Building a floating room that is 6 ft. high

[meekstape]

so i've been practicing in my apartment for almost a year now. it's a loft live/work industrial type of building. i'm on the 3rd floor and the 2nd floor apartment just now started to complain about it. the bass is traveling through the floor.

so it got me thinking.. i have really high ceilings.. about 12.5 ft.. i was thinking that maybe somehow could build a floating floor (loft) about 6 ft in the air and insulate it with material and then enclose the space completely.. it would basically be another level, but insulated heavily. the room is pretty small.. it's about 12x10' and i'm on the top floor, so no one is above. does anyone think this would work? i'm not really expecting to completely soundprof it, but cut the extreme bass frequencies that are traveling to the apartment below. any insight would be awesome.

[Smithcok]

I just responded to a similar post in this forum - so I'll do a shortened version here:

This type of project would take significant planning and execution from a professional designer/acoustician. It would get very expensive, very quickly. I'd also be extremely surprised if any landlord would let that kind of construction go on under any circumstance.

So I think the short answer is: turn your bass amp down.

[meekstape]

well yeah, that was the first thing that i did. it's still just not enough. and my building is a loft space and most of the units build-to-suit your needs and they're ok with such modifications.

i guess really, i want to get an idea of what materials would be needed for such a project. i feel like it's such a small space (sq. footage wise) that i could maybe get away with making it a project.

[Halloween]

A cheaper option might be a headphone setup if you are with a full band or partial without a drummer.

Its an easy way get people into a small console with low volumes, add some makeup gain and shoot it to a multi-channel headphone amp.

I have to agree with the poster above about cost VS efficiency, but perhaps that is of no issue, and maybe you have already talked with the landlord about it.

If that is the case and you are settled in your decision, you might start by consulting with someone like Ethan or another acoustics expert, and take the plans to a contractor.

This is no easy task and build incorrectly it could be a total waste of money and more importantly a hazard.

[Smithcok]

Originally Posted by meekstape

i feel like it's such a small space (sq. footage wise) that i could maybe get away with making it a project.

I don't mean to be the party pooper, but without a construction-intensive, professionally-advised, expensive build (that any residential landlord in their right mind would stop), you will not get the desired results.

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by Halloween

A cheaper option might be a headphone setup if you are with a full band or partial without a drummer.

Its an easy way get people into a small console with low volumes, add some makeup gain and shoot it to a multi-channel headphone amp.

I have to agree with the poster above about cost VS efficiency, but perhaps that is of no issue, and maybe you have already talked with the landlord about it.

If that is the case and you are settled in your decision, you might start by consulting with someone like Ethan or another acoustics expert, and take the plans to a contractor.

This is no easy task and build incorrectly it could be a total waste of money and more importantly a hazard.

thanks. yeah i think that we're going to try the headphone route first. i have a headphone amp and run a presonus firepod for recording practice, so we can monitor through that. the only thing is guitar and drums will have to be played.

i still am very intrigued to maybe try this, but would like to have a plan and an idea of what to use to construct this. i may end up not doing it, but who knows i would like to explore it.

below is a picture that is not of my room, but very similar to what is built in the room already that the previous tenants had built. my idea was to enclose with whole room with a platform like so, reinforce it and insulate the both sides of the 'floor' with material and the walls surrounding the enclosed 2nd tier space. the 'bottom tier' would be open just like in the picture.. that would raise the playing area 6 ft. off the ground and hopefully buffer the bass. from what i get, everyone is basically saying it's a crapshoot. and the landlord thing is not really an issue. everyone in my building has built out they're own customizations.

[Smithcok]

The problem is - in order for it to actually work from an acoustics standpoint, you are going to need an isolated, sealed system with a good amount of mass (=expensive, intensive construction, and easy to screw up without good professional consulting and construction).

What you don't want to do is spent a few thousand on a nice loft that doesn't do much acoustically, leaving your neighbors still bothered by the bass.

[maxklein]

look at the thx "pm3" spec- My copy from several years ago recommends wood floating floor with decouplers- I had a carpenter do it in my apartment- not a live work loft thing, just an apartment with a 20x15x17 living/dining area. Made it out of 2x4's etc, and the neighbours never knew about the studio.

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by maxklein

look at the thx "pm3" spec- My copy from several years ago recommends wood floating floor with decouplers- I had a carpenter do it in my apartment- not a live work loft thing, just an apartment with a 20x15x17 living/dining area. Made it out of 2x4's etc, and the neighbours never knew about the studio.

interesting! where would i find those specs? google search really isn't yielding any results.

[SAC]

Folks are proposing a complete room within a room construction project with a finished height of less than 6 feet simply because they lack the emotional wherewithal to either turn down their bass amp or to simply invest in a set of headphones or - for ensemble play, an in the ear monitor outfit?

Jack Casady doesn't have that problem!

Well, I won't be topped by this! Just wait until you see my geothermal powered jacuzzi and sauna for chickens!

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by SAC

Folks are proposing a complete room within a room construction project with a finished height of less than 6 feet simply because they lack the wherewithal to either turn down their bass amp or to simply invest in a set of headphones or - for ensemble play, an in the ear monitor outfit?

Jack Casady doesn't have that problem!

Well, I won't be topped by this! Just wait until you see my geothermal powered jacuzzi and sauna for chickens!

i do have a headphone amp setup and i have turned down the bass amp, just interested in exploring my possibilities. before the complaints, i was already interested in building out more for a home recording setup and this may lend itself and kill both of those birds in one swoop.

[PaulP]

Even if you're prepared to spend thousands of dollars (and the building can handle the strain) you will end up dying asphyxiated in a room with lousy acoustics.

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by PaulP

Even if you're prepared to spend thousands of dollars (and the building can handle the strain) you will end up dying asphyxiated in a room with lousy acoustics.

Point taken. There is a port cut above the door for ventilation that could also be treated.

I understand this idea sounds crazy to some people, but living in NYC and not being able to afford a practice space or recording studio for that matter, I look to other options. That's why I live in a loft building. I want to utilize all of my cubic space and most of the people that live in the building are artists as well.

Anyhow, thanks to the ones that have lent real insight into this.

[johndykstra]

You shouldn't require 6' of rise to decouple from the floor. You certainly can't do it with a number of 2x4 bunk bed legs either.

This is a doable project, but not one that anyone in their right mind would detail for free. Anyone that does detail the process for free on a forum isn't doing it correctly, and not accounting for the safety of you or perhaps more importantly, your downstairs neighbors.

This is a project that will HAVE TO (not probably) cost you many thousands of dollars. For that type of investment, I would want a hired professional who is willing to guarantee results... in numbers, not subjective "good enough" wizardry opinions.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by meekstape

i'm not really expecting to completely soundprof it, but cut the extreme bass frequencies that are traveling to the apartment below. any insight would be awesome.

but those are the hardest frequencies to isolate. if you succeed with "extreme bass" then you are in essence "completely soundproofed".

[meekstape]

I understand. What in short, would you recommend?

How about this:
Would I be able to achieve some sort of results from just sealing the existing floor with perhaps sheetblock and aurelex foam for the walls?

Or.. Should I look into doing a much shorter (not 6') floating room, via the hockey puck method?

Really, all I'm looking to do is get the noise level to a 'tolerable' level for my neighbors. They're pretty cool people and would be cool with a muffled noise level.

[johndykstra]

I wouldn't begin to recommend anything.

Auralex will do nothing, I can confidently tell you that. Isolation is not something you can "kinda do" and expect to maintain any level of your existing room's surfaces. Even if you fix the heck out of the floor, sound will simply seep around the edges through the walls... and so on and so on....

Talking out my arse here...

Hockeypucks... you would need to build an entire room (floor, walls, ceiling, door, windows, decoupled hvac,) and it would need to be massive (2 layers of sheetrock, greenglue, resilliant channel). That's just walls and ceiling... I can't even comprehend what the floor structure must be comprised of. This will be heavy. You have no way of knowing if your structure could possibly support such a load. The "hockeypucks" need to be load calculated... including estimated live load.... to be able to effectively dampen the load. Now, how many? Where? At what interval? There's a structural resonance thing at play here, that I won't even pretend to understand. It's important to know, that it is a very real possibility that an uninformed "go" at this could very easily make the sound transmission WORSE!!!

You are looking at heavy math here. The kind of study that people have dedicated their lives to. Suggesting a few hundred bucks worth of insulation and fabric for some bass traps in harmless. You are talking the type of project that could literally bring your building down... killing people. For real.

If you are really interested in pursuing this, contact avare, rod, or jhbrandt. They could perhaps quote you on a design.

I beg of you, DO NOT attempt a project of this nature without some sort of signed contract, structural permits... regardless of what some faceless avatar on a forum mayl tell you "will work" you need to protect yourself in a legal manor here.

[johndykstra]

Scared yet? I hope so.

Originally Posted by johndykstra

If you are really interested in pursuing this, contact avare, rod, or jhbrandt. They could perhaps quote you on a design.

Now realistically, "tolerable" may very well be far less expensive. However, the math and expertise are the same. A LOT more would need to be known about your structure. And the above names still apply. You never know until you ask.

[Halloween]

Have you thought about a decoupled false floor? You could make it large enough for the Bass Cab and it would be movable. The problem is really simple. The bass is not only traveling through the floor, but also everything else that would connect you to your downstairs hater.

Walls, Pipes, Air Ducts, Framing, the whole 9 yards would need to be addressed for sufficient results.

So we know the drummer is more than likely single, what about someone else Pad?

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by Halloween

Have you thought about a decoupled false floor? You could make it large enough for the Bass Cab and it would be movable. The problem is really simple. The bass is not only traveling through the floor, but also everything else that would connect you to your downstairs hater.

Walls, Pipes, Air Ducts, Framing, the whole 9 yards would need to be addressed for sufficient results.

So we know the drummer is more than likely single, what about someone else Pad?

It has to be my place. And I'm the drummer hah..

There is also a steal beam that runs from my apartment to theirs, so I'm pretty sure that a lot of the sound is traveling through it..

And yeah, the decoupled false floor idea sounds like a great idea. I'm thinking a complete seal of the floor along with the walls and the false floor. Do you know of any plans for a decoupled false floor that I could get ahold of and adjust accordingly? Seriously thanks for all the thoughts.

[Smithcok]

Originally Posted by meekstape

And yeah, the decoupled false floor idea sounds like a great idea. I'm thinking a complete seal of the floor along with the walls and the false floor. Do you know of any plans for a decoupled false floor that I could get ahold of and adjust accordingly? Seriously thanks for all the thoughts.

The only way any solution is going to work is going to be as johndykstra describes. If you don't do it that way (i.e. the very expensive, professionally consulted, very heavy way), you will end up with a semi-expensive room that doesn't work.

Your problem is compounded by the fact that you are primarily going after low frequency isolation - aka the longest wavelengths. Among other things, you primarily need mass to stop these bad boys. And in a NYC apartment, I would assume that sort of addition would require the careful eye of a structural engineer.

I'm sure johndykstra agrees - I don't mean to be the total party pooper - in fact, I am trying to save you from spending thousands on a system that doesn't work in the least.

Floating floors in particular are an extremely fickle beast and take ridiculous amounts of care and planning. If you don't do it exactly right, you'll often end up making things worse.

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by Smithcok

The only way any solution is going to work is going to be as johndykstra describes. If you don't do it that way (i.e. the very expensive, professionally consulted, very heavy way), you will end up with a semi-expensive room that doesn't work.

Your problem is compounded by the fact that you are primarily going after low frequency isolation - aka the longest wavelengths. Among other things, you primarily need mass to stop these bad boys. And in a NYC apartment, I would assume that sort of addition would require the careful eye of a structural engineer.

I'm sure johndykstra agrees - I don't mean to be the total party pooper - in fact, I am trying to save you from spending thousands on a system that doesn't work in the least.

Floating floors in particular are an extremely fickle beast and take ridiculous amounts of care and planning. If you don't do it exactly right, you'll often end up making things worse.

well i know. i have definitely given up on the "6' floating floor", but i certainly need to come up some sort of solution that will help diffuse some of the frequencies. and yes, not waste thousands of $$$.

[johndykstra]

A detailed plan by a TRUE expert will probably not cost you as much as you think. Especially these days. Really man, give them a pm and just see what happens.

[johndykstra]

I saw JhBrandt was poking around on this thread last night. I'm sure he'd be familiar with your situation. Avare is easy to find here as well. Rod Gervais is here less often, but certainly no less worthy of an opinion.

Floating floors are crazy complex. And for real, not just talking about not making it any better. Literally making things WORSE if you botch it.

[0bazooka_joe0]

Not everyone was meant to have a studio in their home... I'm willing to put a lot of money on the fact that isolating bass frequencies from the rest of your NYC apartment isn't feasible. You say the room is 12'x10'... Your bass player hits a low E.. the fundamental wavelengths of an E are close to 28' in length. Do you know how thick and dense your floor, and walls have to be to absorb that? You need concrete, insulation, and space that you don't have. It isn't going to be possible. I think a more reasonable investment is a set of electric drums and on of those snazy Jam Hubs Welcome to JamHub.com - The Silent Rehearsal Studio

[meekstape]

Originally Posted by johndykstra

I saw JhBrandt was poking around on this thread last night. I'm sure he'd be familiar with your situation. Avare is easy to find here as well. Rod Gervais is here less often, but certainly no less worthy of an opinion.

Floating floors are crazy complex. And for real, not just talking about not making it any better. Literally making things WORSE if you botch it.

well. if anyone can recommend someone in the NYC area that would at least be willing to come take a look at the situation, that would be awesome.

[doulos30]

I have a solution that you havent thought of none of these will work for the reasons stated above but have you thought to make a soundproof box for your cab that you can mike? This is very doable and will allow you to mic the bass and still get the sound both in a recording and in some headphones