Is floating concrete floor necessary?

[Magnum29465]

is floating concrete the only way to get floor isolation? It seems to be all you hear about. Are there no other alternatives?

[Rupert Limehouse]

Originally Posted by Magnum29465

is floating concrete the only way to get floor isolation? It seems to be all you hear about. Are there no other alternatives?

My floor has a layer of conrete paving slabs in it which is much easier (and quicker) to implement than pouring concrete and waiting an age for it to fully set - along with Rockwool, sand, plywood, barrier mat and solid oak - you can see a plan for it here:

Recording Studio London | Acoustics

(Scroll to the 'floating floor' subheading.)

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by Rupert Limehouse

My floor has a layer of conrete paving slabs in it which is much easier (and quicker) to implement than pouring concrete and waiting an age for it to fully set - along with Rockwool, sand, plywood, barrier mat and solid oak - you can see a plan for it here:

Recording Studio London | Acoustics

(Scroll to the 'floating floor' subheading.)

couldn't really see the detail because the zoom got blurry but it seems like a good idea. Is there anyway to get a better view of the details you that pic you posted?

[Rupert Limehouse]

More detail:

Start by wrapping the inside of the walls with fairly dense 10mm neoprene to the eventual height of the floor. The floor should butt up to this, but not compress it.

The layers from the bottom are:

50mm RW6 Rockwool (around 100kg/m3 from memory)
18mm plywood
18mm plywood
50mm concrete paving slabs (use dry sand to fill any gaps and skim for a smooth surface)
18mm plywood
10kg/m2 barrier mat
18mm plywood

Then finish with your (solid, not 'engineered') hardwood flooring of choice.

All layers (other than the Rockwool, but including the final 'show' flooring) should be glued together and screwed at 100mm intervals in both directions so the whole thing is rock solid. Make sure that the gaps in the boards overlap from one layer to the next.

I have a railway track about 20 yards from my studio and passing trains are pretty much undetectable now (and the soundproofing holds up!).

You didn't say what this is for either - you really don't need a floating floor in the control room - it's much easier just to isolate the speakers. But if it's for a live room where you will be doing drums/amped instruments etc, then well worth it.

[petertjed]

Has anybody tried this kind of floor? It looks that it is a good alternative for a massive concrete floor.

Best Regards

Peter

[avare]

Originally Posted by petertjed

Has anybody tried this kind of floor? It looks that it is a good alternative for a massive concrete floor.

If you mean the one above your post, it would be the best use of the materials, ignoring if you really need a floating floor and what its resonance is. The design is acoutsically a triple leaf.

Andre

[fifthflaw]

Originally Posted by Rupert Limehouse

More detail:

Start by wrapping the inside of the walls with fairly dense 10mm neoprene to the eventual height of the floor. The floor should butt up to this, but not compress it.

The layers from the bottom are:

50mm RW6 Rockwool (around 100kg/m3 from memory)
18mm plywood
18mm plywood
50mm concrete paving slabs (use dry sand to fill any gaps and skim for a smooth surface)
18mm plywood
10kg/m2 barrier mat
18mm plywood

Then finish with your (solid, not 'engineered') hardwood flooring of choice.

All layers (other than the Rockwool, but including the final 'show' flooring) should be glued together and screwed at 100mm intervals in both directions so the whole thing is rock solid. Make sure that the gaps in the boards overlap from one layer to the next.

I have a railway track about 20 yards from my studio and passing trains are pretty much undetectable now (and the soundproofing holds up!).

You didn't say what this is for either - you really don't need a floating floor in the control room - it's much easier just to isolate the speakers. But if it's for a live room where you will be doing drums/amped instruments etc, then well worth it.

sorry to hijack but how are those celestial acoustics diffusers?

[petertjed]

Hi Andre,

I'm looking for a solution for my home studio in my new house. The room is 3.8 m by 5.45m and 2.66m high and it on the first floor(second floor in the usa). I will use it to mix and to record vocals, acoustic guitars and small percusion. On both sides i have neigbours, the walls and the floors are 25cm concrete. There is a lot of contact noise, i can hear my neighbours close curtains. I want to build a box in a box. To hire a good engineer for the design is to expensive for me. So i'm looking for an solution for the floor.

Best regards,

Peter

[avare]

Originally Posted by petertjed

Hi Andre,

I'm looking for a solution for my home studio in my new house. The room is 3.8 m by 5.45m and 2.66m high and it on the first floor(second floor in the usa). I will use it to mix and to record vocals, acoustic guitars and small percusion. On both sides i have neigbours, the walls and the floors are 25cm concrete. There is a lot of contact noise, i can hear my neighbours close curtains. I want to build a box in a box. To hire a good engineer for the design is to expensive for me. So i'm looking for an solution for the floor.

What you are describing is a combination of flanking (sound going around the partitions) and impact noise. Doing your floor will do NOTHING for the impact noise transmitted from the neighbour's walls and floors through the walls and floors. My advice is measure what the problem is and then read up on double wall or whatever is determined to be the best construction to address the problem

Andre

[petertjed]

Hi Andre,

I intend to build a room in a room, and would like to build it with a double leafe system, mass air mass. How big does the airgap has to be? I can't find that in the book build it like the pros. An other question is if i can use the concrete wall(25cm thick) between me and the neighbours as the first mass? so it would become:
concrete wall - rockwool- air rockwool - drywall
ytong - rockwool- air rockwool - drywall

How thick and what kind of rockwool should i use?

best regards,

Peter

[avare]

Originally Posted by petertjed

Hi Andre,

I intend to build a room in a room, and would like to build it with a double leafe system, mass air mass. How big does the airgap has to be?

There is no acoustic minimum. It works out to 3.5" between the leafs with standard 2x4 construction

An other question is if i can use the concrete wall(25cm thick) between me and the neighbours as the first mass? so it would become:
concrete wall - rockwool- air rockwool - drywall
ytong - rockwool- air rockwool - drywall[/QUOTE]
That construction is a triple leaf; bad for low frequency isolation.

As far as rockwool goes, use the standard wall insulation, filling the cavity, but not compacting the material.

Andre

[petertjed]

Thanks for the info. I should make my self clearer concerning the walls, the neighbours wall is 25 cm concrete and the internal wall is 10cm ytong. So do i have to make a space between the existing wall and a double leaf construction or can i use the wall as the first mass?

On what kind of material should i build the double leaf? So that they don't make contact with the floor?

Best regards,

Peter

[avare]

Originally Posted by petertjed

the neighbours wall is 25 cm concrete and the internal wall is 10cm ytong. So do i have to make a space between the existing wall and a double leaf construction or can i use the wall as the first mass?

You can use the concrete walls as the first leaf.

On what kind of material should i build the double leaf? So that they don't make contact with the floor?

Who knows? What materials are cheap in your part of the world? Where in th world are you? What is the floor construction?

Sorry, but with out definite answers, nothing can be written to answer your questions.

Andre

[johndykstra]

I remember seeing a video from the guys at Daptone. (A really cool old school vibe studio/label)

Can't find it now but...

They built their live room suspended on old tires. Laid them down horizontally very tight under the en"tire" foot print of the room. The said they filled them up with fabric scraps and any other mushy material they could find. Who's to say if it's perfect...or safe...but apparently it works.

Not something I would recommend, just pointing out another cat skinning method.

[avare]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

I remember seeing a video from the guys at Daptone. (A really cool old school vibe studio/label)

Can't find it now but...

They built their live room suspended on old tires. Laid them down horizontally very tight under the en"tire" foot print of the room. The said they filled them up with fabric scraps and any other mushy material they could find. Who's to say if it's perfect...or safe...but apparently it works.

Not something I would recommend, just pointing out another cat skinning method.

Without proper loading of the spring, i can guarantee that the TL is worse for music than wihtout it. The impact isolation will be improved, bu not the music isolation.

Andre

[petertjed]

Hi Andre

I'm sorry, what specific info do you need to give me a good advice, I hope that this info is good. I'm living in the Netherlands.

I'm looking for a solution for my home studio in my new house. The room is 3.8 m by 5.45m and 2.66m high and it on the first floor(second floor in the usa). I will use it to mix and to record vocals, acoustic guitars and small percusion. On both sides i have neigbours, the walls and the floors and the ceiling are 25cm concrete one internal wall of the room is ytong(10cm). There is a lot of contact noise, i can hear my neighbours close curtains. I want to build a box in a box. To hire a good engineer for the design is to expensive for me. So i'm looking for an solution for the floor and walls.

best regards,

peter

[avare]

Originally Posted by petertjed

Hi Andre

I'm sorry, what specific info do you need to give me a good advice, I hope that this info is good. I'm living in the Netherlands.

I'm looking for a solution for my home studio in my new house. The room is 3.8 m by 5.45m and 2.66m high and it on the first floor(second floor in the usa). I will use it to mix and to record vocals, acoustic guitars and small percusion. On both sides i have neigbours, the walls and the floors and the ceiling are 25cm concrete one internal wall of the room is ytong(10cm). There is a lot of contact noise, i can hear my neighbours close curtains. I want to build a box in a box. To hire a good engineer for the design is to expensive for me. So i'm looking for an solution for the floor and walls.

Thanks, that helps a lot. From what you are describing it sounds like a combination of impact noise and contact noise, like the curtains attached to the concrete vibrating it. A well built second leaf for the walls should work well. Similar construction for the ceiling, attached to the new walls.

The floor is a difficult question. The first question is how much weight can it support? It is not fun to have the floor collapse in the middel of a session. Internal height becomes an issue as well. Assuming the new ceiling takes 15 cm of height and the floating floor 7.5 cm (a very poor floor for LF TL, but at least something for the mids and highs), this leaves ~2.41 m for internal height.

How much sound is coming throught the floor? What do you hear with a mechanic's stethoscope listening to the floor compared to the walls and ceiling?

I suggest you start a separte thread devoted to your project.

Andre

[petertjed]

The ceiling(25 cm concrete) is floor for the secondfloor of my house so i might can be done with a smaller isolation. I will start a new thread;-).

Thanks for the info:-)