New Member - Huge Studio Design/Build - Photo Journal

[Stratosticks]

Hey everyone! Long time reader, first time poster. I have learned a great deal reading this forum over the years, so I've decided to share my undertaking with you all with the hope of inspiring and informing others. This is just an introduction, I will post photos in the next couple days and keep this thread updated throughout the entire process from framing, to treating the rooms and installing the gear.

I'm 30 years old, and have been dabbling with DAW and PC recording for over a decade now. I figure I don't have much to lose at this age, so I've put all my chips in and have leased a 2700 s.f. space in a mill building to build a studio in. It comes complete with hardwood floors, some exposed brick, and best of all, 12' ceilings.

I'm crazy.

It is a blank canvas and needs SO much work just to get it to the point where I can move my gear in. Did I also mention that I can barely afford to do this? I'm gonna have to get pretty used to Ramen Noodles if I'm gonna make this thing work.

I've enlisted the help of some good friends and partners to help me do all of the work. There is about 4-5 of us, and everyone is extremely excited. They have volunteered their time to get this completed, as well as donated their own arsenal of recording gear to put into the pot once the build is complete. We all feel we can make a go at this. Some of us currently record bands in out individual studios. Our ultimate goal is to be a multifaceted Music & Video Production/Promotion/Marketing/Management & Distribution arm for promising local and regional artists. A full service independent label, for a lack of a better term.

The first thing to do is refinish the floors and move all of the materials in. We'll be bringing up 200 1/2" sheets of sheetrock, 350 2X4 studs, 80 2X6X12's, alsong with (7) 5' glass sliding doors, and (2) 36" Swinging glass patio doors.

The studio will consist of a control room approx. 18X16', a 14'X12' live room, a 4'X4' Vox Iso, and an 8'X4' Guitar Iso. There will be no 90 degree corners anywhere, we will fillet all the corners with 4' wall, and incorporate a bass trap in/on each one. I'm going to prescribe to the Ethan Winer method and focus on treatment as opposed to spending money on new gear right now. I'm going to build as many bass traps and broadband absorbers as I can fit in both the control room and live room. I'm also going to construct a Q.R.D. the size of an entire wall in the live room, and a Q.R.D. along the back wall of the control room. At his point the Vox Iso and Guitar Iso will have wedge foam from wall to wall and the whole ceiling.

I can't wait to get some pictures taken of the empty space and get them posted up here. I really encourage feedback, criticism, support, ect. This will be a huge project and I know this forum will be a lifesaver.

I'm going to list some of the construction features I'm going to incorporate into the build. Stay posted for photos and updates. Thanks!

Greg

-Double wall between the control room & live room
-Double 1/2" drywall with a 1" air gap between layers via strapping
-Filletted wall corners and ceiling/wall corners
-Angled ceiling in control room
-Hanging broadband absorbers from live room ceiling
-Hardwood Floors
-Sliding glass doors in all rooms
-Swinging glass in Iso Rooms
-R-13 throughout wall framing
-Q.R.D. in Live room
-Q.R.D. on control room rear wall
-Performance Area w/16'X12' Stage for live shows with installed PA System
-(32) PAR 56 on Stage
-Raised Sound Booth in Performance Area
-16'X10' Video Production Studio/Room
-Lounge with Leather Sectional, PS3, XBox Live, 50' LCD TV, & Surround Sound
-4 Keg Beer Cooler with 4 Taps (will contain Guinness!!!!!)
-Conference Room for Artist Consultation, Promotional Planning, and Team Meetings
-(2) Private Offices for Principals/Promoters/Managers

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Stratosticks

-4 Keg Beer Cooler with 4 Taps (will contain Guinness!!!!!)

Clearly this is the single most important feature!

--Ethan

[Rod Gervais]

a few comments - first, you will be much better off with 2x6 @ 24 than 2x4 @ 16" when it comes to lF isolation - which is the big challenge. The cost per foot of wall is basially the same.

Next - send the few extra duckies and get 5/8" instead of 1/2 for the drywall - it will make a world os forrf difference in the LF isolation levels.

Make certain to caulk those corners......

Check your local handicapped codes - sliding glass doors do NOT meet the handicapped requirements in CT - i am not familiar with the NH codes - double Sliding glass doors are problematical because the track assemblies generally do NOT meet accessibility codes.. doubles are even worse.

Good luck

Rod

[johndykstra]

A couple things i notice off the bat.

Don't truncate your corners with wall construction... build it normal and either fill that corner with fiber, or straddle it.

Your vocal iso is small, and probably robbing square footage that would be better suited in increasing the volume of the live room. Simply use your slightly larger guitar iso for vocal dubs..it'll sound way better. Remember, if you have a whole band recording at once, a little bleed is a good thing... I can't imagine needing more than one iso.

Be careful to not only treat your booths with foam...need bass traps in there too.

Reconsider the angled ceiling in the control room, again you are chewing up valuable sq. footage. I understand your reasoning, but you will likely be better suited to build an angled cloud, with a hard back under a standard horizontal ceiling. The insulation will absorb much of the reflection, but frequencies too low to be absorbed will reflect off the angle of the hard back... giving you both benefits, without squeezing the bass into a smaller room.

Look at some room mode calculators to determine good ratios for dimensions. With angled walls, you can use as average distance for an approximation, but YMMV. Wall spacing by a matter of inches can be the difference between disaster and bliss.

Good luck!!!!

[johndykstra]

If you have 12' ceilings...

one of your live room dimensions is 12'... not good.

also, your booths are divisions of 12' in all dimensions... not good


Not busting your chops, but you may want to slow down... It's easy enough to screw things up if you are starting with perfect numbers, but based on what you have posted, you are heading into a crap storm.

[johndykstra]

few more things...sorry.

while bad for high frequencies, rectangular rooms are better for predicting the behavior of low frequencies... thus we can design the room to exacting ratios, so that room modes are evenly spaced throughout the spectra... making them easier to handle.

You can still employ the benefits of an angled wall... it just needs to fall within the already rectangular structure. See diagram below...

... the bass in the room reacts to the stiff construction of the perimeter walls...it goes right through the walls that are wood colored... "false walls". They have strips of wood on them to reflect high freq back into the room, but at an angle, to reduce flutter echo. The percentage of wood vs. space will determine just how much high freq. you are letting back into the room. sound that hits a "space" travels into the insulation between the false wall and the structure and is absorbed. Also, there are calculators online to determine the spacing of the wood, to "tune" the wall to absorb different bass frequencies. After knowing what your room mode is, you can adjust the spacing of your slats (wood strips), effectively seeking out the particular offending frequency.

Also, take some time to learn "google sketchup" it's a free software used by a lot of the members here. After a bit of time, you'll be able to draw things quite quickly. (The room below I drew in no more than 5 minutes.) It's a great way to visualize your questions to the experts... of which I am not...just trying to help the little that I can.

-John

[Stratosticks]

Hey all! Thanks for all the input and feedback! Here's my situation, I have access to a large amount of 1/2" drywall for about 40% of the cost of 5/8ths. I need to take advantage of that, so I need to stick with the 1/2".

There are architectural boundaries that exist within this space (e.g. support posts spaced 12'X16', areas of the space not suitable for high volume activities because of who's below the floor) I need to stick pretty close to the design I've included here. I can stray from it a little to help with the room ratios, but it kinda is what it is at this point. The best I can hope for is to treat it well enough after the fact. I am a little worried that 12' dimension, as well as the dividends of it, are going to haunt me, but I need to work somehow within the support post dimensions.

As far as the 2 iso rooms are concerned, I had some dead space behind where the desk is going to sit so I'm going to build 2 booths. I like the idea of that because I can keep a guitar rig in one and the vocal mic in the other, and won't need to set the stuff back up after tracking each one. The booths are not going to impact the size of the live room at all. Also, I can use it as a marketing mechanism. I'll be able to tell people I have a "special" booth for vocals, and a "special" booth for guitars. Whatever, right?

If you take a look at the floor plan that was thrown together in AutoCAD you can see the basic layout. Some of those dimentions have changed a little. What do you guys think of the CR and LR? Any suggestions on how I can improve them working with what I have for a layout?

[johndykstra]

Very hard to make out much from that photo. Can you zoom in to the actual studio portion of the space, and omit all the lounge and office area?

Also, I notice your corners are still truncated. You really don't want to do that.

[Bassmankr]

Both Live room and Control room are basically square rooms which are the worst for acoustics. You have plenty of square footage to fool around with. Start again and rethink your space alocations and placement of those rooms. Get some pro help if you can't figure this stuff out yourself as it looks like you are tring to get some major designing done for free (it's going to take some time to come up with a great design for this space and what you want to put into it). A good starting point is "Golden ratio" retangular rooms for better acoustics. The bigger the volume of the Control and Live rooms the better so the lounge should not get the biggest space.

[johndykstra]

Yeah dude, that's a mess. I think you are trying to do too much with this space. A live venue and a studio? Do you have any idea of what the insurance costs of this is going to be? Are you getting a liquor license? Doing all age shows? You mentioned earlier, that you don't know how you are going to pay for this.... I don't either. Are you zoned properly? How about parking? Does the neighborhood know what's coming to town? If not your alderman is going to want some palm greasing.


Seriously, step back and think EVERYTHING out for a minute. I have a feeling ill-ratio-ed rooms may be the least of your worries.

Based on the size of your bathroom, I would guess your legal capacity is going to be about 20...that's including bands, sound engineer, door guy and security. Not much of a show.

Given the size of your live room, I'd guess you're looking at a $20 an hour facility... tops.

Are you leasing this space or do you own it?

Are you not at all concerned with having rowdy rock shows, with nothing between your studio and the venue being a sliding glass door? I don't know that I would want to entice potential theives to that extent. It's not on accident that world class studios maintain a low key exterior... in an effort to curtail would be interest. You are inviting that element into your facility on a $5 a head admission.

[johndykstra]

Sorry,

I just read back and saw that you are leasing.

Yikes. No real estate profits to fall back on, and a whole lot of reno you can't take with you if it doesn't work.

I admire your gusto.

I would suggest, at the very least, consider combining the live performance area with the live room. Clearly you won't be able to do both at once anyway. You could incorporate a splitter snake on stage, and specialize in live recordings... something I have wanted to take on for a long time is opening a live performance recording club.... one set of sends to the live p.a., and a split to an isolated control room. For non-signed artists, you could work out a deal where you can produce product night of the show and sell it directly to the audience... or at the very least supply a download coupon to give yourself some time to get a shiny mix on it.

In terms of the support columns, don't worry about them. Build isolation sleeves around them and incorporate some into the rooms. Acoustically speaking, these relatively small objects are far less objectionable than having small rooms.

Please realize, I'm not trying to be a ball buster... I gain nothing by attempting to point out possibilities of failure.

I built a studio in a band member's house a few years back. I thought I had researched it extensively. If we could have started construction then with the limited knowledge I have now, I could have saved us tons of money, and ended up with a way superior product.

I'm not trying to suggest you haven't done research, but there are some serious red flags in you plans that suggest you should do a bit more.

Good luck brother!

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Stratosticks

Hey all! Thanks for all the input and feedback! Here's my situation, I have access to a large amount of 1/2" drywall for about 40% of the cost of 5/8ths. I need to take advantage of that, so I need to stick with the 1/2".

So that makes it easy - just figure 3 layers of 1/2" - cause 2 is not going to go anywhere near getting the job done.

One thing i can see right off the bat is that there is no way you meet the requirements for handicapped access in your design - I would be very surprised to see this design pass muster with the building department, I do not see the entrance to the space - never mind a second exit. You would be amazed at the things you can get away with in your home that you cannot get away with in a commercial venture.

I think one of your first priorities should be to consider hiring a professional in the field of design to get your plans straightened out. Being able to use autocad does not make you qualified to understand all of the intricacies of the various codes. Even some seasoned architects get these things screwed up.

Personally - i believe you are in way over your head right now - you should have first figured out what you wanted - then figured out the "right way" to achieve that - and THEN, once you had all of that worked out - along with the costs associated with that - then and only then consider the space to lease.... and believe me - i am not trying to give you a hard time.

A great lease in a space that limits your construction to the point that you have a poor quality studio when you are finished will not benefit you in the end. Nor will rushing things just to get going - the work done prior to beginning construction is one of the most important parts of the whole project - it is make it or break it at this stage.

I do wish you luck,

Sincerely,


Rod

[Stratosticks]

Hey guys. Don't worry about my back doors, liquor license, shitter, or wheelchairs getting stuck in the sliding doors. What I'm proposing is fully within the parameters of local zoning and building codes. There won't be any "greasing of any alderman's palms", LOL.

I'm a self-employed Civil Engineer with a Master's Degree. Not implying that my profession has anything to do with being an acoustical engineer or studio designer by any means, but I've got the permitting aspect covered.

What I do lack is an applied understanding of room dynamics. This facility is going to be multi-faceted, and I am willing to sacrifice some acoustical performance in exchange for the practical function of the business model I have drafted. What I'm seeking is some insight on how I can attain the best possible results within the parameters and boundaries I have mentioned.

People build studios in garages, basements, and spare bedrooms every day without the luxury of choosing room ratios and wall angles. I have a slight advantage because I am able to marginally modify my layout in order to suit my needs as a recording studio. (shave a wall here - move a corner there) I'm not going to stray far from my design. I can however modify and revise (to some degree) my exact dimensions and details. I want to extract the best possible results from what I have to work with.

Anyone with a mouse can operate a room ratio calculator. Can someone here please tell me how to get the most out of the design I have proposed? We can just make pretend it's already built and I'm now going to make it a studio.

Thanks.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by Stratosticks

Hey guys. Don't worry about my back doors, liquor license, shitter, or wheelchairs getting stuck in the sliding doors. What I'm proposing is fully within the parameters of local zoning and building codes. There won't be any "greasing of any alderman's palms", LOL.

I think that guy was giving you some pretty good advice actually.

The question is not, DO you have the permits, but, is it practical, from a business perspective??

I just watched something like this go down about 6 months ago. All ages venue (bigger capacity than yours), and they wanted to put in a studio as well, on a shoestring budget, and the whole thing was very ill-conceived.
Needless to say, it failed miserably, they didn't accomplish any of their goals, and spent a bunch of money they didn't have only to walk away from it.

Just be careful, it's fun to shoot for the moon, but you have to be realistic as well.

good luck.

[Bassmankr]

What we have been trying to say is you have a bad layout of the spaces and reworking a wall or two isn't going to change that fact. While you may be a pro at load calcs (I hope you ran some calcs on how much live load your wood floors could handle for a crowded show), designing appropriate space footprints for a function and arranging those footprints to best fit in a given space is clearly not your forte and as such the suggestions from us are you seek pro help. If this was a smaller home space I'm sure lots of free help would be offered but you have a large commercial space that you want to fit alot of different functioning spaces into it and as such you are in need of a pro. Just the fact that you have one small bathroom that will have to service 40+ people at one time and you have to walk across a stage to access it clearly tells me you don't know what you are doing. Spend the money and get at least a design-build guy that knows codes and how to better layout your spaces to function correctly. Remember square rooms are bad for audio.

[johndykstra]

You are already hearing everything you need to hear. Your room layouts are bad, and you are choosing to have two (although both are not quite so) large areas to perform two different tasks that can never operate simultaneously. Confining room sizes to the space between supports is a very bad idea.

It just occured to me last night, a HUGE hole in your plan, that I'm surprised I hadn't noticed earlier. You bragged upon arrival of the beautiful wood floors throughout the space. Being that you are planning on using these floors, that tells me that you aren't planning on utilizing a true "room within a room" concept, and floating a new floor on top of the existing for each room individually. On top of that, we already know you have downstairs neighbors concerned with noise. This just keeps getting better.

For the record, with a small handful posts under your belt, for you to come back and tell us you got it all figured out... you just need a little tweaking... My turn to "LOL". They should change the expression to "you can't tweak a turd."

The proper response, when advice is given, is...."interesting, I should look into the logistics of that. Thanks for your input."

Best of luck pal, you're gonna need it. You mentioned eating Ramen to help pay for this. Unless you're backing down from three squares at NOBU eating Kobe steak as an appetizer... you're not even close. If done properly, there's no way you get this up and going for any less than $100,000... I original wanted to say $250,000... but I have to consider the possibility of Behringer gear. That's conservative, and that doesn't even take into account your lease. To recoup that egg with a studio that is currently a tiny step above a "basement" studio as you call it, along with a live venue that can barely support a guest list's capacity...

I'll be keeping my eye on the second hand classifieds about a year from now

Toodles.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Stratosticks

Hey guys. Don't worry about my back doors, liquor license, shitter, or wheelchairs getting stuck in the sliding doors. What I'm proposing is fully within the parameters of local zoning and building codes. There won't be any "greasing of any alderman's palms", LOL.

Sorry - if this is a commercial venture open to the public for services - you are NOT designed in accordance with New Hampshire accessibility codes ( http://www.nh.gov/disability/informa...list1.9.09.pdf ) - regardless of whether some local official will give you a permit - you are also not in accord with the 2002 IBC which was adopted by Manchester NH September 4, 2001 as their building code -

The design is also NOT in accordance with the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA) - and while I know for a fact that no one local can enforce or is even supposed to mention that to you - you are still required by federal law to comply. The fines for first offenders never exceed 10 grand - so it isn't that big a deal......

Seriously I do know that it only takes one complaint - after which time you would be ripping out whatever you had to in order to make it accessible - I have seen this happen on more than a few occasions with the feds...

I am (however) surprised to hear that there are no comments in this regard by the local officials - they are pretty lax up there apparently.

BTW this is one of the things i do for a living - I review construction drawings and documents to verify compliance with building, life safely and HC accessiblity codes and standards.

Rod

[MTStudios]

Originally Posted by Rod Gervais

Sorry - if this is a commercial venture open to the public for services - you are NOT designed in accordance with New Hampshire accessibility codes ( http://www.nh.gov/disability/informa...list1.9.09.pdf ) - regardless of whether some local official will give you a permit - you are also not in accord with the 2002 IBC which was adopted by Manchester NH September 4, 2001 as their building code -

The design is also NOT in accordance with the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA) - and while I know for a fact that no one local can enforce or is even supposed to mention that to you - you are still required by federal law to comply. The fines for first offenders never exceed 10 grand - so it isn't that big a deal......

And some of us wheelies happen to be engineers and muso's too. It frustrates me to no end when I see/hear of people building studios/venues and assuming accessibility isn't going to apply to them. At least laws and regulations in the US are better than here in Aus. There are scores of studios and venues I can't access.

[therealbigd]

Only just taken a proper look at this, and it all seems to be the daftest idea ever.

Without any knowledge of accessability, licenses, or acoustics, common sense will tell you that this really is a daft idea.

You have shown interest in building a studio, video production room and a venue. in the space you have got, you could build any 3 of them well, or all 3 of them badly. For some reason, you chose the latter option.

Flaws in the plan identifiable by common sense:
1) When the venue is in use, the studio and the video rooms are unusable. This means they are taking up unnecessary room. When the studio or video room is in use, the venue is unusable, and taking up unnecessary room. So at any one time, you have half of the building doing absolutely nothing.
2) You have this whopping great building and a tiny control room and live room, when you could have big ones! You've got the space to build a semi-pro studio, and you're putting a basement project studio in there.
3) Sound desks stuck to the back corner of a venue are as useful as sound desks glued upside down and backwards to the ceiling. All you hear is the bass carrying down the walls, and nothing else.
4) The only poo-room is on the stage. Meaning when a band is playing people have to hold on, and wheelchair users are completely screwed.
5) The bog is next to the vocal booth, meaning you will inevitably hear the sound of a flush down the mic, or musicians will have to hold on whilst the singer is doing their stuff. (In both these cases, I think the chances of the back corner of your lounge smelling bad in no time is high).


It goes on.

You've got 3 ideas and a good space. Do 1 of them well, maybe 2 (video and studio). Doing 3 badly is just stupid and a waste of a good space and budget! Or if you must, at least DESIGN it, rather than sketching it on the back of your hand when drunk and interpreting that onto paper in the hungover morning, like it seems you have done!

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by MTStudios

And some of us wheelies happen to be engineers and muso's too. It frustrates me to no end when I see/hear of people building studios/venues and assuming accessibility isn't going to apply to them. At least laws and regulations in the US are better than here in Aus. There are scores of studios and venues I can't access.

Unfortunately - not all of the building officials either care or are intelligent enough to carry it through - and (on the other hand) some of the advocates are just plain crazy.

There was a misinterpreted code in Connecticut a couple of years back - so this hotel ends up with handicapped guest room baths that are constructed with exactly the same clearances as any handicapped apartment tennant would have in this state - which (believe me) is plenty accessible - and which is also the way that hotels were being designed all throughout the US.

These baths were constructed specifically in accordance with the American's wth Disability Act - and we ever had the Feds review the documents to make certain there were no issues.

So the Connecticut Advocates Office raises this issue - when the hotel rooms are all finished and the furniture is moving in - and - when they were done with their thing - the owners coughed up 450 thousand US dollars to redo 17 handicapped bathrooms. We appealed it - but they showed up with a bunch of people in wheelchairs and the Channel 8 news crew with cameras - screaming about how the hotel owners were treating the handicapped like 2nd class citizens - claiming that we are the gold star state when it comes to taking care of the handicapped - and completely ignoring my question as to why this design was acceptable for long term residency - but not for an overnight stay...... especially when it was in accordance with 99% of the accommodations anyone would find in the US.

The owners (of course ) recouped from the architects in terms of actual dollars to make the fix - but not the lost time.

This is something I take real seriously...

All of that aside - you really should hire a professional to design your studio - regardless of your Masters degree and your PE in Civil Engineering - you do not have a clue what you are doing here - and while I do not mind helping someone figure out how to build a home studio (hell that's what the book is about) I do think that people entering into commercial projects should have the wherewithal to hire a professional design team as a part of their cost of doing business.

There are a ton of reasons I can think of why it makes sense - not a single one why it doesn't.

Rod

[johndykstra]

This is about to turn into a Kitchen Nightmare's episode, where the struggling restaurantuer calls in the help of a world renown chef for advice on how to fix his business, only to tell the pro he doesn't know what he's talking about...

you guys got your popcorn?

A true "don't take our word on it... here's the guy who 'wrote the book on it'" situation.

[gn87berner]

again dykstra on point

[Stratosticks]

I was talking with a client today about this website when I reminded myself about this thread. I remembered how obtuse and stolid a couple of the responses were before I gave up on any hope I'd be able to procure any useful insight.

I figured I'd throw up an update so the same dullards can mock and provoke me some more. Haha. This will be purely for my own entertainment value.

Over the last year my business has really taken off. I completed my studio and began working with clients. Within 4 months I could no longer handle the workload while maintaining my primary career as a civil engineer so I made the decision to produce records and music videos full time. A couple of my clients had some really good success with some of the work I did, so that certainly helped loading up my schedule with quality work. I even expanded and built a B Room to accommodate the workload, and brought in a couple talented colleagues to produce projects. I work predominantly with pop punk and powerpop artist, though a couple of the associate producers I brought in work with heavier genres.

Last fall a record I did made Billboard which was pretty cool. That helped to quickly cause another log-jam in my recording schedule, allowing me to start hand selecting the projects I wanted to be a part of.

Two of my music videos also got put into rotation on MTV, MTV2, and MTVu, one of them actually hitting #1 and becoming Buzzworthy within a few hours of it's premiere. It sadly became beat out by Wiz Khalifa's Spring Break version of Black & Yellow after holding strong for 4 days.

I guess one thing that really turned me off of this site was the amount of members that really had no idea about any of the subject matter they claimed to be an expert of. Most of the bitter responses came within minutes of my last posts, which tells me those people were more preoccupied surfing forums and threads than making records; so how much practical knowledge could they actually have.

Below are some still shots of the studio right after it was built last year. It's changed quite a bit since then but I haven't had the chance to update any video or pics. We've acquired quite a bit more gear, as well as some better lounge furniture, toys, ect., but you'll get the basic idea.

Here's a link to a music video I did last winter. Sorry for the poor quality, MTV compresses the hell out of it's content. One Less Heart To Break | Patent Pending | Music Video | MTV

To those of you who did help me with useful info (Ethan Winer), thank you. To all the bitter D-Bags that ripped me up, once again, FLAME AWAY. God knows you have the free time to do so.

[Bassmankr]

Congrats on your musical success but regardless thats got nothing to do with building out a comercial space specific for recording and large occupancy. Only that last pic shows some studio space and that only shows some absorber panels on the wall with no absorbsion in the corner. What floor plan did you end up with? Are you actually allowed to have shows/concerts and have legal occupancy in your space? You received some solid advice here like square/cubed recording/mixing rooms (like in your floor plan) are horrible for acoustics so what are you really bitching about? Hows that walking across the stage to get to the bathroom working out for you and the showcase patrons?

[johndykstra]

Nice photos. Very artsy... Now where's the studio? I stand by every comment I made. Including the one I wish I hadn't deleted.

You've alluded to examples of commercial success. That's great. How's the venue? What's your legal capacity? If you'll remember, these were the things of utmost concern... Not whether or not you could mix a song or hold a camera.

[Torea]

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