Insulated glass vs laminated glass

[Buffstuffbuddha]

ok so I found a few companies that can get me my glass, I'm just waiting on their quotes. For those of you that have installed glass using the neoprene seals instead of caulking, what size seals should I use? The smallest possible?

[dk01]

I have the same question, what is the thickness of the neoprene setting blocks for the glass? And how much does it compress once your glass is sitting on top of it, if at all?

Rod Gervais's book on page 87 specifies the dimensions of his glazing tape of choice, but nothing specific about the neoprene block material.

And how does one size the dimensions of the glass? Do you size them exactly to rough opening or do you account for 1/8" run around say for the neoprene?

This is what I found:
1/8" x 3/4" roll of neoprene setting block material
C.R. Laurence CRL 1/8" x 3/4" Bulk Rolled Neoprene Setting Block Material - 100 ft | SBRL2

(hope this is just piggybacking on the last few posts)...

thanks in advance,

David

ps - I have laminate glass quotes for about 60"x48" @ 1/2 and 3/4 being around $700 total, just fyi, as I found it slightly difficult to get some good quote comparisons going...

[Buffstuffbuddha]

ok so i was told to size my glass so there is a 1/4 inch gap all the way around the glass. Then cut 1/4" thick neoprene by whatever the thickness of the glass is (1", 3/4", etc.). Cut the strips the length of the glass, and place the neoprene on all 3 sides of the glass. When you cut the strips for the front and back faces of the glass, cut them so they are flush with the edge of your stops.
These so far are the best quotes I have gotten.


as well as 1/2 inch laminate glass for 153.00

3/8 for 134.00

What would really be the best combination for me considering I've got the 13 inch air gap?
Obviously bigger is better , but also remember my budget is starting to run low. Is there really a benefit with more panes thus meaning more laminate?

This is a pretty cool article that talks about using neoprene seals for installing glass, it also has a great breakdown of glass ratings and types.
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/e..._Acoustics.pdf

[bassman]

The half inch should do just nicely unless you have 7 layers of gyp up. Don't scrimp on 3/8....

-ashley

[xaMdaM]

Don't over complicate this, nor over simplify...

The thickness of your glass, regardless of the air cavity, needs to match (or exceed) the mass of of the wall that it's going in the opening for.... done.

You have two layers of gypsum on a 2x4 stud wall. 1/2" of laminated float glass is just about right, with 3/4" being more mass. All things considered, I'd go with the 3/4".

As far as which is better... fewer thicker vs more thinner sheets... who knows... but I can tell you this much... I asked the same question, but there's not enough data to show either way. However...

As far as visual - color, clarity, etc.... 2 sheets of 3/8" float glass, laminated together will be optically better. The reason is that they have to melt the laminate between the sheets of glass, in a kiln, to get them to stick together....

In the heating process, thinner sheets of glass will get "waves"... where it melts and gravity allows the sheets to sag in the kiln. Thicker glass does not "wave" as bad as thin glass.

Now, when they go to install your glass......

You need to have the inner stops already built and installed in both walls. You also need to account for the glass thickness, and then make up your outer stops. Part of that thickness should take into account approximately 1/16" for neoprene glazier's tape on each side of the glass. (It's a booger snot from hell, wicked sticky, double sided tape.)

The tape should be applied to the inner stops, first. Then applied to the outer stops.

Clean the glass and install one side. Along the bottom edge, you will want to install two hard neoprene spacing pucks for the glass to rest upon. If you have the manpower to caulk the window edges or stuff the gaps with backer rod, then do so. Otherwise, get your side stops on first, then the top and bottom stops.

Clean the air gap side of the first window like you've never gleaned anything before in your life. Once you put up the other side... you'll never have access to it... so take your time and make it as perfectly spotless as you can.

Repeat for the next sheet glass... except you gotta clean that 2nd piece of glass perfectly, before you pick it up.

[avare]

Originally Posted by xaMdaM

As far as which is better... fewer thicker vs more thinner sheets... who knows... but I can tell you this much... I asked the same question, but there's not enough data to show either way. However...

Long presents test data on this in his excellent Architectural Acoustics. Fewer thicker is better.

Andre

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by avare

Long presents test data on this in his excellent Architectural Acoustics. Fewer thicker is better.

Andre

As always... a tip of the hat to you, sir!

Thank you!

[xaMdaM]

One thing I did fail to mention......

I tried cleaning the latest round of glass going in my doors with acetone as recommended.

OOOPS.... Not very good results for a final cleaning... at all.

However, I am using it as a first cleaning step to cut through any gunk or petroleum based residue. But after that, it ends up leaving a distillate film of its own.

It cleans up pretty easily with a good glass cleaner, though.

[dk01]

Thanks for the install info, helpful to know steps that have worked, etc.

So, what about the sizing, how much do you undersize the window for the rough opening to account for neoprene spacers on the bottom or if sealing all around with neoprene? Do I just take the uncompressed height of the neoprene (should it be 1/8 thick or 1/4" thick?) and account for that and size the window accordingly? Probably making too big a deal out of it, it seems like common sense. Just want to make sure.

A 1/4" all the way around seems like why not just 1/8"?? Or is there some dampening value in having 1/8" thicker neoprene all around the window or under the glass at least??

Also, what the heck is annealed glass? And is it better than laminate?

I only compared my prices with soundproofwindows.com and my local glass guys came to $423 for the same size glass SPW wanted $880 for or something. It is 3/4" thick laminate at 44.5" x 59.75" ... which frankly is reasonable given price of tempered or just plate or float glass. Thoughts?

thanks a million -

David

[xaMdaM]

David,

WHOA... kick in the clutch and down shift a gear, bro...

You're gonna strip a gear if you don't slow down a bit...

I think you're reading a bit much into things. (s'ok... I'm guilty too!)

The glass should be no more smaller than necessary, and the call on the size is based on practical reasoning.

Lets establish a couple of things...

First; There are several edges that we need to identify.
a) The glass has 6 faces, or edges; front, back, and side edges... top, bottom, left and right.
b) The window opening has 4 faces... top, bottom, left and right
c) There are two parts to each window stop that holds the glass in place;
i) The back, (or inside) stop is 4 pieces... top, bottom, left and right. When this is installed, it creates 4 faces that are perpendicular to the 4 window opening faces.
ii) The front (or outside) stop is 4 pieces... top, bottom, left and right. When this is installed, it creates 4 faces that are perpendicular to the 4 window opening faces... except facing the glass.

Minor PITA to drag you down this path... sorry, but just wanna be sure we're all on the same page here... cool?

When the glass is installed, it should set against the inside stop, but rest upon two (or possibly more) hard neoprene "pads". These pads come in several thicknesses. (more on those thicknesses in a minute) You let the glass bottom edge - a), rest on these pads to protect the edge of the glass, and to account for any unevenness in the window frame bottom material - b).

The neoprene glazier tape comes in several thicknesses and widths, just like the hard neoprene pads that the glass rests upon. Common tape dimensions are 1/16" thick x 3/4" wide x 50 ft rolls.

You install the inner window stop c-i)

The glazier's tape is first applied to c-i) and c-ii).

The hard neoprene pads are put in the window frame b), bottom.

Then the glass is put in the window frame, resting on the hard neoprene pads, and pushed up against the double sided glazier's tape. The tape, being a double sided tape, creates an air tight seal between the inner stop c-i) and the inner glass face a).

The next step is to put the outer window stops, c-ii), up against the glass face, and attached to the window frame.

Again, the double sided glazier's tape forms an air tight seal between the outer face of the glass a), and the outer stop c-ii).

As far as "proper sizing of a piece of glass"....

If the frame opening b) measured 30"x40", ordering a piece of glass that was 1/4" smaller (29-3/4" x 39-3/4") would be adequate. When you install the window, that 1/4" gets distributed (hopefully) by 1/8" all the way around the opening.

Then, you would use a 1/8" thick hard neoprene pad on the bottom of the frame opening b) to rest the glass on.

Another factor in determining just how much smaller you call for the glass to be cut, is the thickness of your inner, and outer stops. The thicker the stop, the more slop you could allow for... just as the thinner the stops, the tighter your tolerance.

You need to account/calculate for the total thickness of the glass and glazier's tape when making your inner and outer stops. This is CRITICAL. The glazier's tape does compress some, so you want to attempt to allow for this compression, but not too much, nor too little. if anything, you want to allow too little gap. Otherwise, you'll have to make it up on the trim side... which is a PITA.

My stops c-i) and c-ii) are 3/4" thick, and we called for the glass to be 3/8" smaller than the frame opening b), and it proved to be just fine.

I kinda' screwed up, and had expected the glazier's tape to be 1/8" thick on each side, instead of 1/16" thick. (Poor communication between me and the glazier.) This meant that we had to put two layers of glazier's tape on the stop faces... c-i) and c-ii). It was doable, and it's definitely sealed, but we had to push like hell on that glass to get the seal all the way around, before we put the outer stops in. Then we had to use two guys to push each stop in, while a 3rd put the screws to the stops.


Glass types from wiki: Architectural glass

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"Annealed glass is glass without internal stresses caused by heat treatment, i.e., rapid cooling, or by toughening or heat strengthening. Glass becomes annealed if it is heated above a transition point then allowed to cool slowly, without being quenched. Float glass is annealed during the process of manufacture. However, most toughened glass is made from float glass that has been specially heat-treated.

Annealed glass breaks into large, jagged shards that can cause serious injury, and thus, the reason it is considered a hazard in architectural applications. Building codes in many parts of the world restrict the use of annealed glass in areas where there is a high risk of breakage and injury, for example in bathrooms, in door panels, fire exits and at low heights in schools or domestic houses."

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"Toughened glass (also known as tempered glass) is a type of safety glass that has increased strength and will usually shatter in small, square pieces when broken. It is used when strength, thermal resistance and safety are important considerations. Using toughened glass on automobile windshields would be a problem when a small stone hits the windshield at speed, as it would shatter into small squares endangering the driver and passengers. In commercial structures it is used in unframed assemblies such as frameless doors, structurally loaded applications and door lites and vision lites adjacent to doors. Toughened glass is typically four to six times the strength of annealed glass."

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"90% of the world's flat glass is produced by the float glass process invented in the 1950s by Sir Alastair Pilkington of Pilkington Glass, in which molten glass is poured onto one end of a molten tin bath. The glass floats on the tin, and levels out as it spreads along the bath, giving a smooth face to both sides. The glass cools and slowly solidifies as it travels over the molten tin and leaves the tin bath in a continuous ribbon. The glass is then annealed by cooling in an oven called a lehr. The finished product has near-perfect parallel surfaces.

A very small amount of the tin is embedded into the glass on the side it touched. The tin side is easier to make into a mirror. This "feature" quickened the switch from plate to float glass. The tin side of glass is also softer and easier to scratch.

Glass is produced in standard metric thicknesses of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 19 and 22 mm. Molten glass floating on tin in a nitrogen/hydrogen atmosphere will spread out to a thickness of about 6 mm and stop due to surface tension. Thinner glass is made by stretching the glass while it floats on the tin and cools. Similarly, thicker glass is pushed back and not permitted to expand as it cools on the tin."

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"Laminated glass is manufactured by bonding two or more layers of glass together with layers of PVB, under heat and pressure, to create a single sheet of glass. When broken, the PVB interlayer keeps the layers of glass bonded and prevents it from breaking apart. The interlayer can also give the glass a higher sound insulation rating.

There are several types of laminated glasses manufactured using different types of glass and interlayers which produce different results when broken.

Laminated glass that is made up of annealed glass is normally used when safety is a concern, but tempering is not an option. Windshields are typically laminated glasses. When broken, the PVB layer prevents the glass from breaking apart creating a "spider web" cracking pattern.

Tempered laminated glass is designed to shatter into small pieces, preventing possible injury. When both pieces of glass are broken it produces a "wet blanket" effect and it will fall out of its opening.

Heat strengthened laminated glass is stronger than annealed, but not as strong as tempered. It is often used where security is a concern. It has a larger break pattern than tempered, but because it holds its shape (unlike the "wet blanket" effect of tempered laminated glass) it remains in the opening and can withstand more force for a longer period of time, making it much more difficult to get through."

[Bassmankr]

Just to clear up a few facts about glass. For those who suggest you pick a thickness equal to the thickness of the drywall to acheive an equal mass. Glass is very dense, denser than gypsum. Just compare the weight difference between equal size/equal thickness peices of glass and gypsum, the glass will weigh more (I've lifted enough of the stuff to know LOL). What I'm getting at is you don't need glass to be as thick as the drywall, close is fine because it's denser. I'm guessing that 5/8" thick glass is equal or more mass than 1" of drywall (if you want to get anal look it up and just compare weights for sizes). Next... as far as laminated glass, it's the plastic interlayer that makes the biggest difference in sound deadning. They make that plastic in two sizes, something like .030 and .060 if I remember right, the thicker .060 plastic posts better sound deadning numbers in all the manufacturer's test data so get a price quote with that. Simply the more plastic, the better so more layers of plastic, the better too. How thin of a glass layer you can go with is more of a structural question which depends on how big the lite is (square feet), thus it's unwise to have a large lite of 1/4" laminated (two pcs. of 1/8"). Since we are talking about control room glass here, from a practical and price standpoint, using 2 pcs. of 3/8" to 5/8" laminated should do the trick. If you want to keep the install simple, use glazing tape on the stops and two neoprene setting blocks to set each lite on (at quarter points - 1/4 the total bottom width distance in from outside edge). A neoprene setting block is going to be an equal or slightly larger width than the width of the glass and about three inches long, so if you are cutting your own go with that size as a guide. Using additional blocks or side/top stop blocks are unneeded and could lead to glass breakage. The glazing tape will keep the lite from shifting (nail in your outside stops with tape on them and under some pressure). If you are worried about offgassing of glazing tape in the sealed inside space of the control room window assembly, then just use foam tape and do a silicone caulk wet seal of the outside window assembly. Side blocks are rarely used in commercial construction to prevent side walking of a lite of glass and when used they use a loose neoprene block in the shape of a "W" as not to pinch the glass which would likely cause a stress break in the glass. The exception to the rule is in certain commercial entry doors where using solid blocking in two oposite corners prevents door sag (keeps the door square). Lastly, the main reason for going with the two control room lites each anlged down instead of being at true vertical is to kill glare and unwanted reflections (just makes it easier to see thru).

[Magickman]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Just to clear up a few facts about glass. For those who suggest you pick a thickness equal to the thickness of the drywall to acheive an equal mass. Glass is very dense, denser than gypsum. Just compare the weight difference between equal size/equal thickness peices of glass and gypsum, the glass will weigh more (I've lifted enough of the stuff to know LOL). What I'm getting at is you don't need glass to be as thick as the drywall, close is fine because it's denser. I'm guessing that 5/8" thick glass is equal or more mass than 1" of drywall (if you want to get anal look it up and just compare weights for sizes).

All great info. However, I think what people were saying is to match the density of the drywall, not thickness, just as you are suggesting.

This has really turned into a great, informative thread. I'm getting ready to do my glass, and this thread has really cleared up a few little vagaries in my mind. Thanks to all for contributing!