Speaker distance vs. stopping reflections from monitor/desk

[The Beatsmith]

Hi

I'm hoping to move to a new location soon, and will need to buy a desk and speaker stands. I have the acoustic treatment under control (read: i know what i want!)

I have a pair of Adam S3A's and NS10's are secondary monitors and will go on top of the S3A's.

My girlfriend's father and uncle are very handy with a hammer and said they'd help me build a desk solution. Great. I'm also thinking of getting some fancy towersonic custom speaker stands for my Adam monitors. Great.

Problem is, if i'm sitting in the optimum position to mix and produce, then the speakers will be 'back' a bit and therefore my 24" monitor (hopefully a 27" or 30" within the year) will be right in the way of the sound? Or what if i have a dual monitor setup? Or even a rack shelf which is above the desk?

A lot of studios just seem to ignore this?

I'd like to know what the 'optimal' solution is - or at least pictures or descriptions of what you guys decided to do?

Is having the monitors on top of rack units on the desk (like an Argosy) the answer? Or will you be too close to the speakers then?

Obviously i'm speaking in general terms (depends on room size etc), but any general tips would be great.

Thanks

Eddie

[avare]

Dimensions? usually with the speakers in an equilateral triangle, video moitors will fit inbetwen the speakers. One option if the room is too small for that, is locate the video monitor lower so that the sound does not strike it.

Andre

[The Beatsmith]

i'm sorry, i'm talking mainly theoretically as i haven't found my new place yet.

the issue arose when i looked at the argosy console desks (which i like the look of a lot), with the monitors placements bits above the rack. this looks very nice, but i can't help thinking that if i'm sitting at the desk, then i'm NOT at the end of an equilateral triangle, i'm way too far forward, even if i angle the monitors in more than usual.

but if i buy stands and put the speakers on them, i'll have all sorts of reflections and your computer monitors will be 'in the way'.

if i put the computer monitor in line with the speakers in the setup, it will probably be too far to be able to read (24/27/30 inch) comfortably on a ri-res monitor

i guess i could buy a big 37inch TV that runs @ 1920x1080 and use that as a 'main monitor' and have that in line with or behind the speakers (on the wall perhaps), then the 24" closer buy for more detailed work... or have that angled.... that of course is more money for the TV!

still thinking, thanks!

[SAC]

Many don't ignore the video at all - they have resolved the issue by moving to either HD projection systems or wall mounted monitors.

And many (if not most) set the speakers back from the desk on pedestals specifically to minimize early reflections from the mix surface.

(And I will admit that, like Andre, I am a bit confused by your reference to 'dimensions'. I don't know of any 'set' distances, and the only ones that come to mind are a critical distance defining the transition from near field to far field...)

[The Beatsmith]

hi, thanks for your comments:

1) i have been in a lot of studios, and have never seen a HD project there. i hardly think that's commonplace? projectors tend to make quite a lot of noise too

2) mounting on the wall - that's fine, but it better be a BIG monitor otherwise i can't see how you're at the end of an equilateral triangle. but it could be a good solution.

3) if you put the speakers on stands and behind the console/desk, you're still going to get a load of early reflections off the desk?

4) i never asked for 'ideal dimensions', did i? i asked for advice on the issue, and andre asked for dimensions of my room. i then told him that i didn't have the room yet and was just generalising and asking because nothing is set in stone, so if there is a 'preferred way' to solve the question, i'd be able to then pursue that.

sorry if i misunderstood your points

[johndykstra]

Check post #49 in this thread:

Control room build: modes, soffits, slat walls, etc.

to see how I plan to handle desk surface reflections.

In terms of the video monitor, it seems to me any diffraction it causes would be outside the sweet spot, as diffraction from the left speaker should occur to your right

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

hi, thanks for your comments:

2) mounting on the wall - that's fine, but it better be a BIG monitor otherwise i can't see how you're at the end of an equilateral triangle. but it could be a good solution.

Beat, I find myself confused - it seems as though you don't know what an equilateral triangle is - Why I say this is because you speak of turning the speakers into you - in an equilateral triangle the speakers never turn - they simply slide up or down the line of the triangle. they will change angle in relation to vertical location - but the body of the speaker cabinet always remains the same in relation to the triangle.

The further the speakers get from you the further apart they are - if you have a screen that measures 32" in width - and it sits 2'-10" from you - then your speakers can slide right past it remaining on the lines of the triangle.

BTW - the best location to layout that triangle from is starting about 14 to 16 inches dead center behind your head - which will put the centerline of your speakers pretty much brushing each ear..... great for stereo imagery

[SAC]

It seems when we suggest it, its suspect, but when we can quote another respected source, it suddenly grows legs, so here are a couple of quotes from a highly qualified source:

Does the increasing number of computer screens cause additional problems?
RussBerger: Yes, anything that sits between the listener and the sound source is going to cause a problem. We like to incorporate projectors and acoustically transparent screens. This allows you to place the center channel right behind the screen and the problem is solved. You now have ample space to tile all your windows and nothing stands between you and your sound monitors. Be sure to listen to the projector before you buy. Nowadays, you can usually find ones that are relatively quiet. If a projector is not in your budget, take great care to place the video monitors in a way that does not impede your ability to hear what’s coming from your speakers, and limit your monitor count to two if at all possible.

from: Room Tuning with Russ Berger, by Rich Tozzolli; EQ Magazine, June 2006

And:

It's also critical to maintain an even soundstage across the front if we expect the mix to translate.
Another intractable problem is the video monitor in front; virtually all audio today has some video component to it. Either you want to see your Pro Tools up on the screen, or your console automation, or watch for the pizza delivery guy on the security monitor while you watch the football game. [Laughs] And that screen wants to occupy the same space as the center channel. So either you've got to fly that thing up in the breeze where you'll have a stiff neck from looking up or you've got to relocate your audio monitor to a place where you've compromised audio quality. This is why we've moved to using projection screens on the front wall.
Side-looking is wonderful from a technical sense, since now we've got all three speakers exactly where we want them. We're projecting an image that's easily read from the back of the room. And, our clients love the windows on the side that go all the way down to the floor. They feel like a part of the studio, and the studio feels like a part of the control room.

from: Russ Berger Full Service, Texas-Style, by Maureen Droney; Mix Magazine - June 2000


Additionally, it was also Russ who, while still with Joiner Rose , to my knowledge, first pioneered the use of mechanically isolated pedestal mounted speakers placed several feet back of the console placed at bridge height in order to avoid reflections off the mix surface. I have a printed source somewhere around here and I will post the link when I find it among the walls and walls of documentation!

[DanDan]

Beat, you can figure all that geometric stuff out with string and mirrors and a friend. We all get it to work somehow.
A few points.
The Towersonics are superb, for those that don't know they are height adjustable. ADAM S3A's perform better mounted vertically. I got a custom top plate from TowerSonic to do this nicely and safely. Say Hi to Seb for me.
With adjustable stands you will be able to find a minimum damage location . I stuffed my Towers with Eco Wool, this damped the tubes perfectly, I didn't need the extra mass of sand or whatever.
Do you really need a desk ( I am assuming you mean a mixing desk, or console as our colonial experiment friends call it.. ;-)
Without a desk all you need is a tiny surface for the mouse and keyboard.
In either case an angle can greatly diminish the dodgy reflection.
I have two 19 inch screens between my speakers, flush to the speaker fronts. No problem. I have to say though, as eyeglasses are intruding gradually, I would absolutely love a wall mounted flat screen.
46 inchers are becoming quite affordable these days.
DD

[The Beatsmith]

Hi DanDan

I hadn't considered the S3A's vertically. They look a bit unstable whenever i see them like this!

Do you have a picture of your S3A's on the towersonics? I've asked seb a couple of times but i don't think he has any as he hasn't replied.

When i say 'desk', i literally mean table. I have a screen and a Mackie control + 2 x XT's. I also need a bit of space either side for either a laptop or mpc/pads etc. I don't 'need' rack spaces in the table, but it would be nice. My ideal looking desk is one of the Argosy type desks, very professional looking, padded edges, etc. I will be trying to make my own desk so am looking for some inspiration there.

I was just pondering if the stands (towersonic probably) are the way to go, or to have rack shelves on the desk and then put the speakers on top of that, is all

Thanks to all for your comments

[DanDan]

Frick, my camera battery just died. Here is a rather poor shot from my phone.


The arrangement is quite stable, even without a sand filling. The Towersonic stands are very much heavier and steadier than anything else I have ever seen. I got Seb to do a custom size top plate. You should ask him to include this size as a standard option. ADAM recommend Towersonic. Furthermore ADAM Germany now recommend the vertical orientation, as a result of secret Hiberno-Germano tests...... ssssshhh.
These are two tables from a school. Low and small. I made a plywood shelf for the front one to hold the rack stuff. The mouse/key one can move freely on a long USB lead. I intend shortening two of the legs today to have it angle towards me, eliminating a reflection of the tweeter.

This may look a little messy in this photo. In reality it is very impressive and acoustically clean.

Note Towersonic do Vesa mounting arrangements to support flat monitors etc. etc.
Maybe expensive but you will never need to buy another.


DD

[DannyMac]

common to many studios I've worked in Im just having the monitor to the right side of the mixing desk - on a trolly with rotatable extension arm

[The Beatsmith]

thanks guys!

i'll eventually be going for the same stands as you, with both plates

from reading this, i hope it won't be a problem with the monitors - i'll post back in a few weeks when i'm actually moved in and starting to set up...

thanks again

[hereticskeptic]

Hey DanDan,

I like the idea of a smaller desk surface, since I do not have a mix desk. I am wondering, however, where you guys are placing rack gear, if you are using any. I've seen some folks have their gear in racks placed far on the side walls, but this would seem to kill workflow, as it would be easier to have compressors, eq, etc right near you, to be in the sweet spot when making critical mix/processing decisions.

I've seen an Argosy desk that is small, with two low-profile racks on the floor right next to the desk, but wasn't sure if that would be ergonomic (bending to reach gear = back strain).

Raven H10 Workstation by Argosy Console, Inc.

That's the one. Would something with that sort of design be a good idea, or are racks near the desk just not a good idea?

I'm looking into buying a desk soon, but don't want to get a huge desk that looks good, if it will just ruin acoustics in the room.

[SörenHjalmarsson]

hereticskeptic,

Well i'm not DanDan, but i've got a simular set-up!

The only thing that can stop you is your own imagination, there are lots of ways to get a comfortable setup that suits YOU and still is acoustically satisfying - sometimes you have to experiment a bit to achieve both...

Personally i like the idea of having racks lying on the floor (on their backs) like this:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...-side-view.jpg

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5893729-post54.html

Right now however i've got a low rack, standing on the floor beside me (see picture).

[hereticskeptic]

Yo, how goes it Soren!? Appreciate your reply.

Yeah, what you've got going is very similar to the argosy desk I dropped a link to. Not so much in design, but in concept: low desk surface, racks on side of desk, on the floor, speaker monitors on stands behind desk at much higher height than desk surface, cpu monitors as far back as possible.

I'd personally just have a custom built desk, as I don't think the Argosy looks that good, compared to how much loot you can save by just having something really simple built.

My biggest concerns are:

1. Is it necessary to have the desk tilted forward, or is a small desk surface with monitors behind desk going to be fine to deal with early reflections?

2. How much higher than the desk surface would you recommend the monitors be (tweeter level), to avoid desk reflections? One's chair can only sit so high, thus the monitors can only be so high.

3. How low is the desk in these instances? I am concerned with needing to hunch, or bend over to view the cpu monitor, use the keyboard/mouse and access the floor racks. If the desk surface/racks are low and monitors high, ergonomics become a major issue.

Just looking for any suggestions and/or insight. I've pretty much realized that the desk I was going to have built would not be a wise investment, and a much smaller desk would be ideal, but I do not want to go the smaller route, and be uncomfortable, or lack a solid a sweet spot, due to desk height vs monitor height issues.

Thanks,

Dakhil

[SörenHjalmarsson]

Originally Posted by hereticskeptic

Yo, how goes it Soren!? Appreciate your reply.

No sweat! I'll answer your question below in red.

My biggest concerns are:

1. Is it necessary to have the desk tilted forward, or is a small desk surface with monitors behind desk going to be fine to deal with early reflections?

Tilted is usually prefered, how much depends on the relationship of all the variables...

2. How much higher than the desk surface would you recommend the monitors be (tweeter level), to avoid desk reflections? One's chair can only sit so high, thus the monitors can only be so high.

Again, It depends on all the variables involved in the equation. the design needs to be planned carefully and specifically so as to avoid any early specular reflections (aswell as diffraction) off your work surface. Speaker hight, dispersion and placement along with desk angle, size, placement, hight, floor reflections and heat issues etc., are all taken into account...

Lastly you take ETC measurements and make necessary adjustments (if needed) until you are satisfied with the result....

3. How low is the desk in these instances? I am concerned with needing to hunch, or bend over to view the cpu monitor, use the keyboard/mouse and access the floor racks. If the desk surface/racks are low and monitors high, ergonomics become a major issue.

Usually you want to keep the tweeters as low as possible in regards to the desk and you can always adjust you chair, so it's usually not a problem (but like i said earlier you have to experiment a bit). If you can have everything made to be hight adjustable (chair, desk, monitor stands etc.,), that makes things easier...

Check these out for more info:

JHBrandt - Studio Design News issue3
Building a Desk
Monitor positioning - Too far apart or firing partially into the back of my LCDs?


Sören

[hereticskeptic]

Yes, I agree with you that having each element of the setup be adjustable would be the way to go. This is definitely doable, but with monitor stands, being adjustable usually equates to super high costs. It seems that just having adjustable stands would be a great move, assuming your desk is not very high profile (28" or lower, which is 736.6 mm).

It will definitely all be setup specific, but I figure that grabbing two face-up style racks (extremely low profile), and keeping the desk surface at low height, then adding adjustable stands, should keep things both affordable and open to necessary adjustments.

I will be using near-fields, and am thus curious as to the furthest distance one would want to place these behind the desk. I know mid-fields are cool to place several feet back, but am kind of assuming that near-fields will have a certain distance behind the desk, after which placement screws up the sound image.

I'm gonna look into the cost of getting a small custom desk and face-up racks built, so that the work space maintains a certain aesthetic appeal, but is still reasonable for what I need (no huge desk ego). I am most worried about the cost of adjustable stands, but will likely find a way to determine the optimal setup before buying stands, and then just buy them at the appropriate height when it is determined.

I am going to read the newsletter you posted, and actually was already in that other GS thread you linked to, haha! Thanks.

[hereticskeptic]

edit: I originally came off like I was unwilling to learn and/or do the necessary work to create a more ideal acoustic space. My reply was more out of frustration with the sometimes seemingly endless pursuit of a proper setup. That being said, I have yet to do any room measurements, share any graphs or make any adjustments. I also had never considered a minimal work surface and so forth, so honestly, I've done more reading than application. After a lot more reading and thought, I believe I simple need help and certain tools to get things set up in proper fashion.

I would love some assistance in determining the ideal set up for my room. What tools do I need, where do I start, and would you be willing to help me along the way, Soren? I won't be getting new racks/ a desk for some months, but when I do, I'd love to have your help.

For now, can you maybe tell me a list of things I will need to work on setting things up properly? For example, I believe I'll need a measurement mic and measurement software (using an imac). Will you need my room dimensions, desk height, current treatment, etc?

Thanks in advance for any and all help, as always.

[hereticskeptic]

bump, in case post edits don't show up as new posts to alert subscribers.

[DanDan]

I work almost entirely in Software. My analogue pieces are preamps and 1176 comps. I don't tweak much so it doesn't matter that they are hidden in an alcove.
Take a look at Mastering studios. Most of them seem to use variations on that low desk idea.

There are setup and treatment articles at johnlsayers.com, RealTraps, GIK, John Brandt, the reference sticky here, etc. etc.
Do remember that position choices are the most powerful and cheapest factors.

For a measuring flying start....
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...er-v2-1-a.html

The mirror works fine for finding possible reflection paths. Measurement shows the actual reflections in the ETC, or more vividly, the destruction caused by them as comb filtering. Desktop Reflection Revealed

DD

[hereticskeptic]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I work almost entirely in Software. My analogue pieces are preamps and 1176 comps. I don't tweak much so it doesn't matter that they are hidden in an alcove.
Take a look at Mastering studios. Most of them seem to use variations on that low desk idea.

There are setup and treatment articles at johnlsayers.com, RealTraps, GIK, John Brandt, the reference sticky here, etc. etc.
Do remember that position choices are the most powerful and cheapest factors.

For a measuring flying start....
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...er-v2-1-a.html

The mirror works fine for finding possible reflection paths. Measurement shows the actual reflections in the ETC, or more vividly, the destruction caused by them as comb filtering. Desktop Reflection Revealed

DD

Thanks DanDan.

I'm starting to get some very, very good ideas of what I'd like my set up to look like. For right now, a basic stand that will hold my keyboard and mouse will be right in front of me. In front of that, another stand of some sort that will hold my imac. Ideally, I'm hoping to be able to have the stand with imac be in-line with the monitors, which will also be on stands of their own. At a lower profile, on either side of the keyboard desk, will be a face-up style rack with my gear.

And that's basically it. I'm also considering a very low-profile design that is much like an Argosy 260N, but would rather have the racks be separate, lower than desk and to the side of the desk, rather than conjoined.

After that is set up, I'll get the necessary measurement mic (dayton/behringer) and whatever software is necessary, and do measurements to determine how to best position my setup, in the event that it can be improved.

My major concern is how to position two sets of speaker monitors (nearfields and mixcubes), without having to adjust the mix position to be in the sweet spot. I wouldn't want any one pair of monitors to be more forward (closer to me) than the other, since I want as small of a surface between monitors and my ears as possible.

Basically, something like the Argosy Raven's design would be excellent, though I'm not planning on getting that particular setup. It's just got the small desk that can adjust between 24.5" and 30.5" in height, as well as the face-up racks on either side of the desk, with a max height of 22".

I think I've got a good start in mind, but welcome any and all suggestions.

[SörenHjalmarsson]

Originally Posted by hereticskeptic

I will be using near-fields, and am thus curious as to the furthest distance one would want to place these behind the desk. I know mid-fields are cool to place several feet back, but am kind of assuming that near-fields will have a certain distance behind the desk, after which placement screws up the sound image.

Generally:

Nearfield = approx. 1-2 meters away from the listener
Midfield = approx. 2-4 meters away from the listener

Originally Posted by hereticskeptic

I would love some assistance in determining the ideal set up for my room. What tools do I need, where do I start, and would you be willing to help me along the way, Soren? I won't be getting new racks/ a desk for some months, but when I do, I'd love to have your help.

For now, can you maybe tell me a list of things I will need to work on setting things up properly? For example, I believe I'll need a measurement mic and measurement software (using an imac). Will you need my room dimensions, desk height, current treatment, etc?

Heretic,

Start with starting a new thread (when you are ready) and magic will, like always on GS, happen...

Here is your order of events:

1. Calculation & design
2. Construction
3. Measurement
4. Adjustment.

Some reading:

RealTraps - Room Measuring Series
RealTraps - Measuring Microphones
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/REWV5_help.pdf


Sören

[hereticskeptic]

Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson

Generally:

Nearfield = approx. 1-2 meters away from the listener
Midfield = approx. 2-4 meters away from the listener



Heretic,

Start with starting a new thread (when you are ready) and magic will, like always on GS, happen...

Here is your order of events:

1. Calculation & design
2. Construction
3. Measurement
4. Adjustment.

Some reading:

RealTraps - Room Measuring Series
RealTraps - Measuring Microphones
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/REWV5_help.pdf


Sören

Sounds great!

By calculations and design, are you talking about room and desk dimensions? Specifically, what parts of the process would fit under calculation/design, and which under construction?

I'll definitely start a new thread when the time comes. Sounds like a good idea.

I've read the articles the links are attached to, but could definitely do the first one again. My biggest concerns were ensuring that I didn't get a desk, only to find out I need to do measurement before getting a desk (as most have no return policy). I'll definitely grab an EMC8000, or Dayton EMM-6. Fuzz Measure seems like a great idea as well, though I will try to get REW working on the iMac before I go with Fuzz.

Gotta decide on the small keyboard/mouse desk with side racks, or something along the lines of the Sterling Modular Plan Uno, with similar width, but more depth to the desk (yet, more comfy rack space position). I know which one will be cheaper, haha.

edit: On second thought, the depth of the Plan Uno design, unless a cpu monitor shelf was built into the design, would prove to be too lengthy to allow for flexibility of speaker monitor placement. Overall, a simple desk that can hold keyboard and mouse would allow for the most flexibility, as far as placement of cpu and speaker monitors.

[SörenHjalmarsson]

Calculation & Design - is what usually takes place in this forum...

Construction - Is what usually takes place in the photo diary forum...

i.e. First you design and then you execute (construct) your design.

And like Andre's signature says: "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction".


Sören

[hereticskeptic]

Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson

Calculation & Design - is what usually takes place in this forum...

Construction - Is what usually takes place in the photo diary forum...

i.e. First you design and then you execute (construct) your design.

And like Andre's signature says: "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction".


Sören

Gotcha.

I'd say design is going well then. I just need to let go of the desire to have those racks on the desk, even if the desk is angled. The desk will just be too deep to allow placement flexibility for all other elements, in a room that is the size of mine.

Humility and practicality are in order.