is it even possible to soundproof a garage door? (PIC)

[blackmajik2021]

I've been doing quite a bit of research about the construction thats going to need to be done while converting my detached garage, but I haven't seen anything about garage doors.

what is to be done when the garage door absolutely can not be removed? (and replaced with a wall & heavy duty door)

because of the way the door is hinged it would be hard to mount anything on the back.

I've considered cutting strips of mass loaded vinyl to fit between the hinges, but I'm not sure if the sound leaking through the gaps will defeat any gains from the vinyl.

I cant really think of anything else. If anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them.

EDIT:

I've read other threads about the issue, but I've yet to see anyone propose MLV.
ALSO - The place needs to be insulated & walled so I dont freeze to death in the winter, is it worth it to bother using a RC with a single layer leaf if the garage door is going to be the weak link? Should I just put plywood over the insulation(or whatever is cheapest)? It seems to me like it would benefit the neighbors facing the directions other than the door, but I'm not sure.

aslo, the room is 20x13, so its not really worth splitting it up and building a room within a room.

Plans for the room: Standard double leaf single wall construction with fluffy fiberglass inside the walls/ceiling and a Resilliant channel. The Building is on an isolated concrete slab. Bass traps in corners and 2" panels at first reflection points. In-wall installation for AC with a heavy duty double or triple seal door for when its not in use.

[jhbrandt]

A straight forward answer would be NO.

You haven't seen many people using MLV for this or other things like this because it's not a good idea.

A door like that would be nearly impossible to seal. You must have a seal like on a submarine door to be effective. Anything less is a waste of time and money.

You are better off; 1. replacing the door with something that will work. or 2. find another place.

or
(Jedi mind trick~)
"you need to go re-think this idea..." - blackmajik2021 repeats.." I need to go re-th....



Cheers,
John

[SAC]

You are looking for a simplistic solution to a much more complex issue.

And I can tell you already, that while the garage door is a weak point, it is NOT the only source of ingress! You will have other flanking paths and weak links n the structure. And sound transmission/isolation issues are ONLY as effective as the WEAKEST link. And like a boat, simply addressing the main leaks will not stop the boat from filling with water and sinking.

Search on "Sound transmission" and "Isolation".

Your issue will involve significant structural modification. It will be neither simple nor inexpensive.


Edit: And as soon as I post I note that of course John has already addressed the issue with sage advice!

Listen to 'the man'!

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by SAC

You are looking for a simplistic solution to a much more complex issue.

And I can tell you already, that while the garage door is a weak point, it is NOT the only source of ingress! You will have other flanking paths and weak links n the structure. And sound transmission/isolation issues are ONLY as effective as the WEAKEST link. And like a boat, simply addressing the main leaks will not stop the boat from filling with water and sinking.

Search on "Sound transmission" and "Isolation".

Your issue will involve significant structural modification. It will be neither simple nor inexpensive.


Edit: And as soon as I post I note that of course John has already addressed the issue with sage advice!

Listen to 'the man'!

so what are you trying to say? I should or shouldn't bother doing the best I can with the other walls?

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

You are better off; 1. replacing the door with something that will work. or 2. find another place.

John

This is the only place I can use. I can't imaging he would let me replace the door. He's going to keep some tools and stuff in there.

but if the door was replaced, what is the biggest size I could get? Would you be able to easily wheel large things through it?

[SAC]

What are we saying?...you mean in addition to the amount of isolation you achieve will be limited to the amount of isolation provided by the weakest link in the structure?

And if the door is replaced you must treat and account for the isolation of the entire area defined by the door as well as any adjacent flanking paths!

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by SAC

What are we saying?...you mean in addition to the amount of isolation you achieve will be limited to the amount of isolation provided by the weakest link in the structure?

And if the door is replaced you must treat and account for the isolation of the entire area defined by the door as well as any adjacent flanking paths!

I have no idea what you mean. I cant tell if you're trying to make fun of me, or if English is your 2nd language, but your sentence structure is so absurd I have no clue what you're trying to say.

[SAC]

Originally Posted by blackmajik2021

This is the only place I can use. I can't imaging he would let me replace the door...

but if the door was replaced, what is the biggest size I could get?

Would you be able to easily wheel large things through it?

Yeah, I 'imaging' the problem is my use of language. Look up the meaning of the word "litote" and "sarcasm" and 're-stating the obvious'..

The total amount of isolation you achieve will be limited by the least amount of isolation provided at any point in the total system.

The largest door you can get that would be a direct replacement for the existing door would be one the same size as the existing door.

Sit down and read s l o w l y.


And after all is said and done, the original concern about sound transmission fails to be addressed. Neither internal nor external levels have ever been established, and after the doorways is sealed, the original issue of sound transmission which prompted the concern is deemed solved by virtue that the door is replaced with a drywall partition. The irony is that the entire conundrum was misrepresented as a sound transmission issue rather than a "how do I construct a partition" query. Either that or its an "I now know how to build a partition, but what do I do about the remaining level of sound transmission?" We'll just have to wait for a better formed 'question'...

[TimOBrienFlorida]

Simply, a shed like that is going to be nearly transparent to sound.

Soundproofing requires mass and a LOT of it (for example, concrete blocks)

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by SAC

The total amount of isolation you achieve will be limited by the least amount of isolation provided at any point in the total system.

The largest door you can get that would be a direct replacement for the existing door would be one the same size as the existing door.

Sit down and read s l o w l y.

what I was asking was more along the lines of "in terms of air-locked industrial doors, whats the biggest thing you can get? can you get double doors?"

[SAC]

Originally Posted by TimOBrienFlorida

Simply, a shed like that is going to be nearly transparent to sound.

Soundproofing requires mass and a LOT of it (for example, concrete blocks)

Those other folks are simply too confusing...


So, tell me... How do I solve the problem if I am only willing to possibly reinforce or replace the door?

And please state your precise step by step solution clearly, complete with manufacturer part numbers, quantities, local supply sources (complete with a MapQuest or Google directional map), and illustrated diagrams.

Oh, and please provide a schedule of the times you can be available to effect the solution. I will get back to you and let you know which times are convenient.

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by TimOBrienFlorida

Simply, a shed like that is going to be nearly transparent to sound.

Soundproofing requires mass and a LOT of it (for example, concrete blocks)

cant be worse than my apartment. I can hear every step the people who live above me take (wood floors), and the walls have no insulation between them. I can hear my next door neighbor snore at night.

[SAC]

Originally Posted by blackmajik2021

cant be worse than my apartment. I can hear every step the people who live above me take (wood floors), and the walls have no insulation between them. I can hear my next door neighbor snore at night.

Have you considered leveraging your situation and recording this and supplying it as a plug-in - or as a cell phone ringer?

Hey, you could potentially turn lemons into lemonade and make more money than producing music does!

[fitZ]

Well, I don't know your whole situation, but here is what "I" would do.

1.First, install a seperate 36" solid core man door around to the rear side, leaving room for a superchunk in the rear corner.

2. Completely sheith the interior with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, caulked and sealed. Typical staggered joints.

3. Frame up a "pocket", so the garage door can still open. Use the space between wall and door for storage/bench...whatever. This will be built from sidewall to sidewall. The ceiling unit framing and return, should be built in modules that are sheithed with drywall on the exterior side prior to lifting into place. This insures a 2 leaf system throught the complete assembly. I didn't show the drywall on the pocket side of the framing for clarity.

4. Drywall the interior side of the framing ...again, 2 layers.

5. Caulk/tape/texture/Paint.

VOILA! Completely sealed garage.














fitZ

[ritelec]

"I have no idea what you mean. I cant tell if you're trying to make fun of me, or if English is your 2nd language, but your sentence structure is so absurd I have no clue what you're trying to say."

That's very funny!

Nice drawing fitZ.

May I ask, what are your intensions with this garage? Will it be for mixing at +/- 85dB, with an occasional recorded instrument or vocal, or are you intending to record full blown bands at monster volumes?

If mixing and recording "in the box", isolate as you need.
And maybe build a temp wall at the garage door area, mainly intended to keep in heat and not necessarily to try attacking sound from getting in and out.

Rich

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by ritelec

"I have no idea what you mean. I cant tell if you're trying to make fun of me, or if English is your 2nd language, but your sentence structure is so absurd I have no clue what you're trying to say."

That's very funny!

Nice drawing fitZ.

May I ask, what are your intensions with this garage? Will it be for mixing at +/- 85dB, with an occasional recorded instrument or vocal, or are you intending to record full blown bands at monster volumes?

If mixing and recording "in the box", isolate as you need.
And maybe build a temp wall at the garage door area, mainly intended to keep in heat and not necessarily to try attacking sound from getting in and out.

Rich

I'm going to be using the room for everything, mixing, recording, and rehearsal. No death metal though, so I wouldn't really say "monster" volumes.

P.S. @fitZ

thanks for making those drawings! It seems like you put quite a bit of time into that response, and its a great idea. I'll throw it by the owner of the garage.

:D

EDIT:

I'm also trying to figure out a good ratio for the room if I were to build a wall, but I'm a little confused because of the vaulted ceiling. The room measures 13 ft. 6 in. wide by 20ft. 10in. deep with 8 foot ceilings on the sides and approx a 12-13 foot peak.

I'm trying to figure this out so I would know how far I should build that "storage" section. Initially I thought 3 feet would be a good idea, but that would make the room almost 10x20 which I know is a bad ratio.

[blackmajik2021]

One more quick question for you guys who answered my post:

how do I explain to my mom, in plain English, why making a soundproof air-tight garage door is impossible?

Shes very optimistic, and has been saying things like "nothing is impossible" and "thats how inventions are made", which is true to a certain extent...

I'd like to agree with her, but I dont feel like I'm really in the position to invent the world first soundproof-air-locked garage door

[fitZ]

but I dont feel like I'm really in the position to invent the world first soundproof-air-locked garage door

That's why I suggested the wall. Easy. Cheap. Forget about making the door "soundproof". Ain't gonna happen.

P.S. @fitZ

thanks for making those drawings! It seems like you put quite a bit of time into that response, and its a great idea. I'll throw it by the owner of the garage.

Your welcome. And btw, it didn't take hardly a half hour. Between the Sketchup warehouse and my component collection, I can manipulate things pretty fast. At least for this type work. Besides, quicky illustrations are fun too. Nothin fancy..just the facts mam!

Ps...if you plan it right, this could be removed at some future date very easy. Think Screws...access panels etc.

how do I explain to my mom, in plain English, why making a soundproof air-tight garage door is impossible?

First off, there is no such thing as "sound proof". And yes, it probably is impossible, at least on a budget, to make this room have a Transmission Loss of 110 db. However, the term here is REASONABLY "soundproof". People do it all the time in small garages. It just depends on what you are allowed to do, your budget, your skills, and how bad you want it.

And about the roof thing. Can you post some pictures of the inside. Show what is existing. We'll go from there.

[avare]

fitZ:

Great drawings!

Andre

[Jesse Miller]

OUTSTANDING REPLY fitZ....EXACTLY what this young man was looking for. We need more of this type reply here at GS. Not everyone needs a full scientific disertation. People have been making good music in garages for a long time and your solution was an excellant option. Although there is certainly more involved to "sound proof" and treat the room as others have pointed out. Your drawing and "help" give me hope for future slutz members reaching out. KUDOS MAN.thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

Originally Posted by fitZ

That's why I suggested the wall. Easy. Cheap. Forget about making the door "soundproof". Ain't gonna happen.

Your welcome. And btw, it didn't take hardly a half hour. Between the Sketchup warehouse and my component collection, I can manipulate things pretty fast. At least for this type work. Besides, quicky illustrations are fun too. Nothin fancy..just the facts mam!

Ps...if you plan it right, this could be removed at some future date very easy. Think Screws...access panels etc.

[fitZ]

OUTSTANDING REPLY Fitz...

Thank you so much. That made my day. Most of my replys have been met with less than friendly responses. I'm certainly no expert on this stuff..but I'm filled with COMMON SENSE..and most of this IS common sense..once you understand the stuff that isn't

fitZ:

Great drawings!

Andre

OMG!!! twice in one day? Will wonders ever cease. Hmmm, I musta did something the gods liked.

[perplex]

wtf fitZ, im sure people would pay for that kind of help. ur cool!

[Youn]

Maybe this is out of the question, but this guy build his studio in his garage, floated room-within-a-room style.

Acoustics Forum • View topic - Paul's STUDIO BUILD DIARY


I think this is the post where he tests the bass transmission/isolation:
Acoustics Forum • View topic - Paul's STUDIO BUILD DIARY

[fitZ]

wtf fitZ, im sure people would pay for that kind of help. ur cool!

You're too kind. Actually, to keep my disclaimer intact, I do this for free for anybody. If I started charging people...I'd have to become an expert. this way...I can simply stand behind my disclaimer...ie..."I ain't no expert so if you see something that is wrong...be my guest and draw it yourself."

Thing is..I enjoy drawing in Sketchup. So I do what I know. If it's wrong..then I'll fix it. But what can anyone expect for free? Wes Lachot?

[ritelec]

Nice Youn.

"Ps...if you plan it right, this could be removed at some future date very easy. Think "MASONARY" Screws...access panels etc."

[blackmajik2021]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Nice Youn.

"Ps...if you plan it right, this could be removed at some future date very easy. Think "MASONARY" Screws...access panels etc."

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "this". The new wall? the old garage door? could you explain a little bit?

thanks.

[ritelec]

PS.

When all is said and done, don't forget about an alarm or BIG dog!!

woof woof

[ritelec]

Sorry black.... english is my second language...NOT!!!

Just making a funny bud. Youn's link showed a brick wall being constructed. Get??? screws so you can take it apart...Get it???

[blackmajik2021]

ah...yeah

I wasn't planning on doing anything with bricks.

[fitZ]

I might add something here. As was mentioned earlier, there is much more to this than my over simplicated suggestion. Door seals, ventilation, ducts, HVAC, caulking...all have to be addressed for a whole solution. The point is..you want to have an envelope that is massive, sealed against air/structure delivered sound propagation, and yet allows you to breath and be comfortable. Not an easy proposition considering all the work it takes to accomplish the sealed mass...only to penetrate it in order to breath.

I would suggest you buy Rod Gervais book...Home Recording Studio..How to build it like the Pro's. He goes into detail on the solutions to this conundrum.

[tarnationsauce]

Originally Posted by fitZ

I am facing a very similar situation, Originally I was going to just seal off the door and remove all the hardware. This idea is very intriguing.

One issue you may face is you have to be sure you can even lift the garage door without the garage door opener. I just tried mine and it's pretty heavy but not too bad. I would need to get a key for the handle or probably have to replace the handle.