Insulated glass vs laminated glass

[Buffstuffbuddha]

So I am getting close to the point where I will need to order my glass that goes between the control room and the tracking room. I have been told from basically everyone to use laminated glass. My question is how much of a difference will there be if I use 2 pieces of laminated glass (2 different sizes of course) vs 2 pieces of insulated glass (this being 2 panes of plate glass sandwiched together with a gap between them that is filled with gas), these of course would be 2 different sizes as well. They would also be wrapped in an aluminum frame around the window.

[tINY]

You could get differentiated commercial windows - but they aren't built for maximum noise isolation (they are pretty good). These will usually have at least the exterior laminated. At least that's what I found when researching... hard to find information.

You really are better off building your own and isolating the frames from what I've read. But, in the end, it comes down to what your local glass shop can get. If you can get a solid aluminum frame to fit a laminated plate, get two and isolate your own.

(I ended up not doing anything when I was looking to isolate a room in my house, so, what do I really know? But there's only a few guys who post here regularly who really know about Isolation and glass is still a black art, I think.)



-tINY

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Buffstuffbuddha

So I am getting close to the point where I will need to order my glass that goes between the control room and the tracking room. I have been told from basically everyone to use laminated glass. My question is how much of a difference will there be if I use 2 pieces of laminated glass (2 different sizes of course) vs 2 pieces of insulated glass (this being 2 panes of plate glass sandwiched together with a gap between them that is filled with gas), these of course would be 2 different sizes as well. They would also be wrapped in an aluminum frame around the window.

Insulated glass panes are going to have less mass, in all likelihood, and you will have a multi-leaf system at your window...
1) room

2) glass pane \
3) thermal space
4) glass pane /

5) Air gap

6) glass pane \
7) thermal space
8) glass pane /

9) room

While the thermal panes will work pretty well, I would go for more mass/less air and have two sheets of glass laminated together for each pane. Be sure to have the same, or slightly more, mass in your window than you do your wall that it's going in.

In addition to more mass, you actually get a stronger piece of glass with a laminate than with a thermal assembly.

As a tip for cleaning the glass... use denatured alcohol to clean the glass. Don't use rubbing alcohol, it has a lot of impurities and leaves a petroleum film that is wicked nasty to get off. Take your time and be very meticulous. Remember, once you put these panes in, you really don't have the ability to clean them again... and you don't want to have to break those seals.

[spm_gl]

Acetone works best for cleaning most hard surfaces. We used it to remove the release agent from moulds for CFC parts, in my previous life. Just make sure you wear gloves, it goes right through the skin.

[xaMdaM]

Jan,

Thanks for the tip... The glaziers who installed my big windows didn't use acetone. They used a good (self branded) glass cleaner and denatured alcohol.

But with all things.. there's usually an alternative solution. (My guess is that as much acetone as they would use, that it's probably a bit too expensive.)

[Buffstuffbuddha]

hey xaMdaM you talked about the idea of room glass themrmal glass and so on. So let me ask you this.
They way it would be set up, the air gap between the windows would be about 19 inches. such as

room

glass\
gas gap ( this is one window just so im not unclear )
glass/

19 inch air gap

glass\
gas gap
glass/

room

would it be cool to just go ahead and get their insulated glass because there is so much air already or should I get the laminated glass because there is so much air already?

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Buffstuffbuddha

hey xaMdaM you talked about the idea of room glass themrmal glass and so on. So let me ask you this.
They way it would be set up, the air gap between the windows would be about 19 inches. such as

room

glass\
gas gap ( this is one window just so im not unclear )
glass/

19 inch air gap

glass\
gas gap
glass/

room

would it be cool to just go ahead and get their insulated glass because there is so much air already or should I get the laminated glass because there is so much air already?

Your ASCII art is identical to what I illustrated... just so we're both clear... I just didn't label the air gap as a gas gap, as in inert argon gas.

The assembly as you propose is technically M-A-M -(19")A- M-A-M, or a 4 leaf assembly.

As far as my understanding goes, a simple MAM will ALWAYS out perform every other assembly.

I would (and did) use a simple laminated glass MAM in my construction; 1" laminated on the Control Room side and 3/4" on the Tracking Room side.



The thing you really need to do is match the mass of the glass to the mass of your walls.

The wall for the CR is 2x8, 3/4" OSB, 2 layers of 5/8" FR Gypsum, plus acoustic treatment, and the TR wall is 2x6, 3/4" OSB, 2 layers of 5/8" FR Gypsum, plus acoustic treatment. So, the 1" laminated glass is equal to the mass of the control room wall and the 3/4" laminated glass is equal to the mass of the tracking room.

Depending on who the manufacturer of the thermal panes is, I would suspect that it is no more than 1/8" glass on each side of the argon gas, if not thinner. This is to account for typical 2x4 framing construction... and in a 4 leaf assembly, would be considerably less effective mass for low frequencies.

If they manufacture the panes in a standard commercial thickness of something thicker than 3/8" (e.g. individual panes thicker than 1/8") you might be ok, but why risk it?

Most standard commercial rated glass is 1/4" laminated glass of two layers of 1/8", and is what I often see touted as the equiv mass of a 2x4 stud wall with 2 layers of 5/8" FR gypsum.

Obviously, you can do what you want, but using residential rated products rarely fills the bill for what is in reality a doubled up commercial application.

Hope this makes sense... (I'm still working on the 2nd cup of coffee)

So, how thick are your walls, and their finishes?

[Buffstuffbuddha]

standard 2x4 studs with double layer 5/8 drywall on both sides. so 5/8 x 2= 1 1/4"

multiply that by 2 for both sides of one wall and that is 2 1/2" plus 4" for the wood. so each wall comes out to be 6 1/2".

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Buffstuffbuddha

standard 2x4 studs with double layer 5/8 drywall on both sides. so 5/8 x 2= 1 1/4"

multiply that by 2 for both sides of one wall and that is 2 1/2" plus 4" for the wood. so each wall comes out to be 6 1/2".

So, your tracking room to control room wall is a 4 leaf wall assembly?

1.) room

2.) 5/8" gypsum
3.) 5/8" gypsum
4.) 2x4 stud
5.) 5/8" gypsum
6.) 5/8" gypsum

7.) 19" airgap

8.) 5/8" gypsum
9.) 5/8" gypsum
10.) 2x4 stud
11.) 5/8" gypsum
12.) 5/8" gypsum

13.) room

That 19" air gap is nice... but.... wtf???

If that's really the case, then I'm gonna say that you've got some serious isolation happening... and that you could have possibly had even more by not putting the 2 layers of gypsum in the gap.

But you prolly had reasons for that wide of a gap. That being the case, you probably could get away with residential windows and possibly save some money... but to gain optimal isolation, probably standard 1/4" laminated on each side is what I would use.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

Sorry it is actually a 13 inch air gap, I dont know why I said 19, its been a very very long last couple of days. The overall thickness is about 26" thick (6 1/2" for each wall and 13" of air) The reason it is such a big gap is because this is for a basement studio so I had to take into consideration building around the center support beam of my house and leaving enough space to build around the water line on one side and the gas line on the other. I also figure that since those few extra inches couldn't really be utilized, I might as well use them as a way to insulate the main wall.

When you say 2 pieces of 1/4" laminated on each side, do you mean 1 pane is 1/4" over all or 2 pieces totaling 1/2" overall (2 pieces of 1/4" per pane)

1/4" glass\
laminate
1/4" glass/

air gap

1/4" glass\
laminate
1/4" glass/

or do you mean

1/8" glass\
laminate
1/8" glass/

air gap

1/8" glass\
laminate
1/8" glass/

I apologize I know I'm being kind of repetitive but I just want to make sure I get everything straight and I'm not throwing money away on glass.

[xaMdaM]

1.) room
2.) Std 1/4" laminated glass

3.) (13") air gap

4.) Std 1/4" laminated glass
5.) Room


Tell me about long days... 6 years since we moved into the new house... 2 years on a building permit and still over 3 weeks away from getting my Certificate of Occupancy!

Arrrrrgh!

[Buffstuffbuddha]

haha wow definitely sounds rough man. Hey I appreciate the help. I think I'll go a little bigger than 1/4" just for piece of mind, but it all depends on the pricing. We'll see tho, thanks again. Will a standard latex caulk do the trick if I'm caulking the front glass from both sides and the back glass on the one available side, or should I use green glue, or should I buy that acoustical caulk that sheetrock makes?

[jazzman31]

From my own experience, a couple of rolls of neoprene works like a charm to seal both windows. I've built 2 studios and used the same double window, but it was an easy matter to strip it down, move and re assemble. The neoprene just keeps the glass off the wood frame. HTH

rk

[Buffstuffbuddha]

hmm, I'll look into that. so you use neoprene and don't even caulk it?

[jazzman31]

correct. They're held in place by wood trim, also with neoprene on the glass side. Trim is screwed to the frame. Mobility was key on the first install. I also used 1/4 and 5/16 glass to cut down on sympathetic resonance. The frame was 3/4 birch plywood doubled, one frame for each window again to keep vibration to a minimum.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

you don't happen to have any pictures you could send me do you?

[bassman]

I've got some pics of details on glass installation in my build thread. Lami is the way to go! 1/2" total (1/4 + 1/4) should be enough for your wall system. Use neoprene to set the glass.

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - AudioGrotto Build Diary

There also should be hard neoprene setting blocks under each pane. Part of the idea is that the glass should not touch the wood directly anywhere to minimize any flanking of vibration into the frame plus sealing it all airtight. In other words, neoprene on all three sides of the glass: face, edge, face.

I ordered neoprene from a local shop custom with sticky on one side. Installing is not hard. Glass installers should have the hard setting blocks with them. Since glass is a commodity, the lami has come down in price for me.....

-ashley

[xaMdaM]

Wish I had gotten more detailed pix of my glass install, but Ashley's is pretty darned detailed... good guide to go by.

Caulk the inside stop edges where they touch the frame. Use a butyl caulk like SilenSeal (yuk) of SC-175, if your stop::framing edge isn't good and tight. You'll want to do this at least a few days to a week before the glass goes in, so it can out gas.

Your glazier should have hard neoprene spacers to keep the glass off bottom frame. They should have either 1/16" or 1/8" thick x 3/4" wide neoprene/butyl glazier's tape, and it should go on the window stop face. (A good pic of that in Ashley's build)

The same glazier's tape will go on the outer stops.

They'll lift the glass in place, then set the outer stops.

If you're stops don't fit tight, you can slip a bead of SC-175 or SilenSeal (yuk) along the outer edge of the glass. However, this is a real PITA, because you'll want that to set up for at least 8 hours before doing a final install of your outer stops.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

wow I read that entire link, that came out awesome. I dig the whole idea of using the neoprene now that I can see how it was done. I never even thought of wrapping the frames with fabric, that definitely completes the look man I love it. Since my studio is in a basement should I toss some silica packets on the floor underneath my windows or will that just trap more moisture? I had my house waterproofed a little while ago, all with the exception of the wall that is underneath my porch but it really doesn't collect moisture there other than what is normally in the ground. The space under my window is a concrete floor, but I have actually never seen it sweat or have any moisture. I was wondering tho, since it would be sealed airtight, if there was a chance of moisture appearing because concrete normally holds or draws moisture from the ground? any suggestions?

[xaMdaM]

That's why I was partially concerned about that (19") air gap that you've made into a 4 leaf system.

It's a bit too late now to go back and remove the drywall and frame a system together that you could actually seal separately to keep moisture out of that air gap.

I can't imagine how much silica gel you'd have to use... maybe 300-400 lbs to last the next 10 years? And even then, I don't know how your construction is on that inside gap... e.g. the ceiling, walls, etc... Dumping a bunch of silica in there could actually cause mold/rot to occur if that gel were to draw moisture from outside.

Lining the whole air gap cavity with plastic would not be smart either... nor would say lining the lower area. You could again, cause mold/rot under the plastic.

I think you're pretty well done with anything you can do with that gap... including put anything like a stretched fabric across the gap... unless you can actually get in there with a nail gun to attach some sort of support framing.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

hmm, do you think I should just put a sealer down on the concrete floor and take it for what it is? I can still get inside the gap because I haven't built the frame for my window yet. So my plan was to just build two independent frames and stretch the fabric over the gap between, pretty much like bassman showed in his post. Or would I be better off building one solid frame so no moisture can get in?

[xaMdaM]

I wouldn't bother with sealing the floor... too much to do, and technically, you'll never get it sealed. Again, a bit too late.

Since your window framing is still a rough opening, there's a bit of a chance you could maybe add a 2x4 perimeter to each side of the wall, then tack a 2nd 2x4 to at least one side.

Then put something like 1x10's or 1x12's on the interior of the gape, securely screwing the 1x to the frame, and to the 2x4's.

Get your gap down to 3"-4" and you can seal it with a rubber/neoprene. I ended up using some left over shower pan liner and sealed it with SilenSeal;

[Buffstuffbuddha]

here is what I'm working with





so you're telling me to bridge the inside of the frame, essentially make a perimeter, with 2x4's. Than take some 1x10 or 1x12 and lay that over top just to make the gap smaller (all the way around of course). wrap the gap all the way around with a rubber/neoprene, (which in your case you used shower pan, which I think my buddy has some of that I could probably use) and caulk all the seams?

I am assuming you said to put the extra 2x4's up just for added support of the 1x10's.

So if I go ahead and get that all taken care of, I could hypothetically build my frame over top of that, install the windows, and not have to worry about moisture ever getting in between the windows because it will be its own completely sealed box?

Thats what I got from your post. If thats what you meant, I like it. It makes perfect sense.

[xaMdaM]

Buff,

You got it, exactly!

And that's just about exactly what I thought your assembly would look like. (nice looking work, btw)

One extra comment... I would try to to stuff at least 1/2" backer rod in all the corners, then caulk with OSI's SC-175 caulk.

I'm just afraid that there's not going to be an easy way to get anything in the way of a angle braced framing assembly in there. Which would be the best. If you can do that, then by all means, do. It's just that the space is so tight, I can't see getting enough room to get long screws in there with a driver/bit... e.g. Long screws in a flat 2x4, then nail the second 2x4.

You documenting your build anywhere? Would love to see other pix!

Max

[Buffstuffbuddha]

edgeofexcess.com go to the photo section and click on building the studio.

I havent updated it in a little while, so it doesnt have pics of the ceiling or the subfloor or even the final layer of drywall, but check it out and you can see what a HUGE mess it was before I started. I'm gonna try to get some more updated pics up this weekend or maybe next. Thanks for all the help man, I appreciate it. I'm on the home stretch now tho, biggest problem is the waiting time for the glass and needing custom sized doors.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

Oatey at Lowe's: 5' x 6' PVC Shower Pan Liner - 40 Mil

hey this is what you were talkin about for the shower liner right?

M-D Building Products at Lowe's: Backer Rod for Gaps and Joints 3/8" x 20'

and this is the backer rod?

I thought my buddy had something like that but he actually had a polyolefin product for roofing, its not quite the same thing. So I figured its cheap enough I'll just go grab some of this. Should I be using treated lumber to bridge the gap, or no because its not directly setting on the floor? Should I wrap the entire bridge, edge to edge, with the liner or just enough to cover the gap and caulk everything else? and for my last question, once I wrap the wood, should I use staples to hold it in place than caulk everything or should I use an adhesive to hold the liner in place, than caulk everything?

[Buffstuffbuddha]

just in case anyone is interested, this is how I took care of this issue. I screwed and glued 2x4s all the way around the inner perimeter, and doubled them up on the opposite side.

[/IMG]



Than I went over the existing frame and the bridge I built with a 1x10 on one side, and a 1x12 on the other side. (The side that I doubled the 2x4's on) I also caulked all the seams.





Than I spread on a construction adhesive on the frame and stapled the liner in place. Then went over all the seams and staples with tyvek tape, and caulked the surrounding seams. I would of preferred to use caulk on the seams and staples of the liner but since I still will need to shim the frame when I put it in, it doesn't make sense to have shims sitting on caulk. Plus caulking makes a big mess when you can't get the seams to lay perfectly flat and tight.



Basically I just did what xamdam told me to do and it came out pretty sweet. Thanks again man.

[xaMdaM]

I could have sworn I replied to your post here... <sigh>

But yup, you got it... and it looks pretty good!

The cavity is sealed, the bridge is stable and you should be good to go.

Next up... I'd wrap some 703 in fabric and put your inner stops in.

The way Rod had me build mine, I put an angle on the inside edges of the stops to hold the fabric wrapped 703. Essentially the 703 is angled to create a wedge so that it cannot fall in or down. A 15 degree angle will be enough of a wedge.

[Buffstuffbuddha]

ok last question for you guys. I've got this 13 inch air gap, and each wall has 2 1/2 inches of drywall on it ( double layer 5/8 on both sides). If you guys have been following this thread you know my situation. My glass company is telling me the absolute biggest they can do is a 1/2 inch laminate (overall thickness). Would I be cool with this on one side and a 3/8 on the other side or should I try to find another glass company and get a bigger size? Given my situation of the frame, what dimensions should i really be going for? i know you guys said try to match the thickness of the wall but i think 2 1/2 inch thick glass is a little excessive haha.

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Buffstuffbuddha

My glass company is telling me the absolute biggest they can do is a 1/2 inch laminate (overall thickness).

You need a new glass company.

Just kinda' amazed that you don't have any glass companies that can get you at least 2" bullet proof glass.

You might try Admiral or Glass Doctor... if they can get anything thicker, then ask them who does.

If nothing else, ask your local bank branch manager for the name of the person to talk to at the main branch, who would know who would replace a broken drive up window.

You get in touch with that person, and you'll get the right guys who can get your 3/4" glass.