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My diffusor design - is it ok?
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#151
8th May 2012
Old 8th May 2012
  #151
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http://www.aes.org/technical/heyser/...er-Beranek.pdf

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Second, the initial-time-delay gap ITDG is important, the time at which the first
reflection is heard after the direct sound. For Boston, the ITDG is about 15 ms, and this
is about optimum. If greater than about 35 ms, the hall will sound like an arena, with a
lack of intimacy. Thus hall size is audible.
#152
8th May 2012
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One of the main reason for early reflections in concert halls (15 ms is early reflections in large rooms) is to get better intelligibility.

If the reflections are shorter than 15ms they would have to come from almost the same angle as the instrument due to the width of the room , lateral reflections from both left/right under appr 10ms(?) is practicully impossible in large rooms, at least within "critical distance", due to the large width of the room.

http://www.syntheticwave.de/ITDG.htm
#153
8th May 2012
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Brilliant

Thank you for that wonderful pdf, and correction hsal.
DD
#154
8th May 2012
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Quote:
Perhaps they were focussed on the back of the stage/choir balcony
I think it is meassured some distance from the stage, but not towards the back of the hall, where the direct and reverberant sound energies become equal.

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#155
9th May 2012
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Hmmm

The 15mS kinda brings Moulton to my mind again. I must take another look at his writing, which I have previously found a bit off putting. Maybe it's just a writing style. The number rings other bells. In mixing we frequently do things like add delays of this magnitude, often slightly different L and R.
To widen sounds, like keys, or a bank of BV's. And to make them sound richer.
One wonders if Moulton is doing something similar to the output of speakers in a room, but organically. One wonders if diffused side additions would remove the possible downside of this enhancement, i.e. the combing.

DD
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#156
9th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Yes that is intuitively obvious and has been well accepted for years.
The NE and FTB do the anechoic bit in one direction pretty well.
Personally, when I want the best clarity, I use headphones.

Why then deliberately add a cluster of reflections from behind and delayed?
Surely that is an unwelcome intrusion however pleasant?
How can the inclusion of this randomised and delayed EXTRA information be accurate to what is on tape?

Seems to me the 70's to 90's simply enjoyed having their asses tickled.

Olive and Marten 2007 concurred with my view that us mix engineers are somewhat immune to CR acoustics. We hear through.

However, research within this Millennium seems to want to add nuance to the intuitive assumption that 'huge headphones' is the most accurate.
Actual studio builds are including these nuances. Early diffusion is being added. I intend trying it with an open mind.
Experience backed by research say we should have no problem hearing through it.
Active Listening is very different to Passive Hearing.
Particularly when the former is a Pro, and the latter is a Joe.

Old tests written with dodgy ink, using single echoes, speech intelligibility, concert halls, classical music, etc. seem out of place and out of time.

With a deadish room, 4 or 5 speakers and a convolution reverb it is very easy to simulate any of these scenarios.

DD
A return is important due to how our pinna perceive sound. A rear wall that is a dampened, like in NER, will give us localization errors. Can you get used to it and mix pass it? Probably or maybe. But why start with something that's not only unatural but has errors as well.

A strong termination is not only about lieveliness and a pleasant feeling. It locks the listener to the direct signal and in my experience seems to give the sound more clarity and intelligibility. And it removes the effect of later high gain reflections. If you have an excellent decaying diffuse field, it becomes less important and you can get away with it. Getting away it it's not the same however as what is best. Which also refers to what some are saying that "we can hear through it anyway". The goal is remove all the muddiness and bring the best clarity that we can. Not just something that can work ok. A car can have 3 or 4 stars in a crashing test and it will pass. But having five stars is better. LEDE/RFZ has been built upon psycoacoustics studies which the return and loacalization is an example of. Others don't in several areas and though they may work it's not optimal.

Beranek studies as well other similar studies about concert halls tell us that the best concert halls have reflections arriving from sidewalls before ceiling. So they are quite narrow. This is also the reason why diffusion in LEDE/RFZ should come laterally. Our ears are placed on the side. The ETC of a LEDE/RFZ looks very similar to concert halls.
Jens questioned rightly early in this thread about using 2D diffusors. In a critical listening environment with one plateau and primarily one listener, it doesn't make much sense to use 2D diffusors who send the diffuse energy also to the floor and ceiling. 1D diffusors are a better choice.
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#157
9th May 2012
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Civil

Decent reply thank you. I have seen the pinnae alluded to. However if you are referring to the mention in the Davis book, it makes no case.
Pinnae block HF sound arriving from the rear, so that localisation enhancement notion was simply not credible to me when I came across it.
Do you have a link to some research on a specific pinnae effect which actually convincingly leads to the conclusions you have drawn?
Indeed I seem to remember Haas Kickers (specular) initially welcomed and later abandoned due to image smear.

Having earlier stated LEDE is more accurate you now accuse NE of localisation errors. Without evidence in either case, this doesn't rise to the level of debate.
One of the most lauded aspects of NE is the stability and wide coverage of the stereo image. The opposite is obviously true of LEDE in the back half of the room.
So sorry, not convinced, and could we please lose the overtly challenging stance? One thing does not need to be wrong for another to be right.

If the removal of mud and reflections is a high goal, surely NE and FTB trump.

Pending seeing a possible Pinnae or other document I remain convinced that injected information is extra and per se diminishes faithfulness to what is on the actual recording.

Is LEDE meant to supply diffusion from the rear? Or laterally? Or like a concert hall, more strongly from the front? I find the various views on this confusing.

My concert hall input was related to Moulton. Diffuse lateral front energy, 15mS delayed.

Don Davis, 'the aim of LEDE is to provide a shorter gap in the CR in order to accurately hear the gap in the recording room.' Seems a lot of other aims just kinda got added on.
And they certainly don't add up.

Plenty of Psychoacoustic and Acoustic Research has happened since the late 1900's. It seems wise to take note of it in an open minded manner.
Many do and have changed practice.
To my knowledge there are no LEDE being built, nor have there been any for some considerable time.
It was as Jay said, a major stepping stone, some aspects remain very useful, e.g. RFZ techniques.
But it would be unrealistic to think there has been no advance by simply chosing to ignore Toole, Olive, Newell, Jounjean, etc.

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 9th May 2012 at 02:14 PM.. Reason: Advanced
#158
9th May 2012
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Quote:
A return is important due to how our pinna perceive sound. A rear wall that is a dampened, like in NER, will give us localization errors. Can you get used to it and mix pass it? Probably or maybe. But why start with something that's not only unatural but has errors as well.
There are room designs with partly/fully dampened backwalls that have lateral reflections.

And in small rooms, LEDE design can sound unfocused imo(for other reasons).





Quote:
Beranek studies as well other similar studies about concert halls tell us that the best concert halls have reflections arriving from sidewalls before ceiling. So they are quite narrow. This is also the reason why diffusion in LEDE/RFZ should come laterally
The shortest path from speaker-diffusers-listener is not via the sidewalls.

Hence the earlieast reflections (termination) will have the least benificial angle of incidence, and almost compleletely oppisite angle of incidence from concert halls .



The rest of the "lateral" reflections bouncing of the sidwealls are indeed coming at an posterior oblique angle aswell in LEDE (the angle of incidence for the termination is dictated by the width of the room), still different angle of incidence than concert halls.

IMO one cannot transfer psychoacoustic prinsiples directly from concert halls to control rooms, especially not when the angle of incidence is different.


The itd gap in concert is related to decay time, you have mid/late reflections that do not exist in listening rooms.

Quote:
A strong termination is not only about lieveliness and a pleasant feeling. It locks the listener to the direct signal
Yes important....in concert hall acoustics, with late reflections.
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9th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwo View Post
And it removes the effect of later high gain reflections.
+1 ... removing the directional cues from the later-arriving reflections within the room.

do you know why there is confusion here from other users regarding the termination arriving laterally with respect to LEDE response (RFZ inner shell)?
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#160
9th May 2012
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Correctly treated room does not have disturbing late reflections.

decay time 0.3-0.4 sec....late reflections?
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9th May 2012
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Understood on the fact that indeed... there are ISD gaps in performance spaces. Likely not much of one to speak of from a guitarist at the local cafe... that was more so my point. But if that cafe did employ some treatment, the cafe would sound better, and likely have more articulation to the performance. Whether knowingly or not, this cafe would then have more of an ISD gap.

Seems to me this 15msec. concert hall talk more reinforces lede than it does Moulton. Isn't 15msec a bit long for Moulton? Is it not closer to the shorter end of a LEDE ISD gap? Sure, it's coming from the front. But that's a factor of topology moreso than anything is it not? How else can you provide a consistent listening experience for such a large audience?

Referencing what I said about McTwins. Only my last post here was directed at him. Earlier I made reference to 'wacky audiophile designs'. He's not the only one who has one, and I'm not the only one with trepidation. And, I'll submit, perhaps these designs aren't so wacky. Certainly I'm not the one to be the judge here. I can only refer to the opinions of those I trust. Haas found localization cues as early as 1msec. That's early. Haas also carried out his experiments on a rooftop to some extent, and was focused solely on speech. What does the trigger do to a tom hit? Or a bass line? Dunno. Having given some amount (quite a bit) of thought to my "proof" if it were on the performance of the LEDE/RFZ design, it's more dissemination than anything. I don't think there are any papers on my computer that will in fact "prove" anything to anyone. Rather discussions with people I have grown to trust here. Perhaps that's a fatal flaw.



Back to McTwins. I submitted that I believe McTwins room would likely be a great place to mix a record. I also don't much mind facing the corner of my live room. So..............

I have a college friend who executed a "lede" design. In terms of what one would want to see in such a room, it's near laughable. It's logistically impossible for his interpretation to display a successful ISD termination. His "diffusion"...isn't. His front half is coated 100% in 2" fiber. You know what? It sound great. Superb clarity. Surgical. You hear stories of 'miles of these rooms ripped out'. Sure. Likewise there are miles of them that are not lede but still working. And also miles of them that are hitting lede criteria without even knowing they are doing it. So what?

I "soundproofed" my basement before ever stepping a foot in here based on what I believed at the time to be sound principles. Knowing what I know now, I'd have changed nearly everything I did down there. But you know what? It worked. 6 years of twice weekly practices going until all hours of the night and (knock on wood) not a single complaint. At 5' from the house a full rock band is a whisper.

I think it's our personal experiences with situations like mine with my room and others who have executed a bevy of successful rooms without following a template... a model. Dan and others here have done great work without adhering to lede. I can't say I blame them for having reservations on the subject. A lot of rooms 'work' that aren't specifically anything.

What may be interesting, to go back and look at, Dan for example... if he were to go back and execute ETC responses of his rooms, and without having seen the results of those ETCs "grade" the outcome of the rooms he has treated based on listening...working...translation. Would the ones with higher passing grades trend towards closer to the lede criteria? The world may never know.

I'm going to carry a far more open mind in regards to newer principles. I'm hoping some can attempt to show more respect for the older ones.
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#162
9th May 2012
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in RFZ (LEDE response), the preponderance of the later arriving energy (termination) arrives laterally via rear sidewalls - just like the concert halls per Schroeder/Beranek. NOT via rear wall.
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9th May 2012
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Quote:
Sure, it's coming from the front. But that's a factor of topology moreso than anything is it not? How else can you provide a consistent listening experience for such a large audience?


The sensitivity for reflections is biggest for incidence angle of around 45 degrees (anterior/lateral), it is well known that there is a head shadowing effect for sounding coming at an angle from behind, and also diffracton around the pinnae.

There is also a figure in Floyd Tools "sound reproduction" figure 7.6,with more detail than the one in master handbook of acoustics.

It is quite clear that there is an attenuation of frequensies having an azimuth of appr 90 degrees or more.

the difference in this figure seems not as dramatical as in the figure in MHAO (up to 7-8 db attenuation in Tools example).




Quote:
I'm hoping some can attempt to show more respect for the older ones.
Good point
#164
9th May 2012
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Quote:
in RFZ (LEDE response), the preponderance of the later arriving energy (termination) arrives laterally via rear sidewalls - just like the concert halls per Schroeder/Beranek. NOT via rear wall.
We were discussing itdg, if the incidence angle had been the same in boston(75 feet wide) the itdg would be closer to 50-100ms.

Not saying the different incidence angle is detriemental, just that there is a difference.

http://www.syntheticwave.de/ITDG.htm
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9th May 2012
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Quote:
do you know why there is confusion here from other users regarding the termination arriving laterally with respect to LEDE response (RFZ inner shell)?
The initial critique was
regarding small bedroom (typically 18-25m2) LEDE rooms without splayed walls.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post


in RFZ (LEDE response), the preponderance of the later arriving energy (termination) arrives laterally via rear sidewalls - just like the concert halls per Schroeder/Beranek. NOT via rear wall.
I took for granted that people knew this and understood that we're talking about rear sidewalls when laterally is mentioned.

And this can also be introduced in a room that's not build from scratch. I have myself set up a a reflective gobo on the backwall to redirect the sound to the rear sidewalls were I have diffusors.
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Quote:
I took for granted that people knew this and understood that we're talking about rear sidewalls when laterally is mentioned.
Read threw my posts, I describe a typically 4 wall LEDE, the rear sidewalls play a role with this concept aswell, but mainly for weaker reflections after the strong termination .The reflections with azimut closer to 90 degrees have much less energy because they are higher order reflections.

and even if RFZ is discussed:

You do agree that the incidence azimut is much more than 90 degrees?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsal View Post
You do agree that the incidence azimut is much more than 90 degrees?
You guys lost me:
Is that 90 degrees from the rear? On the horizontal plane?
What's the significance of this?

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90 degrees is directly from the side on the horizontal plane, 0 degrees directly in front 180 degrees dircetly from behind.

It is relevant because the spectrum of the sound will change with incidence angle due to sound being bend around the head/ear,the change of the spectrum happens mostly for sound coming at an angle of 90 degrees and more. (bigger effect at 120 degrees)

It is also important for interaural timing difference, reflections lost in the recording process (angle of incidence is lost) being reinstaed in the control room.


The positive aspect of diffusors at backwall is that the frequensy response from the speaker is best in this direction.

good off axis response is very important if one wants to have diffusors placed at sidewalls, aswell as there not being lobing problems with the diffusors, and that they diffuse over a wide spectrum.

I agree the discussion can get very theoretical, I`m not shure there is any point continuing.

Quote:
What may be interesting, to go back and look at, Dan for example... if he were to go back and execute ETC responses of his rooms, and without having seen the results of those ETCs "grade" the outcome of the rooms he has treated based on listening...working...translation.
yes experience is very important, Dan gives excellent advice for NER rooms on this forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsal View Post
The positive aspect of diffusors at backwall is that the frequensy response from the speaker is best in this direction.

good off axis response is very important if one wants to have diffusors placed at sidewalls, aswell as there not being lobing problems with the diffusors, and that they diffuse over a wide spectrum.
No. The speakers will be pointing to the rear sidewalls if they are properly set up in most rooms. So that's where the on-axis path will be.

Something that should also be mentioned is that Don Davis had a long list of strict "requirements" for the speakers. These were not the B&Ws you purchased from the store.
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Originally Posted by bwo View Post
No. The speakers will be pointing to the rear sidewalls if they are properly set up in most rooms. So that's where the on-axis path will be.

Something that should also be mentioned is that Don Davis had a long list of strict "requirements" for the speakers. These were not the B&Ws you purchased from the store.
Why do they use B&W speakers in Abbey Road studio.

What kind of speakers did Don Davis use?
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No. The speakers will be pointing to the rear sidewalls if they are properly set up in most rooms. So that's where the on-axis path will be
This was excactly my point, if the diffusors are placed on the backwall (typicully budget LEDE) OR rear sidewalls (RFZ), the incidence is more "on axis" than with diffusors placed at sidewalls (front sidewalls/directly beside)

interestingly the effect of having speakers with bad off axis response and diffusors on the front sidewall/directly beside has similarities with the psychoacoustic effect of sound coming from an incidence angle more than 90 degrees: higher frequensies is attenuated.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Why do they use B&W speakers in Abbey Road studio.

What kind of speakers did Don Davis use?
Why Abbey Road use B&W speakers? Is that suppose to be a proof of their performance rather then how they actually measure? You need to ask them. I'm not sure if they are using them much for mixing at all, but more to test the end product (since many have B&W speakers). And the roomer says it's mainly a commercial thing and that they didn't pay for them. But I don't know if that's true or not.
If you take a look at measurements of B&W 800 speakers in Stereophile you will see they don't measure particurlary well off-axis. A well engineered horn or waveguide speaker will blow them away.

I don't know what brand that was used. Probably custom made speakers looking at what Don Davies wrote. They couldn't be bipolars and they were mostly mounted inside the wall. They had few crossovers, two-ways were common. They should had the ability to produce sound pressure levels of at least 130dB SPL at 10 feet. Harmonic distortion was suppose to be below 2% at all frequencies above 50 Hz. Amplitude, phase and polar responses had to be indentical for both speakers and full signal alignment. There were other "requirements" too; for instance a specific directivity factor and time-domain behaviour for each driver.

It was important to avoid misalignments. That would cause image shifts due to how the pinnae works. Maybe that's what hsal is referring too, but to be honest I'm not sure what he means. I doubt there was anything they didn't think about, but that doesn't mean the concept is flawless. It's impossible to remove the coloration of the room completely. Like hsal is mentioning in a concert hall the lateral contribution is coming from the front. In a LEDE/RFZ it's coming from the rear, but you don't have any other option if you're going to hear the recorded signal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwo View Post
Why Abbey Road use B&W speakers? Is that suppose to be a proof of their performance rather then how they actually measure? You need to ask them. I'm not sure if they are using them much for mixing at all, but more to test the end product (since many have B&W speakers). And the roomer says it's mainly a commercial thing and that they didn't pay for them. But I don't know if that's true or not.
If you take a look at measurements of B&W 800 speakers in Stereophile you will see they don't measure particurlary well off-axis. A well engineered horn or waveguide speaker will blow them away.

I don't know what brand that was used. Probably custom made speakers looking at what Don Davies wrote. They couldn't be bipolars and they were mostly mounted inside the wall. They had few crossovers, two-ways were common. They should had the ability to produce sound pressure levels of at least 130dB SPL at 10 feet. Harmonic distortion was suppose to be below 2% at all frequencies above 50 Hz. Amplitude, phase and polar responses had to be indentical for both speakers and full signal alignment. There were other "requirements" too; for instance a specific directivity factor and time-domain behaviour for each driver.

It was important to avoid misalignments. That would cause image shifts due to how the pinnae works. Maybe that's what hsal is referring too, but to be honest I'm not sure what he means. I doubt there was anything they didn't think about, but that doesn't mean the concept is flawless. It's impossible to remove the coloration of the room completely. Like hsal is mentioning in a concert hall the lateral contribution is coming from the front. In a LEDE/RFZ it's coming from the rear, but you don't have any other option if you're going to hear the recorded signal.
There is a option called the Spaceioness-field concept like the one I have in my room. In there I hear the recorded signal perfectlly. If in a church, dead room, live room or live event I hear the difference.
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
In there I hear the recorded signal perfectlly.
How do you know? Were you there when it was recorded? Simply being able to discern what kind of environment doesnt mean much.
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How do you know? Were you there when it was recorded? Simply being able to discern what kind of environment doesnt mean much.
+1. And one needs to compare to something else as well to say how good it really works.
Those of you who have attenuated early reflections. Replace your reflectors/absorbers at these places with diffusors. And see what happens with areas like clarity, intelligibility, localization and tonality. It's not difficult to hear.
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Originally Posted by bwo View Post
+1. And one needs to compare to something else as well to say how good it really works.
Those of you who have attenuated early reflections. Replace your reflectors/absorbers at these places with diffusors. And see what happens with areas like clarity, intelligibility, localization and tonality. It's not difficult to hear.
Sorry, I really don't rekognize anything in what you are stating. Even if I have diffusers on my sidewalls.
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Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
How do you know? Were you there when it was recorded? Simply being able to discern what kind of environment doesnt mean much.
Good question. I don't. Hey, I haven't been when the made the music to Gone with the wind or Frank Sinatra either. But Frankie boy shure do sound nice in my room
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
But Frankie boy shure do sound nice in my room
you really don't get it!
If it "sounds nice in your room" or not is not the point.

The question is if it sounds accurate as in "as close to the original as posible". You were not there when the recording was made so you definitelly can't say that "you hear the recorded signal perfectlly"! All you can say is that you like how it sounds in your room and nothing else.
A good control room should not "sound nice", it should "not sound at all", so that if the recording just made is not "sounding nice" to the engineer then the reording has to be redone until it really sounds nice - without the control room interfering.

You really are confusing the purpose of listening rooms (what you are doing) and control rooms = where the engineer has to make important decision that will affect the sound.
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First off, in regards to the definition of RFZ, from what I've read so far, it appears that it means something along the lines of "a zone free of FIRST EARLY reflections". Is that a fair description? And if so, is it achievable in a room with these dimensions?



Quote:
Those of you who have attenuated early reflections. Replace your reflectors/absorbers at these places with diffusors. And see what happens with areas like clarity, intelligibility, localization and tonality. It's not difficult to hear.

Well, I'm not sure yet if it's worth putting in all the time/$$ and effort, but if it IS possible to achieve a RFZ in a room the size I showed, and it requires diffusers to do it, by all means I would redirect my design proclivities from this...(which I've already partially built)



to something like..oh I don't know ..maybe something like this...





But you tell me. If I can achieve it....what would I have to do???

I actually have a lot of questions regarding my room. But I'll start my own thread for that. In the meantime, I'm still trying to understand how the RFZ concept works. Especially the Hass trigger thing, and how it relates to diffusers...vs...say...Jens Hass trigger panels(mirrors?) shown in his pics.
The reason is my room is very similar to the one he shows.

In that regards, I'm not sure what hasl was trying to illustrate with that "RFZ" CR plan, but n an attempt to get my unenlightened head around this stuff I need real clear explanations. In that regard, I've replicated it to better indicate what it is I don't understand. More on that when I have some time.

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