Mixing in a Rectangular living room, can't use traditional looking acoustic treatment

[jlsgear]

Hi all,

I mix in a rectangular room ... about 10 x 20 ft ... no real room treatment ...

What would you say would be the best chance at getting a decent mix ... would it be facing the monitors down the long side of the room ? or facing them on the short side ??

My gut is telling me fewer reflections and bass problems would occur if I placed the monitor 1/3 the distance from the wall and facing down the long side of the room ...

I am mostly worried about the bass response ... I am using mid field spks ... ie. the Paradigm Studio 20.

Thanks all ,

Jls.

[R3altruth]

Why not treat the room?

Dinner.. maybe some dancing...

Seriously though.... go at least get a small Auralex roominator and some mopads

[Gulliver]

..paging Ethan Winer..

[jlsgear]

I can't treat the room ... really ... its my living / dining room ... no way the better half will let me treat it ... even for a few hours ...

So lets just say the room will remain untreated for arguments sake.

Any good educated guesses on monitor placement ??

jls.

Originally Posted by R3altruth

Why not treat the room?

Dinner.. maybe some dancing...

Seriously though.... go at least get a small Auralex roominator and some mopads

[R3altruth]

Yea, I agree that if you wanna know about Bass response in a room... Ask Ethan

[Arkitekt]

Monitors shooting down the long side, don't back em up into the corners.

BTW, there's plenty of ways to do "spouse-friendly" treatments.

[Kyle S]

yeah man. go check out a furniture store and get some ideas of what would work.

[KRStudio]

Placement just like you said (1/3 down room) will be the best. Keep yourself and the speakers in a small size triangle and mix low to keep reflections to a minimum. Should not be a huge problem, especialy in a living area with furniture to break up reflections. Not ideal but not horrible either.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

My gut is telling me fewer reflections and bass problems would occur if I placed the monitor 1/3 the distance from the wall and facing down the long side of the room

Yes, more here:

How to set up a room

And you really do need bass traps. They can be attractive, or portable, or both. DIY for cheap or commercial for nicer. Pull them out to mix, and put them away when company comes over.

--Ethan

[rishi]

Whoa! Great article Ethan. Thanks for the good read.

[jcatena]

> about 10 x 20 ft

You are unlucky if one dimensions is near an integer multiple of the other. Probably you are going to need a lot of bass trapping to minimize stationary waves.
Of course Ethan's advice will help a lot, I only wanted to tell you that your room may be specially difficult because its dimensions.

[LdC]

If treatment is a no-go, I'd recommend that you check out IK Multimedia's ARC System, assuming that you are mixing on a computer. If not, take a look at KRK ERGO.

[RTR]

set up your speakers facing the long way..you will be fine..I did it for years and got great results after I learned how to work with it. it would be bad if you had a square room..it's good that yours is a rectangle!!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by LdC

If treatment is a no-go, I'd recommend that you check out IK Multimedia's ARC System, assuming that you are mixing on a computer. If not, take a look at KRK ERGO.

Forget ARC - No matter what the liars in the IK Multimedia PR department may tell you, you cannot electronically compensate for a bad listening environment. It simply does not work - the laws of physics prevent it.

Yes, you may be able to compensate a one VERY SPECIFIC spot - but if you move even an inch or two from that position (which, I must point out, is less than the distance between your ears) the "compensation" will actually make the response much worse. This is because room modes run in bands through the room like the interference patterns of ripples bouncing around a pool and reinforce and cancel each other according to the reflections and the frequency of the waves. By compensating one (or even several) spot(s) you are exaggerating the differences everywhere else.

It is possible to compensate for defects in your PLAYBACK SYSTEM, but not in your room.

I really wish that unscrupulous software companies like IK Multimedia would stop lying in order to sell product. I get really tired of typing this explanation every time the subject comes up.

The only solution is room treatment, especially in a room with your dimensions. If you don't bass trap your room your mixes will not translate to other environments. You might as well try to mix standing on your head in a corner with earmuffs on.

BTW, I notice you didn't mention ceiling height - if it happens to be 10 feet you have REALLY BAD problems; you have serious problems just with the 20X10.......

[jlsgear]

Even with room treatment ... wouldn't the bass be uneven depending on the song's Key and EXACT mixing position ?

I always thought the bass wavelengths were so long that the bass level's and eq'ing would be better left to the mastering stage ??

js.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

you cannot electronically compensate for a bad listening environment. It simply does not work - the laws of physics prevent it.

No kidding. Irrefutable proof here:

Audyssey Report

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Even with room treatment ... wouldn't the bass be uneven depending on the song's Key and EXACT mixing position?

Yes, though bass traps improve that enormously. But you'd need a lot of bass traps to completely remove all positional changes in low frequency response.

--Ethan

[Arkitekt]

Doesn't matter, you can mix in any room and translate well, all that matters is that you really know the room. Just like any monitors, you have to spend a good amount of time getting familiar with their sound. Don't get obsessed on room treatment, and personally I like a little liveness to a mixing room. Shops like Sweetwater has lots of less expensive items that will work fine, and you can DIY as well with good results.

[LdC]

The reason I suggest ARC is because the poster says he cannot acoustically treat his room.

[Arkitekt]

Ah, right, this was the OP with a spouse that wouldn't tolerate any treatment, so many of these posts... Well, like I said before in the thread, look into spouse friendly treatments. Show her the options and I'm sure you'll be able to work something out.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Gulliver

..paging Ethan Winer..

is that a warning signal?


anyhoo square room it can be done
you can mix at very very low volumes to keep down reflections
also use of headphones when eqing and fine tuning. No room
imperfections in heads.
If you really mix loud and have a sub you may need some treatment

there is alot of stuff you can do without spending
alot of cash. I suggest rockwool or owens corning 703/05
and you can put up some diffusors/bass traps

there is a simple formula to determine how much you need
and where to put them

Ive heard just as many good mixes mixed in bedrooms as I have in real
studios don't get too caught up in all this foolish crap people are going to sell you

Drum room? now thats a different story

call this guy
Owens Corning 703 : Ready Acoustics!, Hear - Sound - Better


DIY Bass Traps: Complete Do-It-Yourself Kits : Ready Acoustics!, Hear - Sound - Better

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by LdC

The reason I suggest ARC is because the poster says he cannot acoustically treat his room.

I saw that but it's a silly excuse. Bass traps can be put on stands and moved in and out as needed. He moves his speakers and DAW etc in and out, no?

--Ethan

[joeq]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

I can't treat the room ... really ... its my living / dining room ... no way the better half will let me treat it .

you can get traps that will install behind paintings or photos so that they appear to be part of the decor

most companies that make traps make them on stands. you can set up a semi-circle of traps on stands




if you can set up your gear in the Dining Room, you can set up that and put it away when you are done.

[Radiogal]

Cutting the corners will be a good thing o start with in any room treatment situation.!

[LdC]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I saw that but it's a silly excuse. Bass traps can be put on stands and moved in and out as needed. He moves his speakers and DAW etc in and out, no?

--Ethan

Sure, if that's a workable solution for him, then he should go for it. And if he does move his gear in and out of the room, then ARC probably isn't a great idea, as the speakers will be in a different place every time!

But if he genuinely can't use any sort of treatment - as he states - then ARC is an option worth considering. Note that I didn't say that ARC is better than acoustic treatment or that it has the same effect

[chromatronic]

if you have to mix in your living room iam not sure that getting a perfect mix is that much critical for you ? if really the quality of your mix is important for your work, put auralex and tell your better half that you will get her a better home after you become rich with your perfect mix

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Arkitekt

Doesn't matter, you can mix in any room and translate well, all that matters is that you really know the room. Just like any monitors, you have to spend a good amount of time getting familiar with their sound. Don't get obsessed on room treatment, and personally I like a little liveness to a mixing room. Shops like Sweetwater has lots of less expensive items that will work fine, and you can DIY as well with good results.

No, you can't, not if the response changes every time you move your head or shift your body a few inches.

A mixing room should have a certain amount of liveness. Many people, obviously including you, don't understand room treatment and think that damping the hell out of everything with over applications of foam is the way to go. Wrong. You need a combination of absorption (about 1/3 in most rooms), diffusion (perhaps another 1/3), reflection, and adequate bass trapping, which is a specialized type of absorption that kills room modes, AKA low frequency standing waves.

Without proper room treatment your mixes will not translate. Period. VERY rarely will you encounter a room that doesn't have serious problems and can be used as-is. These rooms are generally not rectangular and are in fact shaped more or less like designed control rooms. The chances of actually having one of these rooms by accident are slim to none, and even so they still require a certain amount of treatment.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by allencollins

anyhoo square room it can be done
you can mix at very very low volumes to keep down reflections
also use of headphones when eqing and fine tuning. No room
imperfections in heads.
If you really mix loud and have a sub you may need some treatment

Room modes are not the same as reflections, at least in the sense you're talking about.

Mixing and EQing on headphones does not work well. Only one brand of phones gives reasonably realistic spatial placement (Ultrasone) and no headphones give really realistic EQ balance, especially in the low end. A lot of bedroom mixers do use phones, but a lot of those are always posting those "My mixes sound funny" threads on forums, too.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by LdC

Sure, if that's a workable solution for him, then he should go for it. And if he does move his gear in and out of the room, then ARC probably isn't a great idea, as the speakers will be in a different place every time!

But if he genuinely can't use any sort of treatment - as he states - then ARC is an option worth considering. Note that I didn't say that ARC is better than acoustic treatment or that it has the same effect

Originally Posted by LdC

The reason I suggest ARC is because the poster says he cannot acoustically treat his room.

It doesn't matter. ARC doesn't work. It's a fraud and a waste of money. See the article Ethan referred to.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by Arkitekt

Doesn't matter, you can mix in any room and translate well, all that matters is that you really know the room. Just like any monitors, you have to spend a good amount of time getting familiar with their sound. Don't get obsessed on room treatment, and personally I like a little liveness to a mixing room. Shops like Sweetwater has lots of less expensive items that will work fine, and you can DIY as well with good results.

I couldn't agree more. So many people seem to preach that a decent mix is completely impossible without room treatment. My clients would argue that. Yes you'll have to learn the room and compensate for the imperfections but it's not impossible by any stretch to get a good mix. You might have to make a few trips to different playback sources to make sure you're getting good translation but it can be done. That being said room treatment will make your life easier. I'm just starting to dive into treating my room after almost 3 years in the same place and I have no doubt it will make mixing much easier but doing so without is not an impossible task. No matter what John Eppstein says.