Mixing Bass: Project Studio (CR) Mixing & Monitoring

[Sqye]

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Hey guys.

So I finally got my Linkwitz Orion(+) speakers built and set up with (2) Emotiva XPA-5 surround amps - one per side.
The rear tweeters are mounted and I'm using the subs we built, as well. The tweeters are incredibly detailed!

The XPA-5s (200 watts per channel x 5 x 2 ) are feeding respectively: front/rear tweeters, midrange, dipole woofers and subs.
Currently, I have the tweeters sharing a channel and the dipole woofers sharing a channel, as well. Using both Orion & Thor X-overs.

I'm looking for ideas for accurate bass shaping and mixing in my room.
(PLEEEEEEEZE don't make me cover up all my glass )

I'm having trouble hearing and mixing bass accurately. And the 240s are useless for bass monitoring, as are most HPs, IME.
I'm still getting used to the Orions, and the 824s are just not sufficient - especially for this room, it seems.

Ideas on room treatment, monitors, amps, headphone amps, headphones, monitoring plug-ins with cross feed, etc.
would be helpful!...I'm open to everything. The room itself may be the issue for monitoring, but this remains to be seen.

I'm especially interested to hear from other composer/producers who work successfully in live/reflective rooms.

Since I do music beds for tv/film, it's really important for me to be able to shape the bass correctly in my mixes.

As you can see in the pix, my studio is very reflective - and asymmetrical. It is set up on the top floor
of a building with a Gambrel shaped roof. So the walls are sloped - twice - toward a point/crown in the ceiling.
...Plus I've got the stairwell cut out (in the rear of the right speakers). The room is 28' long x 23' wide. Oak floors.
With some glass windows, a picture window, a glass door (to the deck) + one glass mirror. (I know, I know ).

The Orions are supposed to be accurate speakers in any room. They're designed pretty much specifically for this purpose.
Hence, the 'dangling in space' design. I've set them up in an 8' triangle - to be used for QC/pseudo mastering.

My mix position is over 12 feet from the rear wall (wall behind me).

My 824s are set up in a 5' triangle for composing and mixing.

I'm using K240s to reference mixes quickly. I know these phones well, but I'd like to find a solution for more accurate bass work.


Attached are some photos of the room, and attached is a recent mix.


EDIT: Here is a rough drawing of the room dimensions!



As usual, thanks in advance for all ideas!


You guys ROCK!



I mostly compose and produce music beds for ads/tv/web/film, as well as pop singer/songwriter material.
...So, generally dense production and arrangements.


DAW: StudioCat i7+FIREFACE 800: Sonar Prod 8.5 w.Kontakt4+Symphobia+Omnisphere, etc.
...On a side note, I've been thrilled with the Buzz Audio Arc channel strip...on vocals, direct e. bass and ac. gtr.











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[DanDan]

Come up from that underground railroad. The sun is shining!

I suggest that you delete your posts here and replace them with your actual question.

Best Regards, DD

[Sqye]

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Done, Dan.

Sorry for the large images - I hope they're more helpful than annoying

Thanks, man!
thumbsup

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[DanDan]

Looks like a nice busy working space. Send the work to me and I'll get the bass right.

I am replying without much research so....

Dipole speakers, rear tweeters, that type of thing is done now and again.
e.g. Bose. Linkwitz is of course on another planet in terms of quality. However the aim of those designs is to 'fill' the room with indirect sound by bouncing it off the surfaces. In a nicely controlled room, this will be...nice. Your room looks like it may be too lively for them.
This approach is very much the opposite to normal studio mixing practice. CR's and their speakers attempt to reveal exactly what is on the recording, not to create some huge vague diffused impression of it.

From a quick glance it looks like you could move your mix position to the end with the two smaller windows. If those are Mackie 824, I would be inclined to place them very close to the wall. Try moving them there temporarily, play some music you know, and let us know what you think.

Glass is fine, unless facing more glass. It works as a bass trap.
Overall you may want to bring down the decay time in your room. This could be done by installing some panels above. You could come up with some nice looking hanging features if you are into a bit of DIY/art/lighting.

Do try the position shift. Would you be up for a bit of Acoustic Measurement? If so, go to Home Theater Shack, register, and download Room Eq Wizard. The manual is very good. If you want a quicker start you could try my Acoustic Measurement Primer Sticky at the top of the forum.

Best Regards, DD

[Sqye]

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Thanks very much Dan.

I'm wondering about your "...huge vague diffused impression..." words.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Are you saying you think the Orions are doing this in my room? Or in general? Not sure what you mean.

I don't think it's SL's intention to create some "...huge vague diffused impression..." of anything.

He's pretty darn specific, and again feels like the speakers should be able to be used in any environment. This is part of the point of the design.

Granted, he deos recommend some diffusion treatment, etc. But mostly for highs and mids - which are not the issue in my room.

Ethan Winer is saying the opposite of you - he says the speakers should be within 38% facing the front of the room. Linkwitz also says the same thing. Although, for the Mackies, I'm sure they're mostly designed to be used in smaller spaces, so you many be right.

Please bear in mind, I'm taking all of this input with a grain of salt, until I hear it for myself.

I have been doing this for a long time, and worked in many rooms.

Currently, the issue is very specifically related to bass monitoring and mixing in this room, mostly for densely produced music.

Thanks so much, man, for the mix position, reference and measurement ideas!

Joseph


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[amishsixstringe]

I'm sure Dan will be here soon, but I THINK he's referring to the bass boost that the Mackie's can gain by placing them closer to the wall surface. This is common with those speakers. The 38% (rule of thumb) is for listener position. The speakers can go anywhere inside of that 38%, and generally perform best at some place slightly off of that mark.

I wish you luck. The space looks really bad ass.

Neil

[spice house]

Very cool speakers! I'm going to research that design.. i used those tweeters in my build too

You have a very strangely shaped room! your acoustic nodes will be equally as strange. Your best bet is to get a pro in there who can take the time to understand the room....but....

If your into DIY, spend some time generating bass tones and moving a mic around to get to know where the nodes are and then build some absorbers tuned to your most problematic frequencies and use them to disrupt the nodes. Keep in mind things that affect bass response must be very thick!

Also there isn't much absorption in your room? If its all reflective you start to get buildups at specific frequencies, then you start to EQ for those frequencies, then you take your mixes to another room and your very surprised at the strange sound. I imagine most of your problem lies in the room talking!

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

I'm sure Dan will be here soon, but I THINK he's referring to the bass boost that the Mackie's can gain by placing them closer to the wall surface. This is common with those speakers. The 38% (rule of thumb) is for listener position. The speakers can go anywhere inside of that 38%, and generally perform best at some place slightly off of that mark.

I wish you luck. The space looks really bad ass.

Neil

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Thanks, Neil - very cool of you!

Cheers, man!

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[Sqye]

Originally Posted by spice house

Very cool speakers! I'm going to research that design.. i used those tweeters in my build too

You have a very strangely shaped room! your acoustic nodes will be equally as strange. Your best bet is to get a pro in there who can take the time to understand the room....but....

If your into DIY, spend some time generating bass tones and moving a mic around to get to know where the nodes are and then build some absorbers tuned to your most problematic frequencies and use them to disrupt the nodes. Keep in mind things that affect bass response must be very thick!

Also there isn't much absorption in your room? If its all reflective you start to get buildups at specific frequencies, then you start to EQ for those frequencies, then you take your mixes to another room and your very surprised at the strange sound. I imagine most of your problem lies in the room talking!

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Yes, indeed, SH - the issues are primarily in the bass and low mids though - which, of course, in energetic mixes, makes it more difficult to gauge dynamics (in songform, etc.) as well.

Thanks, man!
thumbsup

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[DanDan]

You are welcome. I could be wrong about Linkwitz but I doubt it. He has rear drivers bouncing sound off the surrounding boundaries.
I have seen speakers from a factory a few miles from here. Long gone. The speakers had exactly that shape. The HF appeared to be some sort of flat panel. The factory is long gone, but I wonder did Mr Linkwitz avail of our incentives to locate a factory in Carrigaline County Cork Ireland some decades ago?

This may be great for listening pleasure but for mixing?
Remember you did ask because you are having trouble with mixes!
From appearance I would say your room looks lively, too much mids and highs flying around. REW measurements will show that.

It may be possible to get the room right for the Linkwitz. Why don't you ask him to take a look a the situation. I suspect the room is too lively for those speakers, but why not hear from the man himself.

I will point out that Gethiain do a cardiod LF studio monitor. Similarly most PA speaker manufacturers have moved to directional LF.

A grain or two of salt may be OK, but don't overdo it.

The 38% is a suggested listening position, not the speakers.
You will get conflicting recommendations about where the speakers should go. SBIR and such. Genelec have guides on their site, again stating both points of view. They don't like to see speakers more than a metre or so from a wall though. I think you will find that Ethan actually has 824's and you may well find that he recommends placing them very close to the wall.
Such a position gives a useful LF extension and boost to these 'tight' Mackies. Once you get over the first hump with REW, it is rich, you will have great fund proving or disproving any or all of the above.
Measurement can be a great 'hearing aid'. :-)

DD

[SAC]

Dipoles in an untreated room intended for critical listening?

Let's just say bass isn't, or shouldn't be, your only concern.

You will need substantial treatment to address the back wave propagation of this type of speaker n order to have it not adversely affect intelligibility and destructive superposition.

And as far as Q in general, and citing in particular Bose and their direct reflecting "Q is unimportant philosophy" and as far as that 'went', I will simply refer one to the Intelligibility Workshop conducted in Sept., 1986 and the fact that method Bose insisted upon using for computing the RT60 completely eliminated early decay rate EDT by beginning at 100ms AFTER the direct sound arrival!!!!

And then a particular Bose principal objected to measurements being published! Which subsequently resulted in an event that has assumed a prominent spot in urban legend. I wonder why!

The fact is, if you take 95ms and add it to the direct sound, ALL speakers measure the same!

High Q loudspeakers dramatically affect EDT.

Bose 802 , if it requires identification, is on the left.

[Jens Eklund]

Genelec Oy - Wall behind the Loudspeaker Cancellation

[Sqye]

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Thank you Dan, SAC and Jens - for the help and suggestions here.

This is great! I'll be reviewing your data and links more carefully over the next few days.

Cheers, guys!
thumbsup

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[Sqye]

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Also, check out some of the cool renderings gullfo did at my original thread

MIXING BASS: Mixing & Monitoring in Project Studio (CR)...

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[DanDan]

My earlier comment 'huge vague' is probably giving the wrong impression. I am not at all critical of Linkwitz ideas or designs. I am sure they are stunning in the right room, and for listening pleasure, rather than analysis. It is the tweeter behind I would have the most issue with, but you could disconnect it. In fact, I recommend you try that.
Regarding SBIR. The Dipole, while is fires directly at the front wall, is little different from other designs, which are pretty much omni at LF. At the same time the Dipole design should exhibit nulls in the perpendicular plane. At best, no SBIR from the side walls, the floor, and the ceiling. Some of us may have to eat some hat here.

DD

[Sqye]

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Thanks, Dan.

I've heard the speakers a good deal with and without the rear tweeters.

I may actually prefer them with the dipole tweeters engaged, but untill I get the bass correct, I won't know for sure.

So far, it's kind of a toss up. There's not a huge amount of difference I can hear.

Thanks, man!
thumbsup

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[Sqye]

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I already posted this in my original thread in High End.

==============================================



OK, there is a god : )

Over this last weekend, I was finally able to make some corrections to my composing/mixing environment.

Here's what I did:

1. Created a pseudo anechoic chamber w/double layer 1/8" thick moving blankets around my mix position
2. Rotated my mix position 180 degrees (so, facing the rear of my mix room now)
3. Removed the Orions from my homemade pedestals
4. Removed the home made closed box subs
5. Engaged full bass on the Orion X-Over
6. Rolled off the tweeters 1 click on the Orion X-Over
7. Set up the Orions in an 82" isosceles triangle with my head (the rear side is longer/wider)

And literally almost cried.

These speakers are simply unbelievable.

So thank you Mr. Linkwitz for creating such an incredible speaker system, and for your help at your forum.

And thank you for all your help, guys. I'm currently in heaven. I'm looking forward to working on the Orions.

And a special thank you to David Espinosa, who has relentlessly pushed me to try the Orions the last few years,
and who facilitated the construction and set up in my studio in the Hudson Valley, NY.

David and I have auditioned quite a number of the standard studio monitors together, and I've certainly worked on many different monitors in my life. Up until now, my favorite studio monitors were the Dynaudio M1s and Klein + Hummel O 300s. However, David and I listened to Focal, PMC, Adam, Genelec, and all the standard 'pro-sumer' speakers like Mackie, JBL, KRK, etc. David was convinced I should be able to use the Orions for my work - even though they were designed for audiophiles - and now that I've corrected my mix position, killed some reflection and made the additional corrections, I do believe he's right.

So, all the best to you guys, and Happy New year!

I am now a Linkwitz Orion convert.

Joseph Briggs - Composer, Producer
Wired Planet Music, NY

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[AcousticsWizard]

you need primacoustic maxtraps in the corners (corners are your worst enemy) - they are $400 traps, but they are worth every penny because this is the only company on the market to manufacture bass traps that absorb effectively below 80hz. I also use the same barium-loaded membrane on my traps, but I am just local to Ontario.

[Sqye]

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Thanks, AcousticsWizard.

Stupid Question:
Why do I need bass traps in the corners, if I'm never IN the corners?

Yeah, the corners are bad, but who cares - I don't mix, track or listen in the corners...

And I mostly work alone.

The speakers and room sound amazing now I've properly located my mix position (monitors, etc.)
away from room modes and standing waves, AFAICT.

Thanks, man!
thumbsup

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[davidespinosa]

In the corner, you get standing waves from all three walls. Pressure is maximized at the wall, and velocity is zero. Since your ears sense pressure, the standing waves are really loud in the corners!

But fiberglass absorbs best when *velocity* is maximized (not pressure), which occurs in the center of the room, not the corners.

So why do people put bass absorbers in the corners? Because that's where there's room? Like, looking for your keys under the light, regardless where you dropped them?

Of course, if you knew how to build a pressure-sensitive bass trap, the corner would be a good place to put it...

[Sqye]

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Thanks, David. I hear you.

I can imagine that a smaller room than mine would be more problematic, but even then I don't see how you could get rid of the bass with traps (plus, there's no physical space for traps in a smaller room!)

But, as I've illustrated, I have easily 15 feet to any corner from my mix position (which is also my composing and playing position), so I'm far enough from any corners to be able to hear (and work) properly.

Again, I have a fairly large room - but I'd still rather put OTHER things (than bass traps) in the corners : ).....Like furniture, drum sets, amps, guitars, instrument cases, gear storage, cables and tools, lights, stools, mic stands, books, and you name it. I will try not to put any audience members in the corners : )

Besides, as we've established, there's no real bass "trap" for the big waves. Those big sines waves radiating in every direction aren't stopping for anyone or anything. If you can do lead and cement partitions, maybe, but even then. How many times to you pass a club in a cement building, and all you hear is bass outside.

Absorbing highs and mids, rotating mix position, tuning speakers/x-overs (EQ) seems to have been the cure.

Thanks for being persistent and insistent, man!

thumbsup

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[gullfo]

as long as you are making mix decisions which translate, then the room is right. of course you need to post some photos...

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by gullfo

as long as you are making mix decisions which translate, then the room is right. of course you need to post some photos...

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Will do, Gullfo!

I'm going to tidy up and complete the setup, and then I will.

...It's not going to LOOK as slick as your work, for sure

But since I largely work alone, this isn't so important to me. It's all about the sound.

Thanks, man.
thumbsup

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[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by AcousticsWizard

this is the only company on the market to manufacture bass traps that absorb effectively below 80hz.

Not to get into a dfegad contest but that's simply not true.

In the setup for my company's Hearing is Believing video we achieved a huge improvement down to below 40 Hz. This was using only our standard traps, since it was before we introduced our newer MegaTraps that absorb even more at those low frequencies. Proof below. Full details are in the video.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Sqye

Why do I need bass traps in the corners, if I'm never IN the corners?

This is pretty easy. Bass builds up and collects in the corners, and that's where the damaging reflections emanate from. That is, the reflections that skew the response at your ears come from the corners. So putting bass traps in the corners reduces the strength of the refections that reach out into the room where you listen.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This is pretty easy. Bass builds up and collects in the corners, and that's where the damaging reflections emanate from. That is, the reflections that skew the response at your ears come from the corners. So putting bass traps in the corners reduces the strength of the refections that reach out into the room where you listen.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts

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At my mix position, I'm currently sitting 15' plus from the corners.

I have 2 x 1/8" thick felt (with min. 1" space between sheets) hanging from floor to ceiling
about 5' out in front of the corners.

I also have the same felt treatment floor to ceiling around my entire mix position,
and draped under my entire ceiling (so covering the entire ceiling above me), as well.

So again, I'm working inside a pseudo anechoic chamber.

I'm currently not hearing any disturbing reflections, at all.


I watched your video, btw - it was hilarious.

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[Ethan Winer]

I've done many videos but I think I know which one you mean.

As for 15 feet, my home studio is 33 feet front to back and I still get peaks and nulls from the rear wall even though it's so far away. I could improve the response with more bass traps back there. But larger rooms can get away with less traps, and the room sounds pretty good as it is anyway.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts

[Glenn Kuras]

Sqye,

Here is a article we did on how bass traps work.
How Bass Traps Work. GIK Acoustics Articles and Newsletters.

Also there are many companies that make trapping that is very effective below 80hz. Real Traps being one and also you can see our lab testing here.
GIK Acoustic Panels are tested and certified.
Not trying to sell you anything, but only trying to point it out. There are other companies too. Oh and you can DYI.

[Sqye]

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Thanks, Glenn!

Will check out your data.

Hope all's well!
thumbsup


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[Lumin]

Hi Eathan,
How are these MegaTraps mounted to the ceiling corners?
Couldn't find any illustrations on RealTraps site.
Thanks

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

...In the setup for my company's Hearing is Believing video we achieved a huge improvement down to below 40 Hz. This was using only our standard traps, since it was before we introduced our newer MegaTraps that absorb even more at those low frequencies. Proof below. Full details are in the video.

--Ethan