Odd shaped room - should I buy this house?

[stellar]

Home prices are becoming reasonable again in my area !

I am looking to move out of my rental and buy a house.

I want this house to have a great room in it for recording.

This would be for recording my band, so drums, loud guitars, etc.

The room that would be the potential "recording/jam room" is very weird.

I am looking for opinions such as "run away FAST" or "go for it"

If this room were more normal I wouldn't need to ask here.

The room had an addition built on. its in the corner of the house. So basically it has a sloping ceiling, it is about 12' on one end, then slopes down until it becomes 8', and forms an "L". The long part of the "L" is about 20 feet I think, the short part is about 10 feet. the short part is all 8', and maybe 6 feet of the long part of the L is also about 6'.

put differently, the room probably started out 14' by 10' sloping down from 12' ceilings to 8' ceilings, then they added a bunch more 8' space.

I am concerned that because of the 8' area it will sound bad, and also that the sloping ceiling will cause sounds to bounce back "inwards" at the sound. so if the drums were placed under the highest peak of the ceiling, sound would bounce off the sloped ceiling focused in on the mics. this might sound really, really bad.

any thoughts?

thanks in advance

[bpape]

Are you going to be mixing in this room too or is it just recording? Sounds to me like it would work very well for recording given proper treatment.

Any chance of some pics?

Bryan

[stellar]

unfortunately i would be setting up a control room in a separate bedroom that is 8' ceilings all around. the house is a 4/2.5 so we would have a master, jam room, control room, and an office (no kids). we would install wood flooring before moving in. thanks again.

[drpgleeson]

Designing studios is a serious hobby of mine, mostly for fellow film and television composers (range has been 125K to 600K) and for my own studios (I owned Different Fur in SF for many years) and now my own private studio. I'm not an acoustical engineer, but my studios all sound very good and are based upon a lot of reading and practical experience. So: I don't know everything but I do know something.

I think you're beginning with a problematic space, and while you can probably make anything work to some degree, why start out at a disadvantage? Low ceilings are just a killer and when you're in them they just don't sound good. Since in most cases you'll be doing something to eliminate the parallelism between floor and ceiling, this will take away another 12" (absolute minimum) to 2' from the net height. So even if you start with an eleven foot ceiling, which I think is probably a practical minimum, you end up with a 9 to 10 foot net ceiling, and that's probably a height you don't want to drop below.

The L shape is another difficulty, although not absolutely a deal-killer. But in conjunction with so much of the ceiling being so low, I think you need to pass.

Perhaps you can modify the existing structure? Without a floor plan and elevations of course I can't really offer specific advice. If this house is otherwise appealing, why not invest in a couple of hours of consultation with an established studio designer in your area. Have him come out and see what you have now and what it could be potentially. A lot depends upon a number of things you haven't mentioned (distance from neighbors, etc.) and that he could suss out and advise you on--, probable existing STC of current walls and potential for improvements, etc. etc. If it's on an upper floor (the varying ceiling heights make me think this could be the situation) that's another problem--once sound gets onto a floor it's just going to radiate everywhere and nothing in the world is going to stop it. There's a famous case in SF of a high-end condominium project that had through-floor sound transmission problems and they spent something like 50K per unit trying to solve the problem after the fact and couldn't--they were sued by their buyers, and lost.

Many studio designers (and particularly in this recession) would be happy to give you an opinion for a reasonable consultation fee--if you luck out (as I did many years ago) you'll get a nationally recognized designer who will find your limited budget challenging and refreshing. For a few hundred dollars more you might even get a 1/4" scale plan that you can follow and build yourself. John Storyk did that for me with my first studio, and it began my 40 years long interest in studio design. Who knows where this might lead you!

If you pass on this house I'd look for a situation where:

a) the studio would be located on the lowest floor
b) where if the existing ceiling height is under 11 (which is very probable, of course) there is the possibility of digging down another 3-4 feet in the studio area and rebuilding the room from there
c) some distance from neighbors--neighbors hate live music even more than recorded rap or various 4 on the floor genres.
d) possibility of constructing floating floor and double walls around entire studio space (ceiling would also need to be treated for sound iso, but this would be an integral part of the process of building a ceiling not parallel to floor)

[stellar]

ok I got ahold of a pic of this room. this is taken pretty much from the corner of the room so this is it. it is on the ground floor. the lot is large so transmission is not a problem. I just want it to sound good !! I plan on replacing the carpet with wood floors of some sort. You can see where the addition was made because there is still a beam going across on the ceiling.

[Weasel9992]

I liked everything drpgleeson had to say (though I don't think eliminating parallel surfaces in small rooms is always a good idea), but I think you can make that space work. The 8' side isn't ideal, but the slope up to 12' is great. There's a good bit of glass in there...you'll want to cover that up, then treat the room in the usual ways. From there you can address the problem spots.

I'm not a huge fan of carpet in recording rooms, especially with all that glass too, but it's not *wrong* or anything.

Frank

[stellar]

Frank,

the carpet would be replaced with wood flooring. The slope that you think is great is actually a concern to me....I am concerned that the slope will cause strange reflections back "in" on the mics. do you think you could explain a bit more why you think the sloping part is good ?

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by stellar

Frank,

the carpet would be replaced with wood flooring. The slope that you think is great is actually a concern to me....I am concerned that the slope will cause strange reflections back "in" on the mics. do you think you could explain a bit more why you think the sloping part is good ?

Simple: it's better than a flat ceiling. You'd get a lot more reflections back into the mic from a flat ceiling than you will a sloped ceiling. Plus you're getting more room volume that way vs. a flat ceiling. Just be sure to set up your mix position so that the ceiling slopes up behind you.

Frank

[stellar]

this room would be for recording instruments

[axisdreamer]

Hey stellar,

I have a room with a slope ceiling that goes up to a peak in the middle and then down again.I put the drums right in the center under the peak and have had no problems. At the peak is around 12 or 13 feet high. I'm no acoustic expert but thought I would give some input.

[summersoundswell]

omg. nice! Looks huge like it should be the living room. I'd be curious to see the rest of the house.

So you're going with the natural reverb sound for all your instruments? I'da thought you'd keep the carpet to soak some of that up from the drumkit, etc. looks like a pretty big room.... but what do i know? (not a lot please enlighten me)

[drpgleeson]

So you're going with the natural reverb sound for all your instruments? I'da thought you'd keep the carpet to soak some of that up from the drumkit, etc. looks like a pretty big room.... but what do i know? (not a lot please enlighten me)[/QUOTE]

Well, none of us know a lot about acoustics when we're starting out. But a little reading will be a big help--a lot of what seems intuitively to make good sense (like carpeting to soak up the drumkit) turns out to be pretty disastrous. It's an odd little science!

I highly recommend Alton Everest's Master Handbook of Acoustics, which is available on Amazon, etc. It's a legendary book; very readable and yet filled with everything you need to know to design a good recording room at whatever level.

I will have to say that a lot of other written stuff that's available--and particularly from folks trying to sell you easy solutions for acoustic problems--is just bunk. Even some other books that I've never read terribly negative comments about aren't completely reliable. Everest's section on Quadratic Resonators alone is worth the price of the book and then some. I've been designing quad resonators for ten years using the formulas Everest provides and the results have been extremely gratifying.

But whatever you do, please, please don't assume that you can design a decent acoustic space without studying the fundamentals of acoustics. I've been around recording studios as user, owner and designer for 40 years now and I remember the bad old days when you just fired up a joint and began building. There was one guy--I won't mention any names--who actually had a very "successful" career, first on the West Coast and then all over the world, designing high-end recording rooms that were just truly awful, without a single exception that I know of, and I've recorded in nearly a dozen of them. Ugh. Read first, then design, then build. It's not rocket science, but it is science.

Pat

[KingUgly]

The space is okay. The sloping ceiling is an asset. I'd probably divide that room in two along the ridge line.

However, I highly encourage you to do your research. Everest's book is good, and so is "Home Recording Studios - Build It Like the Pros" by Gervais. This is an area most people take lightly. Only a small amount of research will pay off in spades. Once you know how things *should* be done, you can compromise when and where you need with educated choices.

An education in this area will go a *very* long way, and you'll thank yourself in the end.

[Zombie H]

sorry to bump an old thread but this had some good info in it and it stopped me from making a duplicate thread

[Zombie H]

does anyone have advice on what to look for when house hunting for a great (or at least good to start with) acoustic space in a residential property?

I'm going to end up getting a 3-4 bedroom free standing house non-attached

from this thread I'm now thinking

high ceilings
first floor room (or basement with high ceiling)
approx 600-800 sq ft room
slanted ceilings/ non-parallel walls
sound isolation from street/neighbours

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Zombie H

slanted ceilings/ non-parallel walls

I would avoid that if a mixing room. Slanted ceiling and non parallel walls are great if you building from the ground up but symmetry is very important and to find that with slanted walls or ceiling in a pre made room, that is correct, is not easy. Stick with the largest room you can find with good symmetry and you will be fine.

[Zombie H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I would avoid that if a mixing room. Slanted ceiling and non parallel walls are great if you building from the ground up but symmetry is very important and to find that with slanted walls or ceiling in a pre made room, that is correct, is not easy. Stick with the largest room you can find with good symmetry and you will be fine.

thanks for the response , what would you consider to be a large room for mixing/monitoring at home?

I don't really want a live performance area so much as a control room with as big a sweet-spot as possible. If I get a house a 500-800 sq ft room is pretty big and should help provide a good listening environment with some treatment.....

also what is an optimal room shape? Is a long rectangular room considered preferable versus a perfectly square room when they both have the same square footage?

Is there something I can listen for in a room when i go to look at a house or something to look for in the construction of a room?

[Glenn Kuras]

Generally speaking you want to avoid rooms that are squ or multiples of it. Meaning you would not want a room that is 10x10 or 10x20. Also you want to keep in mind you don't want the width (nor the height) to be less then 1/2 the length or you could start to have a tunnel effect in the room. An example would be 9 wide x 8 high and 24 feet long. Basically just find the largest room that is rectangular that has good symmetry.

[MeltdownZA]

Originally Posted by Zombie H

sorry to bump an old thread but this had some good info in it and it stopped me from making a duplicate thread

Hehe are you thinking of buying the house too?

[andrebrito]

That's an interesting room for a tracking room, apart from the carpet and the big window pane which can be easily and cheaply solved by using curtains

[Zombie H]

Originally Posted by MeltdownZA

Hehe are you thinking of buying the house too?

lols my agent just placed my bid via silent auction worried

im gonna buy a house finally next year so naturally my first concern was how to get something suitable for music

[Zombie H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Generally speaking you want to avoid rooms that are squ or multiples of it. Meaning you would not want a room that is 10x10 or 10x20. Also you want to keep in mind you don't want the width (nor the height) to be less then 1/2 the length or you could start to have a tunnel effect in the room. An example would be 9 wide x 8 high and 24 feet long. Basically just find the largest room that is rectangular that has good symmetry.

thanks a lot for the info I'm going to buy a book or two also I think on setting up rooms before i really start house hunting

how can i explain to my friends that while I now have a house I do NOT have a living room?

[stellar]

wow funny to see this thread bumped. I ended up not buying this house. We decided to think about it over the holidays, and someone bought it during that period. we were shocked! also very let down, to this day. The house had a creek running through the back yard, it was totally wooded and private. The house was what we call "80's style coke dealer", we would have updated it and it would have been very "hip and young" when we were done. It took us about another year and we finally bought another house with very similar aesthetics. We paid a bit more, and had to put a lot more into it. the yard isn't as nice, but we love our new house. My drive to work is also now 3 minutes (would have been 30) so I get an hour of my life back every day which is priceless, but I also don't listen to music in the car very much anymore. Most importantly, though, the room is WAY better!! check it out: Need help with choices and placement - photos, measurements, and clip included