Are there any alternatives to floating concrete?

[Magnum29465]

It turns out that instead of a studio shed for my situation it would be better to add a piece onto my home. The problem is I really dont want to pay for or have the contractor float a concrete slab. are there other alternatives that are close to the effectiveness of concrete? I looked at the underlayments and didnt really find anything that seemed like it would work. It seems they are most for foot fall as opposed to isolation.

the site search seemed to give alot of mixed information...

[Rupert Limehouse]

See my posts on a very similar thread here:

Is floating concrete floor necessary?

[speerchucker]

quote: "are there other alternatives that are close to the effectiveness of concrete?"

Close in what way? You haven't said what you are trying to accomplish. (seriously)

Isolation from the outside world, isolation fro the c-room to the main room, or lack of any sympathetic vibrations? Three very different goals.

You also haven't stated what your PROBLEM is with poured concrete, floating floors. So, how can anyone suggest an alternative? It might present the same obstacles.

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by speerchucker

quote: "are there other alternatives that are close to the effectiveness of concrete?"

Close in what way? You haven't said what you are trying to accomplish. (seriously)

Isolation from the outside world, isolation fro the c-room to the main room, or lack of any sympathetic vibrations? Three very different goals.

You also haven't stated what your PROBLEM is with poured concrete, floating floors. So, how can anyone suggest an alternative? It might present the same obstacles.

I'm looking for isolation from the outside world and also isolating the outside from my music.

My problems with floating concrete is the difficulty of installing it and the probability of doing it wrong. not to mention the cost. also my house is in a flood zone so im 4ft of the ground and I'm kind of leary of the weight on the structure.

[speerchucker]

So your studio building must also be 4' off the ground?

That gonna' be TOUGH. What mostly stops LF is MASS. Consider investing is sheet lead.

If you were ground level, I'd tell you to build the walls / ceiling so they don't touch the floor, but you can't do that.

Additionally, a raised floor that isn't super-solid will act like a loudspeaker, broadcasting all LF to your neighbors. You are screwed, blued, and F-you'd. If you simply want an alternative to concrete, use shaftliner (extra dense plasterboard) with void-free plywood on top. It will be about 1/2 as heavy and 1/2 as effective. You can float it on packing cheetohs, if money is tight. (I swear) but don't expect a 30-year life expectancy. - And if you float a floor incorrectly, it can vibrate, really messing with your monitors. The mass-to-spring ratio has to be just right. Do you fully understand these concepts?

Personally, I don't think you need a floating floor. (though again, if 4" off the ground, you do need a MASSIVE floor. Just don't let the edges of your walls touch the floor. Use a rubber gasket or whatever for isolation. -And don't let the studio wall physically touch the house. If you do, floating the floor would be useless anyway.

Best bet with no concrete or massive floor: Do whatever you can on the construction, then work on localized isolation. Build a sand-filled platform for the drums and bass cabinet. Put your big speakers in concrete/sand soffits. Your huge problem is LF bothering your neighbors.

As for keeping outside noise out, that's not typically a function of the floor anyway, so the best methods are already covered elsewhere. Do a room-within-a-room if possible. In fact, do TWO rooms within one outer shell, to get more isolation from studio to c-room. The dead-air between the outer & inner walls will kill a LOT of sound. Don't mess it up when you hang the HVAC.

You may want to hire someone to help you with this, or start reading a lot of books. - The RIGHT books. Alton Everest, BBC stuff, etc. Stop asking questions here! The amount of misinformation to be found here, even from "those who should know better" is SCARY.


Good luck.

Allan Speers

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by speerchucker

So your studio building must also be 4' off the ground?

That gonna' be TOUGH. What mostly stops LF is MASS. Consider investing is sheet lead.

If you were ground level, I'd tell you to build the walls / ceiling so they don't touch the floor, but you can't do that.

Additionally, a raised floor that isn't super-solid will act like a loudspeaker, broadcasting all LF to your neighbors. You are screwed, blued, and F-you'd. If you simply want an alternative to concrete, use shaftliner (extra dense plasterboard) with void-free plywood on top. It will be about 1/2 as heavy and 1/2 as effective. You can float it on packing cheetohs, if money is tight. (I swear) but don't expect a 30-year life expectancy. - And if you float a floor incorrectly, it can vibrate, really messing with your monitors. The mass-to-spring ratio has to be just right. Do you fully understand these concepts?

Personally, I don't think you need a floating floor. (though again, if 4" off the ground, you do need a MASSIVE floor. Just don't let the edges of your walls touch the floor. Use a rubber gasket or whatever for isolation. -And don't let the studio wall physically touch the house. If you do, floating the floor would be useless anyway.

Best bet with no concrete or massive floor: Do whatever you can on the construction, then work on localized isolation. Build a sand-filled platform for the drums and bass cabinet. Put your big speakers in concrete/sand soffits. Your huge problem is LF bothering your neighbors.

As for keeping outside noise out, that's not typically a function of the floor anyway, so the best methods are already covered elsewhere. Do a room-within-a-room if possible. In fact, do TWO rooms within one outer shell, to get more isolation from studio to c-room. The dead-air between the outer & inner walls will kill a LOT of sound. Don't mess it up when you hang the HVAC.

You may want to hire someone to help you with this, or start reading a lot of books. - The RIGHT books. Alton Everest, BBC stuff, etc. Stop asking questions here! The amount of misinformation to be found here, even from "those who should know better" is SCARY.


Good luck.

Allan Speers

I'm actually not building it myself. The contractor just isnt an acoustical expert so I have to explain to him the details of what I want. I was thinking of using paving slabs instead of pouring concrete. I'm not sure how you keep the walls from contacting the floor completly. what holds the wall up at that point? I've heard of putting a substance between the floor and wall, is that the same thing?

[speerchucker]

Originally Posted by Magnum29465

I've heard of putting a substance between the floor and wall, is that the same thing?

Yes. Again, resiliant foam is one way.

Read a few books on the subject, you should be fine. Don't assume ANYTHING about your contractor, when it comes to audio. (sounds like you know this already) The biggest mistake I know of that standard contractor always make concerns physical coupling- both the connecting wall to the house, and when hanging the HVAC.

The other is thinking that a tiny opening won't matter much. (!)

Good luck.

[KyleDiSanto]

If you want to float your floor, but can't do the slab...I would suggest U-boats. 2x4 support with rockwoll inbetween.

One layer 3/4 osb, One 5/8rock or 3/4MDF (Heavy Weight), one 3/4osb on top. That will give you a pretty damn thick and solid floor.

Just make sure to use PL-400 and ring shanked nails or decking screws.

You can also buy Roofing Rubber which is pretty heavy and can act as an extra layer of isolation between layers.



Here is the thing....

You mention Cost, A concrete Slab...even 4-6" is going to be MUCH cheaper than everything I mentioned above (and I'm talking NY prices here).

If you are building an addition onto the house, a structural engineer will tell you exactly what you need to do to support that slab.

If you are just building this out in a spare room, You can still re-enforce the structure with Steal Beams.

Research it. The cost of Metal is down. It will be cheaper and Way more effective.

Then you just build your room ontop of the slab.

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by KyleDiSanto

If you want to float your floor, but can't do the slab...I would suggest U-boats. 2x4 support with rockwoll inbetween.

One layer 3/4 osb, One 5/8rock or 3/4MDF (Heavy Weight), one 3/4osb on top. That will give you a pretty damn thick and solid floor.

Just make sure to use PL-400 and ring shanked nails or decking screws.

You can also buy Roofing Rubber which is pretty heavy and can act as an extra layer of isolation between layers.



Here is the thing....

You mention Cost, A concrete Slab...even 4-6" is going to be MUCH cheaper than everything I mentioned above (and I'm talking NY prices here).

If you are building an addition onto the house, a structural engineer will tell you exactly what you need to do to support that slab.

If you are just building this out in a spare room, You can still re-enforce the structure with Steal Beams.

Research it. The cost of Metal is down. It will be cheaper and Way more effective.

Then you just build your room ontop of the slab.

Thanks,

To be honest I never really researched the prices of concrete compared to other options. I honestly just assumed that concrete was a more costly option.

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Magnum29465

Thanks,

To be honest I never really researched the prices of concrete compared to other options. I honestly just assumed that concrete was a more costly option.

Independent concrete slabs on a sand bed are NOT cheap, that's for certain.

However, everything suggested so far, IFAIK, are NOT being put forth as actually tested assemblies. As in KNOWN certified assemblies as tested by a lab. That's not to say that they won't or don't work. It's saying that these other assemblies are not tried and true known construction methods.

So, do you wanna' guess, or would your situation dictate that you need to KNOW the first time whether something will work within' a known parameter?

If you can afford to use an unverified construction method and rip it out if it fails... go for it. Otherwise, get a PE involved to help you figure out your slab thickness and cheek turndowns.

I'll admit complete bias in recommending Rod. I seriously doubt you could get any better, nor as attentive to detail as Rod is... especially for the money. (Rod's VERY fair!)

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by xaMdaM

Independent concrete slabs on a sand bed are NOT cheap, that's for certain.

However, everything suggested so far, IFAIK, are NOT being put forth as actually tested assemblies. As in KNOWN certified assemblies as tested by a lab. That's not to say that they won't or don't work. It's saying that these other assemblies are not tried and true known construction methods.

So, do you wanna' guess, or would your situation dictate that you need to KNOW the first time whether something will work within' a known parameter?

If you can afford to use an unverified construction method and rip it out if it fails... go for it. Otherwise, get a PE involved to help you figure out your slab thickness and cheek turndowns.

I'll admit complete bias in recommending Rod. I seriously doubt you could get any better, nor as attentive to detail as Rod is... especially for the money. (Rod's VERY fair!)

I get your point and I do have rod's book but im probably 500 miles away from rod gervis. does he do distant consultation? I'm not building a pro studio so theres no need to fly someone in for consultation...

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Magnum29465

I get your point and I do have rod's book but im probably 500 miles away from rod gervis. does he do distant consultation? I'm not building a pro studio so theres no need to fly someone in for consultation...

I'm over 600 miles from Rod. So, yes he does do internet based consultations.

Drop him a line and see what he can do to help you.

Good luck!

[avare]

Why do you think you need the isolation of a separate floor? They are VERY expensive.

Andre

[Magnum29465]

Originally Posted by avare

Why do you think you need the isolation of a separate floor? They are VERY expensive.

Andre

I want to keep outside sound out of the room. minimizing sound that goes out to the house would be nice also... if theres a way to accomplish this without a separate floor please say so and how. that would be a big help...

[speerchucker]

Magnum,

I swore I wouldn't come back to this horrible forum (where the Emperor has no clothes) and I also recommend often that folks get their info from books. However, the following thread has some extremely good info, germane to this topic:


John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - Is a Floating Floor Right For You? Answer: Probably NOT.