra offsets detailed anywhere for checking! To avoid cumulative error etc there was a lot of calculator work on site. Again, a few seconds work in a cosy office from someone who has set out in practice would have helped.

Them were the days. All the best with the build!!!

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by captain caveman

This a wee point of interest from my time in construction. When it comes to creating build drawings I find that people like yourself with experience of the sharp end tend to come up with the most well thought out ones.

The last thing I want to be doing in strong winds with an A0 drawing flapping in my face is working out trig for XY co-ordinates of angular setting out points when the architect could have put the points and dimensions on the drawing with a couple of clicks in AutoCAD from the comfort of their offices with their feet in a foot spa whilst eating sushi.

Another example was a job I had doing a 10 story or so part commercial, part residential job where we were doing the SFS cassette wall infill, onto which went many different finishes (at different offsets from the grid to finish) on different sections of each elevation. The sizes from the grid the architect gave were to the finish, not to the framing. A few minutes work in AutoCAD to create a separate layer could have saved a lot of cross-referencing difficult to read legends and subsequent offset from framing in separate details on site.

Or the 60 metre long elevation with a single setting out point at one side and all the rest of the sizes going from jamb to jamb the whole way along with no extra offsets detailed anywhere for checking! To avoid cumulative error etc there was a lot of calculator work on site. Again, a few seconds work in a cosy office from someone who has set out in practice would have helped.

Them were the days. All the best with the build!!!

Cap,

Although I do understand what you're saying - I would add the following.

My drawings are always very detailed, I provide separate sheets specific to framing - interior finishes removed - so that the dimensions are framing to framing.

I work in real world coordinates in order to avoid scaling errors - and round to 1/32" in order to avoid rounding errors.

I have also been known to provide coordinate drawings in every intricate layouts in order to facilitate "ease of layout".

However I want the lead carpenters to have the ability to do this in their own - and to be double checking me all the way through the project.

There was one particular project (very early in my career) where we cut down a tree on the neighboring property due to an error in a stamped certified A-2 survey.

That's all it took to convince me that (beyond the responsibility of the designer/engineer) I had a responsibility to assure the accuracy of the project design.

I have been doing this (long before the advent of computers) at home with every project I have been involved in, and in the process have found tons of errors that exist in drawings that should never have been (40' error in an A-2 survey that would have placed a building on the neighbor's property in one case).

It is always possible for an error to appear in even the most detailed of drawings, using the most sophisticated cad software (I use AutoCAD for all my work) just because errors exist.

As much as I might try to double check all of my drawings and details - every once in a while I come upon something that (when I look at it) I am very puzzled by how it ended up the way it did - knowing full well that I did not place it where it ended up in the drawing.

When I find these things I fix them - but I am certainly not perfect, nor is AutoCAD (or any other CAD program) and thus, no matter how hard I try to avoid it - an error is always possible.

In fact - due to (the pretty wide) variances that exist with the dimensions of framing materials these days - it is pretty much going to happen regardless of how careful one is in the design stage. Hell, I've seen 2x members ranges up to 1/2" difference in width within the same banded load. A designer cannot account for that.

In my mind - (and this comes from the days in the past when I was doing layout - and is not due to the fact that I design today) the layout man has a responsibility to do more than just blindly believe that everything on paper is correct.

Sincerely,

Rod

[Spiritworks]

As an electrical contractor, every set of plans I have seen always says something about " all dimensions must be field-verified before any work is completed ", so I always take anything speced on the plans with a grain of suspician until the architect is on site and gives me the ok.
Anyway, I wish I could do the electrics for you on this, but I'm only licensed in CT.
I'd like to get a tour when it's done.

[captain caveman]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

In my mind - (and this comes from the days in the past when I was doing layout - and is not due to the fact that I design today) the layout man has a responsibility to do more than just blindly believe that everything on paper is correct.

Absolutely, you won't get any arguments from me on that one - measure twice, cut once and all that. With setting-out, making sure the sizes for all elevations tie in with each other and getting marks on the ground is a must before breaking out the shot fire and nail guns.

My point was just that designers with hands on experience have more chance of eliminating a lot of the issues the guys on the ground have with having to refer to multiple drawings where one would do, doing multiple unnecessary calculations because of the lack of a layer or having to request additional points in order to check dimensions in the first place. There's is (usually) all the information required for a build in a set of drawings, it's the way in which the information is assembled is the chance for designers to optimise to save time on site and without know how a layout/setout is done, that aspect is a bit of an "unknown unknown".

On a side note, the amount of people who think that a dimension taken from column H4 or whatever means that they measure from the actual column is staggering, obviously considering the relatively massive tolerances afforded to structural steel. I was more of a "get offsets to the ACTUAL grid down on the concrete and take it from there" kind of guy. Very accurate if I do say so myself.

I loved that side of things and was the layout guy on a number of large scale jobs. Oh well, I'm getting a bit wi****l here, I just sold my Hilti PR25 with tripod, RC, etc the other day which was a bit of a goodbye moment to the biz.

Goodbye construction, hello computing!!

All the best,

Paul

edit: I don't know what is rude about w i s t f u l ... ah, the "keep quiet" bit in the middle.

[ritelec]

Was not going to post for fear of getting pounced on again but had to write.

"measure twice, cut once"

no matter how many times I cut it it's still too short......

[captain caveman]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Was not going to post for fear of getting pounced on again but had to write.

"measure twice, cut once"

no matter how many times I cut it it's still too short......

Is that not "measure once, cut twice"?

Do you have the equivalent of the "100mm error"? Where you want to cut or measure something accurately so you use the 100mm mark on your tape instead of trusting the engineering of the end piece, but where you occasionally have a brain fart and don't add on the 100mm to the measurement? Is it the '10" error' over there?

Also, over here we have (Glasgow, Scotland) a Celtic vs Rangers fascination. In a lot of drawings we have measurement that add up to (or are) 16.90M, 1690mm etc from the protestant designers and 18.88M/1888mm etc from the catholic side. Does any of that silly stuff happen in your drawings with team stuff?

[ritelec]

I must reply to a statement I made. " I've done some amazing things" please to correct... with God, I've done amazing things.


Just that it's been on my mind.

thank you
rich