New Guy... Acoustic problems... needing advice

[cosmegonzalez]

Hi.

Guys this page is simply awesome!

I've been reading some of Ethan Winer's material (I enjoyed your "simplified" explanation video of room acoustics, the model made it very educational and... interesting), as well as the posts from Mr. Kuras and all the other gurus from this forum.

I'm planning to install a mixing room in my appartment with the possibility of recording live acoustic/electric guitars and vocals. No more.

Here's the catch, the room is 10'7" x 10'3" x 8'5" made of painted cement bricks. One of the longer walls is a bunch of wooden closet doors, and I have two small windows. I improvised a sketch of the room to illustrate.

Here's the plan. keeping in mind the tips, rules and theories I've read so far:

- I'm placing the listening position (and monitors) on the longer wall (shorter distance) in order to keep the closet behind me (I'm guessing its better than to have it on one side, due to the simmetry). I know I'm supposed to aim for the longer distance so am I mistaken?

- For HF damping Im installing 2x4 Foam Absorption panels at the first reflexion points on the sides, 1 Behind each monitor, three behind me and one 4x4 on the ceiling.

- Carpeting the WHOLE floor (because ceramic tiles won't do me good).

- Placing 2x8 Rockood Bass traps on all four corners (top to bottom).

- And finally build myself a couple of moveable Foam Panels to surround the vocalist with while facing a panel on the wall (creating an open booth perhaps?), and also place them at strategic places when recording electric guitars (no other live instruments will be recorded).

I'm not aiming for a Professional Studio Sound, just trying to record decent guitars and vocals and guarantee myself aceptable acoustics for the mixdown with the rest of the instruments.

Is this possible? Am I asking too much?

Any corrections I may need or additional tips will be very welcome. Thanks in advance.

[Glenn Kuras]

as well as the posts from Mr. Kuras and all the other gurus from this forum.

Wow I turn 42 this Saturday and now I am Mr.??? lol loltutt

- I'm placing the listening position (and monitors) on the longer wall (shorter distance) in order to keep the closet behind me (I'm guessing its better than to have it on one side, due to the simmetry). I know I'm supposed to aim for the longer distance so am I mistaken?

Nope and I like that the door is behind you as you can open it to help get some of the low end out of the room.

- For HF damping Im installing 2x4 Foam Absorption panels at the first reflexion points on the sides, 1 Behind each monitor, three behind me and one 4x4 on the ceiling.

The foam is not going to do much for behind the monitors or on the back wall. I would HIGHLY recommend mineral wool based panels that are 6" for the back wall. You may or may not need thick panels behind the monitors to help control SBIR (Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).)

- Carpeting the WHOLE floor (because ceramic tiles won't do me good).

That should be fine.

- Placing 2x8 Rockood Bass traps on all four corners (top to bottom).

Check!thumbsup

- And finally build myself a couple of moveable Foam Panels to surround the vocalist with while facing a panel on the wall (creating an open booth perhaps?), and also place them at strategic places when recording electric guitars (no other live instruments will be recorded).

check!thumbsup

One thing I will add is for the ceiling you might want to go with 4" panels to help control bass modes. In a room like yours you really are going to need as much lowend control as you can get.

[cosmegonzalez]

Gotcha!

Taking notes:

- I can take care of the HFs just by placing the Foam absorption panels at the first reflection points on sides (2x4 Foam panels), ceiling (4x4 Foam panel), and carpeting the floor between the drivers and the listening position.

- The rest of my attention has got to be focused on the LFs. I'll Just place four 6" 2'x4' Mineral Wool panels (one on each closet door) to take care of the back, the 4" panels on each corner, and three more panels up front:one behind each monitor and a third one between the both. I'll go 4" with these too.

Ok, Here come the questions:

1. Is 2" thick enough for the foam panels or should I go 4" with them also?

2. When you recommend LF absorption on the ceiling, do you mean replacing the Foam Panels for Rockwool ones at the Reflection point or combining them up in the cloud?

3. Should I leave the 2" air spacing between the back of all the panels and wall/Ceiling?

4. What benefits can I get from Using de Modes Calculator? because these panels will already be taking care of a wide range of frequencies. So how can I put its info to good use?

The modeCalc is really explicit and easy to use, but this other one's got me baffled (cant figure out what the colors represent, although theres an explanation and everything, maybe it's just out of my league): http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

Down where I live, when it comes to acoustics, there seems to be a tendency to blame the highs for sins of the low's. I can see that now, for I was not the exception.

Sorry for the "Mr" thing Glenn, I'm having a bit of trouble asimilating that title myself, so I can relate. And by the way happy B.

Thanks again

[mdjice]

well SIR Kuras you do not look your age !! I guess constant contact with 703 is paying off!!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by mdjice

well SIR Kuras you do not look your age !! I guess constant contact with 703 is paying off!!

lol lol Na I am loving my age.

1. Is 2" thick enough for the foam panels or should I go 4" with them also?

2" will work but I would go with 4" if you can.

2. When you recommend LF absorption on the ceiling, do you mean replacing the Foam Panels for Rockwool ones at the Reflection point or combining them up in the cloud?

Replacing them with 4" rockwool ones spaced a couple inches from the ceiling

3. Should I leave the 2" air spacing between the back of all the panels and wall/Ceiling?

2 to 4" is fine

4. What benefits can I get from Using de Modes Calculator? because these panels will already be taking care of a wide range of frequencies. So how can I put its info to good use?

You really can't. All that thing is telling you is you have problems. Foam and broad band are not tuned which work on a broad frequency range. BTW that is a good thing in small rooms.

Sorry for the "Mr" thing Glenn, I'm having a bit of trouble asimilating that title myself, so I can relate. And by the way happy B

Not a problem, just giving you a little hell. thumbsup

[PaulP]

Originally Posted by mdjice

well SIR Kuras you do not look your age !!

How old is the picture ?

Happy Birthday Glenn ! I know I'm getting old when someone your age looks
young to me (in three days I'll be ten years your senior).

Paul P

[cosmegonzalez]

Well as for the "Mr" title, one can also aim for "Monsieur". The french never go wrong with that. Sounds pretty cool too.

I'll get to work and post some pics guys. I'm planning on buying one of those mics to analyze the acoustics of the room and learn about what the heck goes on, but it will have to wait. Budget's kinda low right now.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys. GLenn, thank you so much. And stay young, I hear aging can make you get old... in time. HEHEHEHEHE.

Thanks again man. God Bless you.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by PaulP

How old is the picture ?



Paul P

The picture is about a year old.

Happy Birthday Glenn ! I know I'm getting old when someone your age looks
young to me (in three days I'll be ten years your senior).

Isn't the new 50 the old 40 or something like that?

Well as for the "Mr" title, one can also aim for "Monsieur".

Maybe I can get the folks at the company to start calling me Monsieur. I kind of like that.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Maybe I can get the folks at the company to start calling me Monsieur. I kind of like that.

I've been calling you "the old man", but if you'd prefer Monsieur...

Frank

[mdjice]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

I've been calling you "the old man", but if you'd prefer Monsieur...

Frank

LMAO!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

I've been calling you "the old man", but if you'd prefer Monsieur...

Frank

Frank can you please step into my office? I have something to tell you.



Donald Trump

[Weasel9992]

...well, yeah but without the cool comb over.

Frank

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Wow I turn 42 this Saturday and now I am Mr.??? lol loltutt

HA!


Still a young pup!

Wait till they wanna' carbon date your hair to know how many candles to put on the cake!



(and knowing there's a case discount involved...)

[cosmegonzalez]

Glenn, don't hold me responsible for all this, I was only trying to be polite.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by cosmegonzalez

Glenn, don't hold me responsible for all this, I was only trying to be polite.

Naaaaa I can take a bit of harASSing.

I see you are from the DR? I was just there (back in May) on a little R&R. Drank way to many of those island drinks. Can't remember the name of it but it was rum mixed with wine and some kind of leaf thing.

Here is myself with one. lol lol



CHEERS!!!!!!!!!

[cosmegonzalez]

Um... I really don't know what was that Glenn. There's a drink here called Mama Juana - Mommy Jane - ellaborated with Rum and herbs, sometimes rum and crabs or shrimp (sometimes the whole thing). People here tend to come up with the craziest drinks man (everyone here's insane), but I think mixing rum and wine is a serious no-no. You must have had a helluva hangover...hahahaha.

The dominican treatment for hangovers is... more alcohol (and music, and dancing, and women...).

"We say the only thing we have invented is a latin drum called "tambora", but you have to beat the hell out of it to make it sound" hahahaha.

[Glenn Kuras]

There's a drink here called Mama Juana

I think that's it!! Not that you put wine with it but you let the herps soak in wine for a few days, drain the wine then add rum.

Mamajuana Dominican Republic

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I think that's it!! Not that you put wine with it but you let the herps soak in wine for a few days, drain the wine then add rum.

Mamajuana Dominican Republic

...and then have your liver removed, and then soak that in rum. Then soak the rum in rum.

Frank

[mdjice]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I think that's it!! Not that you put wine with it but you let the herps soak in wine for a few days, drain the wine then add rum.

Mamajuana Dominican Republic

I read : "let the herpes soak in wine for a few days"...i was like WTF??...

[jhbrandt]

OMG.. you guys crack me up.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by mdjice

I read : "let the herpes soak in wine for a few days"...i was like WTF??...

Mickael...hahahahahahahaha

...but don't get me started on the French.

Frank

[cosmegonzalez]

Yikes! Yikes! Yikes! I simply got no comment on any of this stuff!!!


Anyway guys, last night I finished installing the halogen lights in the room. So tonight I'll start to move the stuff in.

As I was placing the bass traps I could definitely feel the change of acoustics in the room.

At one point I could hear flutter echo when I clapped, so I placed two foam panels on one of the bare walls and presto! Gone with the Wind.

I'm not the type of person who forgets those who have helped accomplish his goals so this is a note of gratitude to all of you, for all the wisdom found in your various posts and threads.

Be sure to check your mailboxes for an envelope enclosing the proper monetary retribution (ehe).

I owe you one, Glenn. I know this is everyday stuff for all o ya.

I'll try to post some pics. It's nothing high end, but I find it cozy. And although my wife has been very considerate, I must admit I have been working near the WAF budget threshold , so further refining will have to wait...

Tonight's the trial of fire, as i'll be playing music while sitting at the listening position. I'll go with the 38%.

Can't thank you guys enough.

[cosmegonzalez]

Um I seem to have bumped into something. The stereo imaging is great, but I can't seem to hear the bass or the kick drums while in the listening position. If I move back towards the door, or stand elsewhere, then I can hear it.

I know the first freq I should worry about is around the 53Hz, due to the wall distance and all. So considering the bass range, and the multiples of this frequency (like 96Hz) it makes sense, right?

I'll try playing around with the bass traps a bit, and see what happens. Other options I've been reading about are rearranging the position of the speakers and moving the listening point more to one side.

I was also thinking that the loss of bass might be because of the lousy quality of my speakers. But although I understand this contributes (I WILL buy better ones), the theory falls appart when I stand a few feet away down to the left and can clearly hear the Lows.

Any other options I should consider?

[jhbrandt]

Originally Posted by cosmegonzalez

Um I seem to have bumped into something. The stereo imaging is great, but I can't seem to hear the bass or the kick drums while in the listening position. If I move back towards the door, or stand elsewhere, then I can hear it.

Standing Waves.
You will need more trapping. Actually 53Hz and it's multiples are a good place to start. What are the 2 X 8 Bass traps?? is it 2 or 4" rock wool? And how do you have it in the corners??

Note: Substantial LF trapping can only be done using several cubic feet of trap. -- The bigger the trap is - the lower the frequency where it works.

Originally Posted by cosmegonzalez

I'll try playing around with the bass traps a bit, and see what happens. Other options I've been reading about are rearranging the position of the speakers and moving the listening point more to one side.

Make sure that your Speakers are not in the wall or corner boundary area. - In your small room, I wouldn't suggest moving from the balanced center, but rather trap the heck out of the room. If you have enough trapping, the bass response will smooth out. -- What's behind the panel doors?

Let me know how it goes.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Standing Waves.
You will need more trapping.

+1. Utterly common in a room that size and shape...you'll have a lot of bass trapping to do because the room is nearly square.

Frank

[cosmegonzalez]

Ok, so far i've got bass traps on corners, front/back walls, and one on the ceiling. All of them are 4" thick with the 2'x4' factory measure (I left the sides uncovered to have more absorption surface exposed. They're held together by fabric, duct tape and a frame in the back.

John, this is my Bass trap panel distribuition:

- All 4 Corners: two traps, one on top of the other, with their back against the corner (that would be, diagonal to both walls). They rise up to 8' so its leaving a gap of 5 inches or so, between them and the ceiling.

- Front: Three. One behind each speaker and another one between them. They're placed right in the middle of the wall (measuring from top to bottom). The speakers -LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE - are placed ALMOST symmetrically in room (they're like 4 inches to the left of the room).

- Back: Two. symmetrically placed. With a space of 1' separating them.

-Ceiling: One. with a 3-5 inch separation from the ceiling. Right behind the foam panel placed on top of the listeing position.

Note that I've placed foam panels on one of the bare side walls, to avoid flutter echo.

So adding more bass trap panels would mean treating the side walls with an additional panel each, right next to the panels I've got at the first reflection points.

And then place another panel on each side, diagonal to the ceiling and the wall. That would leave a 2' wall bare space. If I were to do the same with the front and back ceiling corners (diagonally) I would have covered most of the bare space in the ceiling.

I can also separate the back panels a bit more and squeeze a third panel. The back "wall" is really an array of closet doors (an 2ft deep empty closet with just a bunch of books on the floor).

So Frank, the answer would be any or all of the above?

I'm almost peaking the WAF budget threshold, but what the heck, I'm already in this to the neck. Might as well go all the way to get it right. HEHEHEHE.

If she ever finds out I've been sawing in the kitchen I'm a dead man.

[cosmegonzalez]

By the way, the bass traps are all 4" thick Rockwool .

[PaulP]

Originally Posted by cosmegonzalez

If she ever finds out I've been sawing in the kitchen I'm a dead man.

Like takman painting his cloud on his beautiful marble portico...

Paul P

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by cosmegonzalez

So Frank, the answer would be any or all of the above?

Well, let's put it this way: in the room below I have fourteen 4" traps, five 6" traps and five 2" panels, and it's a few feet larger than yours along the length and width dimensions.



Sometimes that's what it takes.

Frank

[Jeffrey Hedback]

...jumping in on the square room factor

You need trapping in all planes & the center of each wall.

Seems that you have the vertical corners trapped well. Move on to every wall/ceiling juncture you can. It would not be overkill to wrap the whole upper perimeter of the room.

The center of each wall is a primary pressure location for your first order axial modes.

It will take as much of these application as possible. Combined, you can damp these powerful resonances to a good degree.

If you don't address some or all of the wall/ceiling you'll likely always find a "hollow" response at critical freq's.

As integral to the trapping is speaker/ear position. Be patient and keep your standards (meaning don't get fooled by your hard work...make sure the room is true).

You can get there.